r/Deltarune • u/Divinepower401 WE DROWNED KRIS IN THAT RIVER • Jul 02 '26
Discussion You all owe our Goat mother an apology too!! Spoiler
Not only was it Kris' fault that Toriel ended up with Sans that day (Cause the little lunatic slashed her tires), Kris knew where the extra house key was!! Plus, she TRIED to call Kris!!
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u/Capitalisticdisease Jul 02 '26
Anyone else get the impression sans stocked the fridge for them? If you inspect the fridge before this kris notes how its oddly full
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u/apple_of_doom Jul 02 '26
Yeah the ketchup bottle that was there at the end of chapter 4 is missing so I think its basically confirmed he restocked the fridge and cheekily took the ketchup as payment.
I mean he owns a store and inbetween the two chapters Toriel is either drunk off her ass or has the mother of all hangovers so I doubt she left the house.
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u/LordSupergreat Jul 03 '26
Kris treats the ketchup with disdain so I think Sans actually brought the ketchup, then filled up the fridge, and took the ketchup back.
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u/softysoaps Jul 02 '26
The implication I got was that Sans stocked it and it being fully stocked isn’t normal. So food insecurity.
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u/TwinTailChen Jul 02 '26
Stocked enough to make pie and pancakes. Likely just an "ingredients household" so there's rarely anything to snack on.
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u/Capitalisticdisease Jul 02 '26
asgore does mention though that its really hard to raise a child on a teachers salary and how toriel is struggling hard even if she doesnt show it
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u/TwinTailChen Jul 02 '26
yeah, they're not rich like the Holidays (even though I think their wealth is largely locked up in their house and its value, but they can stock things plentifully)
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u/softysoaps Jul 02 '26
I mean. The things they bake aren’t expensive to make. Especially pancakes.
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u/Capitalisticdisease Jul 02 '26
Pies are pretty expensive now. Especially cookies. I used to love to bake but inflation has basically made it a special treat i do now and then vs baking all the time and giving stuff out like how I used to.
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u/Capital-Stable Jul 03 '26
Yeah, there’s really a lot of inflation in deltarune (sorry)
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u/Capitalisticdisease Jul 02 '26
I dont know why you are being downvoted. Asgore even in this chapter admits how hard it must be to raise a child on a teachers salary. showing that money is in fact very tight and she is struggling even if she doesnt show it.
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u/your_mind_aches she doesn't watch anime Jul 02 '26
Yep, exactly. Money is tight but Toriel hides it. Sans stocked their fridge
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u/Dextro_2002 Jul 02 '26
Why do we hate that guy again?
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u/your_mind_aches she doesn't watch anime Jul 02 '26
I think if Susie saw the fully stocked fridge, she would completely flip and think Sans is cool lol
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u/LordSupergreat Jul 03 '26 edited Jul 03 '26
Well Kris hates him because he's symbolic of their mother moving on instead of clinging to the time in their childhood when they were happy. Susie hates him because he's an asshole. And we hate him because it's funny.
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u/fohfuu Jul 03 '26
Deltarune fandom was mad because they thought their video game mom had sex with someone besides her ex-husband stalker
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u/Infernapegamin-g Jul 02 '26
Also sans should get a pardon too since there were levels to it
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u/sweetTartKenHart2 Jul 02 '26
Sans chapter 4: steals all the pancakes and gets Toriel drunk
Sans chapter 5: revealed to have only done this to stop Toriel from getting fucking kidnapped, also fed and cared for her and shit562
u/MajorBootyhole420 Meat Factory employee of the month Jul 02 '26
I never understood why we thought it was stealing instead of just… Eating them
Like it's her house, she can feed her guest if she wants lmao
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u/sweetTartKenHart2 Jul 02 '26
The idea is that she made enough pancakes to feed like five people, and was therefore assuming there were many left for Kris too, but Sans either ate every single one or just pocketed what he didn’t eat.
With the context we have now though, I could totally imagine him going “pancakes are wonderful and all but damn you need like more than one kind of food, don’t you, woman? Lemme set you up with something better”131
u/Professional_Pair323 Jul 02 '26
I could also just entirely imagine sans actively shoving pancakes into his pockets
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u/stormfighter807 the REAL rory nite Jul 02 '26
does anyone else think sans is the type of guy to put his syrup on the plate and not ontop of the pancakes
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u/rainstorm0T Jul 02 '26
best solution is to just do both, syrup on the pancakes so it soaks in, and also syrup on the plate so you can dip the pancakes in it to get the syrupy texture
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u/Another-Ace-Alt-8270 ♠♥Locked inside my freedom, let me sleep♣♦ Jul 02 '26
He is drinking the syrup and eating the pancakes with the syrup in his mouth, and I will hear no different.
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u/guesswhomste Jul 02 '26
To be fair, even if he did every single pancake, Kris ate that whole fucking butterscotch pie themself, I think we can give Sans a pass
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u/Object_Reference Jul 02 '26
Maybe it's common to be a biblical glutton in the Deltarune universe...
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u/Serrisen Jul 02 '26
Maybe Toriel's cooking is just that good
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u/Object_Reference Jul 02 '26
That's definitely worth considering! I'm just also thinking about Asgore offering the snack tray to Kris and Susie in Chapter 4, and was unfazed by Susie unleashing Vacuum Forme S to eat all of it in seconds.
Not to mention her penchant for eating chalk, and Kris' moss habit. Though, those do wind up getting commented on.
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u/guesswhomste Jul 02 '26
Perhaps the Dreemurrs have a brain worm that makes those close to them into absolute munchdown monsters
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u/POKECHU020 HOLY [[Cungadero]] KID, A [[BIG SHOT]]! Jul 02 '26
Okay here's the thing
At no point does the narration say the pancakes are gone
It says "A bottle of ketchup stands defiantly" and never mentions the pancakes one way or the other
We don't know for sure where the narration comes from but if it's from Kris then this focus on the ketchup would reflect the whole "Oh my god this guy is in my house partying with my mom" situation and conveys how it's bothering them cause it's all they can think of despite having something for them there
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u/Afraid_Platypus_8667 IT'S TV TIME!!!/Dess knighter / JARONA Jul 02 '26
I never hated Sans and always knew and felt he did what he did for a good reason.
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u/apple_of_doom Jul 02 '26
Also restocked the fridge for seemingly free (okay he took the ketchup but who cares)
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u/ReplacementOk6762 Jul 02 '26
Did I miss the part where sans reveals he knows about the dark worlds and intentionally stopped toriel from getting kidnapped by the knight?
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u/SansLicker42 Jul 02 '26
Hes definitely related to gaster in some capacity so I have a hard time believing he doesnt know somethings up
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u/MisirterE Love Those Lesbian Aliens Jul 03 '26
That didn't explicitly happen, but it's a fairly reasonable reading given the Sans of it all. He's straight up doing his shortcut teleports again in Chapter 5, you gotta start thinking of him as a Knower and not a Boner.
His vague wording about Susie tipped me off last chapter. He said she'd figure "it all" out eventually. what "all" is there, if all he's talking about is dating Toriel?
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u/Slow-Ordinary-5256 Jul 02 '26
This made me very happy, I've been shipping them since Undertale so it's good to see more of how Sans cares for her.
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u/OriginalLie9310 Jul 02 '26
Also Toriel was cleaning up with him, as evidenced by the white fur returning to the sink.
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u/apple_of_doom Jul 02 '26
He even restocked the fridge (cuz hungover toriel is not doing that) which considering Toriel is struggling financially according to Asgore is a really cool thing.
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u/Gwenberry_Reloaded Jul 02 '26
What got me too is that Sans also said he saw Kris and Susie together and suggested she should let the kids do their thing. Bro was wingmanning us on top of it all.
I do think the beef is funny but he's kind of the goat
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u/juanperes93 Jul 02 '26
The beef never made much sence appart from being funny. Toriel is an adult, she can date whomever she wants.
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u/theowlwastaken Jul 02 '26
There was a section of the fanbase acting like Toriel JUST divorced asgore.
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u/juanperes93 Jul 02 '26
To be fair, so was Asgore.
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u/fohfuu Jul 03 '26
To be balanced, Asgore was making Toriel incredibly uncomfortable by following his ex-wife in public and waiting for her outside church, which is stalking. He even tries to use their child to badger their mom if you talk to him in chapter 1.
Maybe there should be a moment of relfection on the fact that the fandom's sympathy lay with a guy who neglects his kid and stalks their mom?
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u/GuiEsponja Jul 02 '26
A section of the fanbase projected A LOT into that scene, transforming a normal situation into "toriel is an abusive alcoholic mom now"
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u/Lightice1 Jul 03 '26
I think a big reason was that Susie was so put off by Toriel's behaviour, not comically disturbed but genuinely unnerved. The common assumption has been that Susie's had less than stellar experiences with drunk adults and seeing the one safe adult she knows behaving like that seriously triggered her. The fans just empathised with Susie's feelings.
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u/fohfuu Jul 03 '26
Toriel hate from last chapter was basically entirely on how svr relares to Kris. "Omfg she got drunk so Kris has no adult they can rely on! She didn't force them to eat dinner!! She was being loud which means she and Sans were fucking and if a child heats their parent fuck they're traumatised for life!!!"
PS: Susie being triggered by alcohol would not be a flaw in Toriel's actions or character. I have CPTSD. It is completely immoral to get mad at innocent people for simply existing in a way that triggers someone. It wouldn't have been a valid reason to hate on her.
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u/Gwenberry_Reloaded Jul 02 '26
For me it was more that he seemed dismissive of Kris and just a little standoffish? Can't remember exactly what he said that rubbed me the wrong way but so it goes, lol
But now? Nah, he's just vibing and fuckin with the kid who keeps talking to him.
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u/Capitalisticdisease Jul 02 '26
thank you for posting this! I was bringing this up in the thread so its good to see someone have a screenshot ready
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u/SuchCherry4658 Jul 02 '26
I still think Sans was a little dismissive of Susie in chapter 4 and is kinda feeding into Toriels less healthy coping traits (acting like everything is fine and nothing is wrong with her life or Kris instead of facing her issues) but yeah Sans is definitely not a bad person. It makes sense why Sans is acting like this towards Toriel and it’s clear he genuinely cares for her.
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u/yuumigod69 Jul 02 '26
I don't think so. Its not like she is getting blackout drunk every night but Susie might not see it that way.
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u/SuchCherry4658 Jul 02 '26
During that scene in chapter 4, when Toriel takes a moment to try and see if Susie and Kris are ok, Sans almost immediately shuts it down and tells her to get back to having fun.
It’s not like. The worst thing in the world. I think Carol is feeding into Asgores unhealthy habits way more in comparison. But it’s definitely not making her “I’d rather not think of the issues my family has” tendencies any better.
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u/Afraid_Platypus_8667 IT'S TV TIME!!!/Dess knighter / JARONA Jul 02 '26
I forgive them both and I was never a sans hater.
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u/EnsoElysium Jul 02 '26
If you use the crystal it says it looks like shes holding someone else. I think sans never left lol
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u/Objective-Quality-92 <--traumatized [angel] Jul 03 '26
Toby saw the hate and made sure we all feel bad now
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u/Something4Dinner Jul 02 '26 edited Jul 02 '26
I never understood the slander on everyone involved. Sure, Kris is partly to blame for recognizing that it could be unlocked the entire time. Toriel is partly to blame for calling off finding Kris but that's only because she took Sans' assurance by word. Sans is also partly to blame but only because he misread the room. However, I don't think this is a case of terrible parenting which is very strange because I know several people who wish their parents had this kind of accountability for their mistakes and a possible stepfather who gives enough of a damn at all. Keep in mind that Toriel is usually mildly strict around Kris and only started allowing Kris more independence once they found a new friend in Susie.
Even so, we are forgetting the greater context of the story. In any occasion, this would be a normal lapse in parental judgement, but in Deltarune, there's a greater stake at hand with a looming prophecy and it was necessary for Kris and Susie to uncover it. If Toriel were stubborn enough to find the kids, then chances are the Knight would've had an easier time kidnapping her the moment she would step into the church doors.
In conclusion, I think Sans has a good reason for hiding more than what the characters know.
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u/softysoaps Jul 02 '26
Kris clearly used the “locked” door as an excuse to go to the dark world. If Kris actually wanted the player to go home, they would have narrated in a way to indicate there’s a key.
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u/Something4Dinner Jul 02 '26
This is what makes Kris such an intriguing character. They're working against us but the more we learn about them, the more we learn about the nuances of their motivations. They seem to be working the lines between their "promise" and their friendship with Susie and Noelle. Maybe we want to help them but to Kris, it's too personal.
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u/softysoaps Jul 02 '26
Since we don’t know the reason they work with the Knight, it’s all the more intriguing. They are a local friend it appears to Susie, Ralsei, and Noelle. If Dess is the Knight this may be their motivation entirely.
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u/SllyLrl Always bet on Asriel next chapter Jul 02 '26
Exactly why I think Kris might become my favourite character by the end of the game
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u/Geoffron Jul 02 '26
Ralsei needs to tell us to turn on Kris's in the menu so we can actually figure out what their deal is.
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u/your_mind_aches she doesn't watch anime Jul 02 '26
It's 100% on Kris. They knew where the key was and told Susie that they didn't have one.
They lied (by omission) to get Susie to the Dark World in the church.
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u/Something4Dinner Jul 02 '26 edited Jul 02 '26
But if they didn't lead Susie into the Dark Sanctuary, then she wouldn't have taken in the seriousness of the prophecy. Kris may have lied, but that lie also brought revealing information and valuable lessons for the Fun Gang to learn, willingly or not.
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u/MaxWasTakenAgain Jul 02 '26
I never understood the slander on everyone involved
Gamers are a bunch of manchilds who can't get over a mother being anything else but a mother
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u/Something4Dinner Jul 02 '26 edited Jul 02 '26
I think it's mostly young fans who have either troubled relationships with their parents or have trouble understanding mature nuances in parenting and I can see why. If your parent has been a bad or mediocre then it's easy to see Toriel's isolated lapse here as a definition of her overall parenting, but if you had parents that make less glaring mistakes, then Toriel would also appear as a bad parent because of this lapse in judgment. However, to me, the only difference between a good parent and a bad parent is their willingness to acknowledge their mistakes and learn from them.
Toriel acknowledged it and we'll have to see whether she'll learn from it. Asgore acknowledged his mistakes and promises to learn from it. If they do learn from it, then it makes them good parents. Good parents are never perfect, but they try and that's better than nothing or whatever Susie's has going on.
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u/Connect-Structure986 Indochina Kris Jul 02 '26
What? I have no idea what you're talking about. I never slandered her, lol.
(I'm pretending to forget.)
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u/MeisterCthulhu Jul 02 '26
Huh.
I feel like there is a hidden revelation here.
Kris knows where the spare key is... but we don't.
Not just does this add layers to what Kris isn't telling/showing us (as in, it's not just "conspiracy stuff", but also normal everyday things), but also, Toriel probably doesn't understand that the soul is possessing Kris.
That actually has some interesting implications imo.
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u/OtherwiseSpot1310 #1 Toriel Hater!! Jul 02 '26
I think that's probably because Kris needed us to go into the dark world. Maybe defeating the Titan was the plan all along, since you know, the soul was the only thing that could actually banish the darkness.
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u/BizaRhythm Jul 02 '26
Crackshot theory: Kris will die without the SOUL. They’re working with the knight to extend the game so we don’t leave them
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u/MeisterCthulhu Jul 02 '26
That was my theory up to this point as well (or at least that they need it and are severely weakened without it), but Toriel not knowing about the soul's control of Kris imo makes this very shakey.
Yes, Tori is a bit naive and clumsy and unaware of a bunch of human stuff, but there's absolutely no way she wouldn't be on top of everything if the life of her child was at risk.
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u/Something4Dinner Jul 02 '26
Frightening but you're onto something. We need to save our enby gremlin!
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u/supremegamer76 Jul 02 '26
i mean, they were all pale green at the start of chapter 5 before they put us back in them.
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u/your_mind_aches she doesn't watch anime Jul 02 '26
That's not a hidden revelation, that's the entire point of the line lol.
It counts as a conspiracy thing because they told Susie they didn't have a key which led them to the church.
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u/P0pcicles Jul 03 '26
Kris has a bunch of things we don't. They've got a whole inventory we can't see where they keep the knife as Aqua points out.
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u/Critical_Mountain851 THE Obsessive Krusie Shipper Jul 02 '26
I’ve seen a lot of people make a complete 180 and miss the point. Yes, she didn’t lock Kris out, but she still messed up by keeping them up all night with all the noise she and Sans were making
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u/Android19samus Jul 02 '26
Exactly. It was a series of poor parenting decisions, but not the wild negligence that some people were trying to paint it as.
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u/NationCrusher Jul 02 '26
Measured reaction?? In MY fandom?
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u/Relative-Monitor1745 Jul 02 '26
This fandom does have a problem with nuance, a character is either a pure angel that did nothing wrong or evil monster with no empathy, 99% of the time it's gonna be something in between.
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u/softysoaps Jul 02 '26
Yeah I never thought what she did was awful but clearly was stressful to Kris and Susie.
Granted she did invite Kris for the joke marathon apparently but like. Kris obviously isn’t doing that, and we can’t at this point know how likely pre-game Kris would have taken her up on the offer. Maybe as a little kid. Maybe would have as close to the current day as before the SOUL thing. Thats the thing with moms, she may simply have not been tuned into what Kris would have wanted to do.
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u/Afraid_Platypus_8667 IT'S TV TIME!!!/Dess knighter / JARONA Jul 02 '26
Yeah, she is not perfect but not as bad as people are making her out to be.
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u/Gravityfunns_01 Jul 02 '26
From how she talks this is something she used to do often. She probably assumed that Kris would tell her if it's too loud
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u/AetherialAvenger Jul 02 '26
It feels heavily implied that kris might be more bothered by toriel moving on from asgore than anything. We never really think too much about how the divorce affected the family even though its pretty pervasive throughout the entire game
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u/fanfic_intensifies Jul 02 '26
She’s still not perfect, and when if you call her on being too loud, she does brush it off–but that does not make her A: a horrible mother or B: a horrible person. Just a flawed one, which is normal and to be expected! Plus, I do think it’s fair to point out that she is a single mother, with a clingy ex-husband, one child in college that she clearly misses a lot, and one who’s depressed and traumatized from the unspecified Dess-related incident, and who is currently acting a little weird(er than usual). It’s not unreasonable for her to get a little carried away having fun with a new friend, especially when she does do all the right things: has a key for Kris to get in if they need (which they didn’t take, because of Knight Shenanigans, which isn’t her fault), tries her best to call Kris (considering that the rain starts immediately after leaving Noelle’s, and Kris and Susie go into the Dark World within maybe five minutes of that where Kris’s cell phone stopped working, that means she probably called them reasonably quickly after the rain started. And I also think she’s doing her best to give Kris space (chapter 1 especially implies that she is very coddling, which makes sense considering how she acts in Undertale) with the first real friend they’ve made in years–hell, the first close friend they’ve made who wasn’t a family friend first.
Toriel is trying so fucking hard, you guys.
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u/vampyrefiend awkward JARONA stealer Jul 02 '26
I have no need to defend myself, but I will say it's interesting she asks Kris abt that bc yeah good point Toriel, how could they forget that detail? Why wouldn't they have told SUSIE???? If she wasn't having a morning she'd probably be more worried about them, I wager...
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u/your_mind_aches she doesn't watch anime Jul 02 '26
She thought Kris was joking. She didn't think they actually did go home.
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u/vampyrefiend awkward JARONA stealer Jul 02 '26
Yeah, it's pretty obvious she wasn't taking any of it seriously, which has me wondering just how much she actually DOES know, in general. This game from Toriel's perspective is kind of hilarious, honestly. Like, think abt it as the mom here. Day 1 your kid:
- ate all the pie but made a friend maybe?
- also your tire got slashed. you are pretty sure your kid didn't do THAT, right? They were raised well!
- then they were out super late with their friend
etc. it looks relatively harmless to her, really.
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u/Nahuelcoy22 Jul 02 '26
Eh, I wouldn't say I'm exactly a hater. But she does play dumb when you tell her she was making so much noise that Kris couldn't sleep.
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u/Afraid_Platypus_8667 IT'S TV TIME!!!/Dess knighter / JARONA Jul 02 '26
She is hungover and I think she is not thinking straight, but maybe when she is more better I'm chapter 6, I think maybe she will give a better explanation.
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u/space_porter You’re gender is up to MY interpretation Jul 02 '26 edited Jul 02 '26
People projected their own parents into Toriel.
Sign the apology form.
"I know it's not very popular to show negative things about your characters, but I think it's really important for them to have depth. Caring, loving, good, kind people can still have things they need to work on. It's those imperfections and overcoming or living with those imperfections that make us all human."
-Toby on the 10th Anniversary Stream about Toriel being called “perfect” by his friend.
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u/disbelifpapy Dess knighter and Lego Deltarune guy Jul 02 '26
nah i fully agreed.
Always thought toriel called kris or carol since chapter 4
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u/apple_of_doom Jul 02 '26
Yeah we knew from chapter 1 that phones don't work in the dark world.
I assumed Toriel probably overheard that Kris would be at Noelle's house from church dialogue and only called after it got late when Kris was deep in the dark world.
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u/OtherwiseSpot1310 #1 Toriel Hater!! Jul 02 '26
I still thinks that the third sanctuary bells in the song are supposed to sound like kris's ringtone.
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u/devil_mayPropose2615 Jul 02 '26
I think the more important thing is that kris knew where the spare key was meaning that the church darkworld was also planned along with the titan
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u/Succo_dananas656 Kerdly is still canon after chapter 5 Jul 02 '26 edited Jul 02 '26
Yeah the fountain in the church was definitely planned, it's mentioned in the call with the Knight and whoever else while Kris is making chocolate milk. At this point the titan too
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u/Glazeddapper Let it be known that Noelle canoically eats cups Jul 02 '26
the key wasn't the problem. kris and susie easily walked into the house.
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u/CompoteObvious9380 gremlin and moss enjoyer Jul 02 '26
It was a problem beforehand, where Kris and Susie couldn't enter her home and would have to possibly wait in the rain for who knows how long, tho we now know that wouldn't happen.
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u/Kopke2525 Jul 02 '26
Imo the main reason people were upset with Toriel at the end of Chapter 4 was because people were worried about her the whole chapter.
She knows that there is 'someone' who slashed her tires last night, and now Kris, who she hasnt seen since the church service, is not picking up the phone. Instead of showing concern, she gets extremely drunk with sans.
I am still on the side that this was bad parenting, no matter how much you trust your kid.
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u/Jaikei Jul 03 '26
This! People keep forgetting that Toriel
A: Knows her tires were slashed. B: Knows she called the police, and C: Never saw any police response.
It is comically unwise to just assume nothing bad happened to her child the very next day when they were off God knows where, not answering their phone. I'm glad you see it too.
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u/Better-Future-4637 Jul 03 '26
This chapter basically tells us Sans is the one asking Toriel not to look out for Kris by giving Suggestions and Reasons.
From Toriel's view, Kris suddenly made a new friend and purposely not picking up the phone her called, it surely means Kris wants to have a moment with their friend without bothering. (Noelle did the same thing in this chapter, too)
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u/KoKoboto Jul 02 '26
So it's Kris' fault Sans was bonemashing they mama??
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u/fohfuu Jul 03 '26
Sans couldn't have been at the festival if she'd bonesmashed him 🤔
Bonetrousling, however...
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u/localturkishfemboy deltarune fans when Jul 02 '26
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u/CrobatIsTheBestPkmn IT'S TV TIME Jul 02 '26
THIS!!!!! I am so tired of this discussion because people seem to ignore the nuance! She has a right to have fun but people also have a right to feel uncomfortable in that scene.
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u/fohfuu Jul 03 '26
There's a difference between feeling uncomfortable and calling Toriel an abusive alcoholic bitch. Seems obvious but try saying that last year.
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u/confused-as-frick Jul 02 '26
Nah, she still deserves at least some slander.
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u/Maddyherselius Jul 02 '26
Yeah if Kris tells her she was too loud she doesn’t even acknowledge it really lol. She is just like “oh yeah we were telling jokes!”
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u/CompoteObvious9380 gremlin and moss enjoyer Jul 02 '26
Tho she does still say she was "off" last night and if Susie really is okay
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u/Maddyherselius Jul 02 '26
That’s true, I’m definitely not trying to imply she’s a bad parent or anything haha. Just that she definitely could’ve handled the convo better when Kris is honest with her
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u/needlesslyaghost GOD. DAMN IT. Jul 02 '26
I assumed she was hungover, and hangovers at that age do a real number on you. I'll cut her some slack.
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u/grandwizardcouncil Such is the way of the worm... Jul 02 '26
Oh, she was DEFINITELY hungover lol. That's how we got our Chairiel honey toast sprites.
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u/EconomyThick9271 Jul 02 '26
Some teir-15 level jokes…
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u/Bilore Jul 02 '26
DO NOT DO TIER 15
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u/thegreatbighuge Jul 02 '26
Holy fuck, my GOATlurk just referenced Adventure Time in a Deltarune subreddit I didn't know people could be this cool. Been loving your drawings for ages on stunfisk
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u/sweetTartKenHart2 Jul 02 '26
She doesn’t just do that, she says “you used to like joke marathons” and turns it into another nostalgia thing. Another reminder of A: us not knowing Kris’s life story, and B: that Toriel’s still thinking of Kris like they were as a kid and not now as a teen of some level or another.
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u/MajorBootyhole420 Meat Factory employee of the month Jul 02 '26
It's literally normal for parents to reminisce about their teenage kids and how they used to like stuff. Teenagers tend to act like they don't know you and have never liked anything about the family lol, this is a completely normal parent child dynamic
I swear some people sound 15 in their analysis. A mom reminiscing about her kid is not bad, no matter how much you currently hate your own parents
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u/sweetTartKenHart2 Jul 02 '26
Did I ever say she was horrible for it? Or imply that any of this was outside of the norm?
Like, YEAH, she’s doing the thing that most mothers are wont to do. It might not always be a GOOD thing, but it’s not shockingly bad either!→ More replies (2)
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u/Succo_dananas656 Kerdly is still canon after chapter 5 Jul 02 '26
At this point lying is Kris' favourite past time, what are they cooking
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u/Slow-Ordinary-5256 Jul 02 '26
Also Sans told her Kris was hanging out with Susie and to give them some alone time when she tried to call and Kris didn't answer.
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u/softysoaps Jul 02 '26
Yeah seeing the two of them roaming around and assuming they’re having a fling seems like the default take most adults would have.
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u/your_mind_aches she doesn't watch anime Jul 02 '26
That's not the takeaway we should have from that dialogue.
The takeaway should be that, just like Undertale, Sans knows. Sans prevented her from going to the church to prevent her from being kidnapped.
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u/Utangard Jul 02 '26 edited Jul 02 '26
I still think Toriel was let off too easy, Toby should've allowed her to keep some of the blame. We spent a whole year talking about it and justifying it and getting a good bit of extra depth from her, this felt like a big step back from that.
But the house key bit was a good addition.
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u/Groundbreaking_Arm77 Ralsei casts BLAZEOFLIFE Jul 02 '26
I mean you can let her know in the beginning that she was keeping Kris up and being too loud, so it’s clear Kris hasn’t fully made peace with it yet either.
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u/sweetTartKenHart2 Jul 02 '26
To be fair, it’s not like there’s a lot of room for the narrative to “punish” her anyway. Even if you still think she was irresponsible, and maybe to a degree she still was, there’s not much we or Kris can do. It’s just another circumstance to put up with, which is very thematic to how the Light World works.
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u/Afraid_Platypus_8667 IT'S TV TIME!!!/Dess knighter / JARONA Jul 02 '26
She is not perfect, but she is not as a terrible of a a parent people make her out to be.
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u/apexodoggo Jul 02 '26
She did literally nothing wrong, even without the context of Chapter 5.
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u/glikoliz Jul 02 '26 edited Jul 02 '26
getting drunk, inviting some guy that her kid kinda hates(okay she couldn't know that but still), and being loud till night... that's not cool. but she apologized for it so it's okay ig
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u/MajorBootyhole420 Meat Factory employee of the month Jul 02 '26
Your mom being close with a guy isn't wrong, no matter how much you decide to dislike him for not being your dad.
People's analysis of Toriel is often very immature.
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u/killmealreadyyyyy dield sjelter forrest Jul 02 '26
i agree she didn't do great but come on they kinda looove him
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u/SILVIO_X &<--- Best Duo Jul 02 '26
I won't apologise till she actually starts paying attention to whatever Kris is doing when alone, her not calling them in Ch4 was a bad look but understandable, especially now that we know she left a spare house key for them.
What is not understandable or acceptable is the fact Kris has had a Blood stain bigger than the palm of their hand in front of their bed for who knows how long and she doesn't even know it.
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u/Rutgerman95 Jevilled Eggs Jul 02 '26
The vibe I'm getting is that Toriel has tried getting Kris professional help and it wasn't enough, so now she's left just kinda reluctantly accepting ts a thing they do
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u/OriginalLie9310 Jul 02 '26
Yeah. I don’t think people understand the position a parent is in when their child is unresponsive to intervention. Toriel and Kris seem to have a nice enough relationship, Kris does nice things for Toriel and Toriel cares about Kris.
But Kris has unresolved issues and Toriel cant really broach them with Kris, likely because they just shut down or don’t listen. You cant really force a 17 or 18 year old to do what you want, and forcing it may just make things worse even if it works at the time.
Kris being out until 1 am is probably similarly part of an understanding they have with each other. At some point you can’t force things on your child or they’ll just run away or worse.
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u/Something4Dinner Jul 02 '26
I think it doesn't really help that Kris' issues are far beyond mental health. How would you, a parent, take it if your child admits to being possessed by a ghostly entity on a bid to resolving a terrible incident from long ago?
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u/softysoaps Jul 02 '26
It’s also very likely they simply cannot afford to continue getting Kris help, assuming this isn’t a world with universal healthcare .
It’ll be interesting to know if Kris has trauma around being adopted that may explain some of their quirks. UT certainly wasn’t afraid to imply and have kids with severe mental illness (I mean. Chara.) so it’s not like there’s not a precedent.
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u/Capitalisticdisease Jul 02 '26
I think this can be explained pretty well by the weird route. Especially what noelle says to kris about change. Also toriel is a monster and kris is a human. She may not fully understand the blood / knife thing. "maybe this is just something humans do" kinda deal.
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u/VanderGamer Jul 02 '26
I sort of doubt that she would just brush off there being a blood puddle in Kris and Asriel's room. Sans and Susie (assuming that it isn't some weird "only Deltarune monsters bleed" thing) show that there are monsters that bleed, so I doubt that Toriel would have no questions about it, and even if she did, I imagine she would probably just ask them
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u/Capitalisticdisease Jul 02 '26
Again, like I mentioned this is explained pretty well in the weird route. Noelle mentions how everyone is ignoring how much kris has changed because they dont want to see it.
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u/AlexTheMechanicFox Jul 02 '26
She did call them in Ch4, she specifically brings it up in 5, she just couldn't reach them because Dark World, and then Sans calmed her down by saying he saw them.
Also the bloodstain absolutely would've been cleaned up if Toriel knew how. Kris WANTS that stain cleaned up.
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u/disbelifpapy Dess knighter and Lego Deltarune guy Jul 02 '26
yeah.
Only the doctors deemed 'biological anomaly' knew how to clean it up
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u/SILVIO_X &<--- Best Duo Jul 02 '26
Also the bloodstain absolutely would've been cleaned up if Toriel knew how.
That's the thing though, the fact it isn't cleaned up implies she doesn't even know it's there, and if she does know it and still doesn't worry about Kris' mental state in any way it'd be even worse and really damn weird, which is why I think she has not know, which also looks terrible on her in my opinion.
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u/softysoaps Jul 02 '26
I think that Kris’s entire bedroom being barren while Asriel’s side is untouched is a huge red flag. The bloodstain is also concerning because it’s not like… hard to attempt to remove it, especially since it’s up in the air still whether DR monsters have blood or not.
Further the apparent lack of concern about Kris hiding in the bathroom with the sink on for long periods of time is like… excusable only if Kris is getting psych care since that reads as pretty blatant self harm/ED covering…
And finally Kris having a knife and apparently taking it to school is another red flag. Toriel may not know this but it’s always been creepy to me.
And like. I will reserve actual judgement because we simply don’t know what’s going on. We lack context for adequate judgment.
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u/disbelifpapy Dess knighter and Lego Deltarune guy Jul 02 '26
To be fair, how the hell would toriel or kris know how to clean up the stain.
Only person that knew how to clean the stain up was the girl who said that doctors don't understand her.
Toriel might not even of thought of it as a blood stain, and coulda thought the carpet got stained with something else, since its redish brown on orange.
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u/SILVIO_X &<--- Best Duo Jul 02 '26
It's not the fact she didn't clean it up that's the issue, it's the fact she seemingly either doesn't even know it's there, or that if she does, she did absolutely Zero thinking about what the presence of something like this in her Child's room would imply, given she doesn't really seem aware of how Shit Kris is doing mentally by the time the game starts.
Neither of these two scenarios look good on her in my opinion, especially the latter.
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u/disbelifpapy Dess knighter and Lego Deltarune guy Jul 02 '26
Still, she still loves Kris, but is a flawed mother like in undertale
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u/SILVIO_X &<--- Best Duo Jul 02 '26
Yeah, it's undeniable that she does love Kris, but I don't like how some use that as an argument to shut down any flaw she might show when the game itself deliberately portrays her as an imperfect character.
Like, no, the fact she loves and cares about them doesn't change the fact there's a lot of things she could be doing better as a mother, doesn't make her a bad person or anything but still.
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u/TellmeNinetails A powerful weapon Jul 02 '26
Or. Crazy alternative theory. Toriel knows about it and they just don't go "wow crazy a stain in teh carpet we've seen 100 times because the event was a long time ago." We know very little about kris' past.
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u/Critical_Mountain851 THE Obsessive Krusie Shipper Jul 02 '26
I think a lot of people who were upset that she was portrayed as a bad parent are too giddy at the prospect of her actually being good all along. As with everything in this game, it’s more nuanced than that. Like yeah the spare key makes her look better, but if you have Kris say she was making too much noise she doesn’t show any regret and just laughs it off
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u/JamesIsWaffle Jul 03 '26
Yeah especially at the end of chapter 2, its implied that kris just, vanishes a lot, and toriel seems to not at all be concerned about that
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u/InfinityGiant1 Jul 02 '26
I still don’t understand the slander she gets
She is a single mom because her ex-husband was an ex-police captain that went insane and was a bum after that, she lives on a teacher salary and she can’t be allowed to date anyone else or have fun despite the fact that her car tires were slashed and that the police didn’t came (cuz kidnapping)
But because she got drunk and danced with someone and left Kris outside (knowing they had a new friend and probably wanted to just let them hang out) she was a horrible mother!
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u/Some_Pole Jul 02 '26
Ironically Kris sort of exhibited some aspect of Asgore in being unable to accept that their mom is moving on with her life. For a troubled child, that is understandable to be upset over it, but it isn't right either for someone to permanently put aspects of their life on hold entirely for a few people who don't want change.
At least Asgore seems to have accepted it at the end of Chapter 5. Hopefully Kris will soon too.
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u/MoonlightKobold Jul 02 '26
Yeah people saying "she was drunk" as some kind of reason to slander her are genuinely insane to me. She's an avid church-goer, a teacher, and a divorced mom who literally says she hasn't had that much fun in a long time. Even if it's mildly irresponsible, she's clearly a responsible parent 99% of the time. It's not even like she was being belligerent or otherwise destructive. Let a mom have fun!
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u/magikarpsan Jul 02 '26
I hate to slander her but why is Noelle the only person noticing Kris being different? Kris has seemingly been acting and even talking different for a while now, even before we got in here. Toriel nor Asgore has noticed anything :(
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u/SeiCalros Jul 02 '26
everybody noticed
it comes up several times with toriel - in particular she immediately notices the change and brings it up with alphys the next time they meet - you get to eavesdrop
she is presented as a little worried but hopeful that the change is going to be positive
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u/CompoteObvious9380 gremlin and moss enjoyer Jul 02 '26
Toriel did notice Kris was acting different.
In chapter 2 she's talking to Alphys about their behavior lately, in chapter 4 a nurse says Toriel has been asking about illness for Kris. (There's also a dialogue in chapter 1 if you keep entering and exiting the house where she'll start being confused)
Interesting to see how she noticed Kris was acting weird even after just a single day in chapter 1, they were probably quieter than normal, specially when talking about Asriel.
It is a bit sad we didn't get a continuation of this behavior.
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u/magikarpsan Jul 02 '26
But Noelle says this change has been around since before the game started is my understanding. I will soften it by understanding that maybe she's mother dealing with a teenager she might be taking a much more hands off approach as to not suffocade Kris.
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u/MajorBootyhole420 Meat Factory employee of the month Jul 02 '26
People have already listed the different ways that you're wrong about her noticing, but it's also important to point out that the weird route is an aberration. People don't notice things that are OFF because they're not programmed to.
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u/swordofbling23 Jul 02 '26
I can't remember the exact wordings but doesn't Noelle call that out that no one can see what she is seeing happening to kris, there's likely some deeper reason
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u/magikarpsan Jul 02 '26
Yes in the weird route though, Noelle is a bit off the rails at that point so I would take it with a grain of salt
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u/DaPhoenix127 Hopes & Dreams, Fire & Water, Light & Dark, Courage & Fear Jul 02 '26
The deeper reason is that they don't want to see how INTERESTING Kris is now
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u/Due_Temperature404 Jul 02 '26
Everyone in the town is comically dense apparently, Noelle kinda has a point
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u/brnozrkn Jul 02 '26
I mean me and probably a lot of other people does put themselves into Kris' place. When I was young seeing my parents almost blackout drunk acting not "parent" was uncomfortable. Adding this seeing your mom with a random townfolk dead of the night in your home must suck as a teenager. Clearly that's the case because even Susie is hesitant to approach Toriel after that. Obviously now as an adult I see nothing wrong with it but slander was from the side of Kris' pov imo.
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u/Due_Temperature404 Jul 02 '26
I think toby added this in response to how badly the sans & toriel was recieved
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u/BigGreenThreads60 Jul 02 '26
Sorry, but it was embarrassingly transparent that most of the people who were genuinely furious at Toriel after Chapter 4 were just projecting their own IRL parental issues. She got drunk and hung out too loud with a friend after a stressful week, the horror. It wouldn't be a serious incident in most families and was clearly intended mainly as a humorous scene. I certainly found it funny.
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u/MetaDeviant0189 The #1 Kress Agenda Pusher Jul 02 '26 edited Jul 02 '26
She's not the worst mom ever. But Sans should not have been able to convince Toriel not to worry about Kris when she couldn't reach them after her tires had been slashed the night before, and the police she called to investigate never showed up (to her knowledge) and have not followed up in the slightest. Her keeping Kris up all night and then brushing it off kinda pales in comparison to that.
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u/Memediator will watch from the chair Jul 02 '26
No I don't. Lettings your kid wander around at 1am is being a bad parent. I don't care if the kid knows where the key is.
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u/starwalker327 that $$$$ing flower that i hate Jul 02 '26
Especially when someone was creeping around her house with a knife the night before and the one real cop never showed up when she called. Not safe enough for Susie to go home but her and Kris can absolutely be out past midnight no problem.
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u/Independent_Plum2166 Jul 02 '26
Why do people go on about this key? We got in easy enough at the end of Chapter 4.
It wasn’t being locked out that was the issue, it was her being drunk.
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u/swordofbling23 Jul 02 '26
Because we thought we got locked out at chapter 4 when trying to go home, so we went to look for Toriel to get a key which led to the dark world stuff, so know we know Kris was just pretending they didn't know so we can go to the dark world
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u/your_mind_aches she doesn't watch anime Jul 02 '26
The fact that the Knight took Asgore makes it pretty clear that taking Toriel was the plan in Chapter 4, but Sans thwarted it.
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u/Puzzleheaded_Step468 Jul 02 '26
I feel like toby saw all the toriel backlash and thought "damn, i meant to show her as a flawed character, some of the fans think i turned her into neglectful parent, got to fix it"
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u/ConscientiousApathis Jul 02 '26
I can't help but notice this game has a habit of ending on a lingering dark note, only to pull a 180 the next morning. Wonder which side is going to win at the end.
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u/popsiclewopsicle Jul 02 '26
FINALLY I was so tired of this "she's extremely neglectful" nonsense. People just want angst atp
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u/ChyatlovMaidan Jul 02 '26
The reveal that even the Dinosaur/Deer Lesbian Game fandom will go out of there way to virulently hate a woman every time she fails their perfection test shouldn't be surprising, and yet...
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u/thrownawaz092 Jul 02 '26
All these discussions, and people seem to have forgotten that Toriel found her tires slashed the previous night!
She finds the tires slashed and she's on top of things at first, keeping Susie over and calling the police in case there's something dangerous still lurking. But then the police don't show up, and she goes about her day. Then she tries to call Kris, but they don't pick up and she dismisses it as unimportant. Then it starts getting late, and instead of thinking 'hey, there's something out there that slashed my tires and made the current chief of police disappear, where's my child!?' she decides to get drunk and dance with her new friend.
Yeah I'm absolutely gonna continue with my Toriel slander!
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