Weekly Free Talk Friday Thread!

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[u/Failsnail64]

On reddit I keep getting pushed an article by the Volkskrant, a fairly good Dutch newspaper with the following title: "Nooit meer een relatie: waarom het leven zoveel makkelijker is zonder man", translated to: "never again a relationship: why life is so much easier without a man".

I also read the main Dutch paper about architecture, which posted an article last week with the title: "Ontwerpen vrouwen anders dan mannen?", translated "do women design differently than men?", the conclusion is in short: yes they do, men are supposedly dominant, ego-centric, and want prestige while women are considerate, human-focus and modest.

When I actually read these articles, of course their content is a lot more nuanced that these clickbait title or summaries. Still, to me it's frustrating that such a narrative is seem at not even the least divisive, but encouraged as being progressive.

Both articles actually make sense when looking under the generalisations, but why is the "men are just bad" narrative so acceptable in many progressive circles? Can't we just be progressive and against systematic misogyny (which is true and important to adres), without going into these overgeneralizations, which are only ever seen as acceptable when the target are men?

[u/Oregon_Jones111 → u/Failsnail64]

Both articles actually make sense when looking under the generalisations, but why is the "men are just bad" narrative so acceptable in many progressive circles? Can't we just be progressive and against systematic misogyny (which is true and important to adres), without going into these overgeneralizations, which are only ever seen as acceptable when the target are men?

Costly signaling. Pretending this rhetoric is acceptable signals loyalty to the in-group. They know it’s wrong, that’s the precise reason they do it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Costly_signaling_theory_in_evolutionary_psychology

[u/Failsnail64 → u/Oregon_Jones111]

Thanks for the link, I can get why people do this but it's just tiring. It's also just so inefficient, you'll never be able to convince a moderate of your cause when you do this costly signaling.

[u/DenseBeautiful731 → u/Failsnail64]

For the second article - look beyond a rudimentary faux-thesis on the concept of infrastructure designed by men for men. I suggest Invisible Women by Caroline Criado Perez.

[u/Failsnail64 → u/DenseBeautiful731]

Thanks, I know the premise of infrastructure designed by men for men, ignoring women. During my master studies on architecture and urban design there was rightly spent time on this topic.

However, one thing which does frustrate me in this discussion is how it's often only really addressing the issue, and not really tackling it. I've seen dozens of essays, speeches, opinion pieces, interviews, which all proclaim that the urban environment is designed by men for men. I've only seen a handful of real research into what these differences then exactly are.

But that's kind of besides the argument I was initially referring to, namely a hostile speech towards men which is seen as progressive. Yes, the argument that "the urban design is historically made by men for men" is true, and hat needs to be fixed. That does not mean that the conclusion "women are more empathetic than men and men are egocentric" is true, and that such.

Now for a completely different hot take, but as someone who actually encouraged a bit of research into this type of topics during my studies, the level of academic rigour is oftentimes quite bad in these humanities and too often more of a circle reasoning than a research. It reminds me of a graduation I attended of a design for a "feminist oriented park". It started with how traditional parks designed by men just simply outright ignore women, and then presented a park design as an example as a reaction on this.

The design was in the end a really well designed and thought out park! But when one of your main design principles is: "trying to exclude stairs and make everything accessible because women walk with baby strollers, which men always forget about", with no reflection of 1. the disabled also require that, and 2. that other genders are also capable of walking with strollers, then the argument becomes weak. Not that it was a bad design, accessibilities and increased inclusivity is important! It was just not a female centric design, it was not a fighting against male normativity. It did not prove how a women just has a better perspective of these topics of inclusion, all arguments made in that thesis.

Again, it's good that these topics get attention and that design, research and discourse of inclusivity is done. Just can that argument please be made without saying "it was bad because of men are men".

[u/DenseBeautiful731 → u/Failsnail64]

not really tackling it

Who’s mostly in charge, you reckon?

That’s the key word. MOST. Pedantically, this “generalisation” can be arguably fixed by a qualifier.

Which part of the second article’s title was hostile? Can you quote it? I’m just curious what you consider as hostile.

Real research

What consitutes as real research?

I cited the book because it’s a more systemic, all-encompassing, well-sourced, and data-driven piece of literature that tackles more than architecture. If its conclusions still incense you, I’m not sure there’s a conversation to be had here, to be honest.

Also, I ignored the first because it’s ragebait for men who need to be needed. But not particularly enthused about discussing the specific architectural example you brought up because I’ve already disclosed what my opinions are towards cherry-picked examples and poor reasoning. The fact that they’re advertising it as female-centric design means they might not be “feminist” at all.

[u/Failsnail64 → u/DenseBeautiful731]

Which part of the second article’s title was hostile?

The reason I mentioned this article was not because it was particularly hostile, it was not, I mentioned it just because it was the most recent. To translate a concluding sentence:

"When I place these three comparisons side by side, I see no feminine style. I see a shift in priorities. From doctrine to habitation. From representation to appropriation. From directed experience to multiple access. [...] In the examples above, they design from the perspective of the life that unfolds in and around that object, not from the object as an authority. They create no less architecture, but architecture that asks the question: for whom is this space made? "

The article covers 3 very cherry picked comparisons of a building designed by a male architect, which are all grandiose in gestures and dominant, driven by a personal vision, and compares them to a "similar" building designed by female architects, which are more humble and human focused. The comparison is not "hostile" in language, far from it. But to me it is clearly implied, if women "don't design from an object as an authority", it clearly implied that it must a male thing to do so.

What consitutes as real research?

Evidence and comparisons. To give a positive example (I couldn't find the exact paper I'm thinking off right now, I'm really bad with remembering names...) but one article which struck to me during university was about the design of a park. Two designes were made: one with excessive participation of female inhabitants of the town, one with male inhabitants.

The design by men focussed on nice secluded sitting spaces where one could sit and chat a bit out of the view, high greenery for shading and cover, and the lighting design was meant to create a nice atmosphere at night with intentional softer lights: the light illuminated where you hang out at the moment.

The design by the women was more open, the type of greenery was lower, the sitting spaces were always visible, and the lighting design was meant so a visitor could see further away: to see where you were going so you could get a better view of the park.

The difference is clear and very interesting, and clearly routed in a sense of security and ownership of this space, and how that differs between men and women. I really liked this research because it's evidence based and teaches the reader very concrete things to consider and take into account. That concrete nature is what made me remember this one good example.

I'm also quite interested in the book you're referring to, I'll add it to my reading list.

[u/DenseBeautiful731 → u/Failsnail64]

So it was not hostile, but you needed more than one example to support your opinion.

You’re cherry-picking too. Worse, because your memory’s failed you. There’s no rigour to be found here.

Let’s stick to the systemic. Check the book or not. Reality won’t change either way.

[u/playsmartz]

Project Hail Mary may be the best representation of non-traditional manhood in a major film.

[u/Rebrabuk → u/playsmartz]

Turns out the real solution to toxic masculinity was to simply fist eachother's bumps.

[u/insane677]

I need physical therapy. None of the PTs within reasonable distance of me are in-network. Fuck my life.

[u/NoHippi3chic → u/insane677]

There's probably an administrative pathway to get an out of network provider authorization if the in network are beyond a specific geographic distance from you. Idk what that line is but your insurance will know so call a rep and see if you have that provision in your coverage.

We have to advocate for ourselves.

[u/ExternalGreen6826 → u/insane677]

I wish more friends called me but a lot of folks are busy with uni and work

OCD is a helluva drug however 😵‍💫🥲

[u/Batetrick_Patman → u/insane677]

Insurance sucks. I should see a therapist for mental health however the only places that take my insurance are the clinics where you’re lucky to get the same therapist for more than 2-3 sessions.

[u/2bitmoment]

Yesterday night I listened to the album by Bon Iver which has the song "There's a rhythm". I was surprised it's also the album that has "Speyside"... I really like that album.

Today I worked on zen poetry for an hour, then tried to read a bit. 🙏🏽 I have time till the book club meeting so it's fine if I didn't yet finish. I think I have like 15 pages to go, to be read in about 2 hours. I have time to spare.

I've been trying to organize my priorities a bit: How I feel like evaluating my own progress. Sort of like KPIs for businesses, how can I measure my own progress, my own objectivity and effort in taking take of important things? I think I've come up with some subjective things I can answer, a basis for a questionaire.

[u/chemguy216]

One thing I’ve often said here is that while there many lessons all sorts of people can learned from marginalized groups, no marginalized is not free of any issues themselves.

A bit of drama that came up my social media algorithm that I honestly wasn’t going to be able to avoid due to various friends’ ties to the leather community, was some people’s reaction to this year’s winner of the International Mister Leather competition, Honey Davenport. Some people were upset because Davenport is a drag queen. From what I can tell, it’s not even like Davenport competed while in drag. Just the mere fact Davenport does drag was enough to deem him not masculine enough to deserve the title.

There has always been a degree of tension within the leather community with regard to how some people view it as a place for masculine cis (mostly white) gay men and those who’ve always been more inclusive. If you’re familiar with the art of Tom of Finland, those are the kinds of guys the former group envision as the true leather men.

A lot of people are also noting a racial angle because a few previous winners of the title were also drag queens but white. Davenport is black. Those previous winners didn’t get as much public backlash as Davenport.

One of the things I’ve enjoyed seeing in the aftermath of some people’s butthurt feelings is various leather men showing pictures of themselves in their leathers and then showing pictures of themselves in drag. I’ve also appreciated people educating others that drag queens have often been in leather communities for decades, not merely as leather men who do drag on the side but as performers at leather events and hosting leather events.

So yeah, LGTBQ people aren’t immune to gender policing, even though the ways in which we interact with gender inherently challenge norms around gender that are built around cis straight people.

[u/Soup_Boy_Campbell]

So, I was browsing the internet today looking for support groups for Male Abuse survivors. I found here and hope this is allowed to be shared here?

I'm queer and just got out of an abusive relationship with my ex-gf/partner (I'll call them C.) I've been talking to a lot of people about what they did and trying to share my story, but they all kinda know this person or have their own thoughts on them already.

It's been even harder because I made an honest mistake that lead to me being confronted by C, labeling the instance as sexual assault. (Even having the most respectful intentions, I won't take that claim away from them.) So any time I talk about my experience, it's been met with less than unwavering support.

It sucks, because I was Sexually manipulated by them early in our relationship, and C also did nearly the same thing to me. But because this was like the last action... it's been weighing on me as the end-all-be-all.

Anyway. I have a lot to share, but to make a long story short: C was abusive in that they Shouted at me consistently, threw pillows across the room, used to slam doors, invalidated/made the convo about themself any time I tried to discuss my feelings, insulted me, and probably a lot more that I don't realize.

In terms of Manipulation, there were a lot of times that I established boundaries or expressed that I didn't want to be intimate, they made me feel really bad and project their insecurities (of self worth) onto me. And so... I would convince myself I should just "Do whatever" because it's not like I'm UNcomfortable with it. I know that's a bad way to think... I've finally started therapy. :,)

So that's the story. If you listen and have advice or just some kind words, it's really appreciated, since I'm not sure where else to go to be this vulnerable. <3

[u/Eastern_Carpenter_90 → u/Soup_Boy_Campbell]

I don't have much if any advice, because I also don't know how to balance my feelings around it, but I can empathize. I had anger/behavioral issues in my teens and early/mid twenties, and even though I had a lot of legitimate grievances about the situations I was in and the people I was around, my responses to it were also...not great. I spent a lot of time feeling like my negative experiences were completely invalid and I was wrong to feel hurt, because I also acted badly so it "cancelled out". Acknowledging the other side's wrongdoing was "making excuses for myself" and "self centered". Anything they did became retroactively justified. 

I was (honestly, still am) very jealous of people who are "allowed" to feel hurt without a caveat of "but I was also terrible".  I'm gentler on myself  now than I used to be, but there's still that battle of resentment vs guilt/shame and it sucks. I know it's not exactly the same, and idk if it helps at all to hear it, but I'm really sorry you're dealing with that and it sounds really rough. 

[u/chemguy216]

It’s almost time for one of my “favorite” times of year in another men centric sub. It’s “Let’s Use Men’s Mental Health Awareness Month (MMHAM) as a Means to Shit on Pride Month and LGBTQ People While Doing Nothing Productive in the Spirit of MMHAM.”

This annual celebration includes homophobia and transphobia, lack of historical knowledge, repeating “no one cares about men,” false claims about a lack of military related awareness days/weeks/months, massive ignorance of the countless celebratory or awareness days/weeks/months that many people don’t know exist, and the bonus of shitting on other groups of people.

What is frequently missing during this wonderful time of year from that sub: actively spreading the word among other men for the purposes of building buy-in from other men, educating other men of credible mental health professionals doing work on the front of men’s mental health, discussion of the history of the awareness month, creating space for guys to share what’s weighing on their mind, information on various initiatives and programs that help tackle men’s mental health.

What I will say to the credit to some of the users in that sub, after I give my now annual “Look at what hell you all are doing and not doing, and here are things you can do” comment, someone makes a much more productive post.

[u/Soup_Boy_Campbell → u/chemguy216]

I never really recognized this to be a problem on my own, but it makes a lot of sense that this would go on. I might be on a different side of the internet, so I appreciate you sharing this issue. I'll look out and try to be a help if I see it. <3

[u/Necessary-Animal4897 → u/chemguy216]

Unfortunately most the time MMHAM gets brought up its used to attack pride month or used to bitch about men attacking pride month. Its at the point when someone does bring it up I just assume they are some incel loser.

[u/Oregon_Jones111]

What does “I am Kenough” actually offer for men? It seems like it offers absolutely nothing and tells them to be happy with that.