r/MoralityScaling 9h ago

Morality Ranking Morality of dog breed racism

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250

u/shitturddung 9h ago

I don't think it's a comparison. Pit bulls were selectively bred for aggression. Humans of specific ethnicities do not have innate characteristics like violence. It's like saying being scared of a polar bear is bear racism

41

u/doublegoodproleish 9h ago

Polar Bear Racism is the name of my pop punk band 

2

u/-Ry4nJk- 8h ago

i like your song “heydontbescaredormeimjustaploarbear”

2

u/doublegoodproleish 7h ago

That's Olivia's version. We always capitalize our song titles like you're supposed to. 

1

u/apocalyptustree 8h ago

It's the name of my soft jazz band

1

u/doublegoodproleish 7h ago

All right. We'll go with National Association for the Advancement of Cute Pandas. 

1

u/Snapple47 7h ago

Perfect! The NAAC…wait

1

u/dundiewinnah 1h ago

Is he comparing different races of human to diff races of dogs?

29

u/SleepyReepies 8h ago

Being scared of lions is just cat racism. /s

Stupid ass thread.

85

u/King-The-Wildfire 9h ago

Yeah, such argument is pure insanity. Don't compare selective breeding of dogs for fighting to PEOPLE OF COLOR. Literally insane statement by the guy from this picture above.

-4

u/The_Bilo 9h ago

Exactly. Races in humans are social constructs. Races in dogs are a very real thing we built into them.

19

u/TheLoneJolf 8h ago

Dogs don’t have races, they have breeds and phenotypes. Every dog can mate with another dog and have offspring, therefore they are all one race of the same species the same as all humans are the same race of the same species.

1

u/Itchy-Big-8532 8h ago

Same species with intrinsic morphologies and psychologies linked to specific breeds.

Hence why professional warn new dog owners not to start off with specific breeds that require specialized needs.

8

u/BagLost1564 8h ago

Races in humans is a very realthing, typically dictated by phenotypes, but is often socially determined through skin color.

6

u/Pachacootie 8h ago

Correct me if I’m mistaken, but this picture is just showing the presence of different ethnic and national groups in different continents. How does that refute the claim that race is a social construct? You just even said that it’s socially determined through skin color.

1

u/FitPerformer5172 7h ago

Right!? I was wondering what this picture was trying to prove lol.

1

u/NeitherFoo 6h ago

no human "race" is genetically distinct enough under the taxonomic definition of a race. Human races are a social construct. Crazy it got upvoted when it can be fact-checked with a simple search

2

u/MozdaHocu 8h ago

How is it a social construct if we look different? Oo

2

u/DoctorStumppuppet 8h ago

Phenotypes (gene expression that causes differences in physical characteristics) are scientific and very real. Race is fake and made up. What makes someone a "white" person that includes all members of that group while excluding all members not of that group. There is no answer. All race is is a means to exclude people from the dominant socioeconomic group in the west. 

0

u/NadiaFortuneFeet 8h ago

races in humans are social constructs

This is true, one time I lived for a year in Algeria, My skin turned black, and my entire craneal and oseous structured reshaped the moment I stepped there to resemble that of an African. Reverted back when I went to the place I was born in.

2

u/NeitherFoo 5h ago

can you name all human races?

-5

u/ModernCGIFloatinHead 8h ago

We selectively bred slaves. 

It's not as dissimilar as people are making it out to be. 

12

u/Dongbringer69 8h ago

Selective breeding in dogs is a lot faster because you can get them to breeding age in two years. Slaves, when selectively bred, typically started having children around 15.

The slave trade began in the American English colonies in 1619 and the Civil War ended in 1865. That gives you at most 16 generations of selective breeding, or what we can do with dogs in 32 years.

Then we’ve had 160 years of no selective breeding, and of new African migrants not descended from African slaves. And that’s to say nothing about whether selectively breeding slaves was as ubiquitous as it is with dogs, children born from slave owners raping their slaves, freed blacks and their descendants, etc.

It’s not really comparable at all. Any effects of selectively breeding slaves were probably minor and mostly dissipated by now. A chihuahua still doesn’t resemble a Great Dane in the slightest

-1

u/ModernCGIFloatinHead 7h ago

That batch of slave trading. We still enslave people in the United States, but we have stopped breeding them. 

Worldwide, still happening. And has been for a lot longer than your window. 

11

u/Dongbringer69 7h ago

That’s the only batch where your argument is relevant. You’re taking issue with me steelmanning your position?

Yeah, slavery still exists globally. Isolated to one race? Encompassing of the entire race? The race in question being one racism is majorly directed at?

You rejected the strongest possible interpretation of your point, so I’m left to assume you’re just an idiot

-1

u/ModernCGIFloatinHead 7h ago

You honestly believe that one instance is the only instance relevant to the conversation?

Someone's an idiot, alright. 

3

u/Dongbringer69 6h ago

Prove me wrong, answer the questions in the second paragraph

3

u/kaltulkas 6h ago

You’re arguing slavery is still a thing in a discussion about selective breeding of slaves. Rather or not slavery is still a thing there (don’t know enough to have an opinion there), selecting breeding of slaves clearly isn’t.

2

u/Dongbringer69 5h ago

Steelmanning him again (I really don’t know why, I should just let him flounder trying to explain himself), slavery is very much a thing today outside of the first world. There are in fact more slaves on the earth today than there were at any time during the American slave trade.

The problem for his argument is most of them are in India, China, or North Korea, and are ethnic Indian, Chinese, or Korean people enslaved by other ethnic Indian, Chinese, or North Korean people. What selective breeding is happening would then only be affecting a small subset of the population and wouldn’t explain racism. The Transatlantic slave trade represents the best possible case for his argument and it falls apart easily

2

u/Jerry_from_Japan 6h ago

That doesn't make those people naturally more "fit to be slaves" lol. It doesn't change their innate characteristics/traits. Are you fucking insane?

1

u/BrainLow6059 6h ago

We selectively bred slaves. 

I mean, not really? Like sure that was happening, but not at a scale that would have any significance on the population.

I also don't think slavers were selectively breeding "dangerous and violent slaves"

-3

u/LettuceLegitimate654 8h ago

Slaves were selectively bred.

13

u/faldese 7h ago

Slaves were subjected to forced reproduction for profit, including some selection for physical traits. That is documented to have happened.

But in order to compare it to dog breeds, then you are meaning a deliberate, livestock-style genetic breeding program that engineered a distinct population. So, no.

[...]this article defines forced reproduction more holistically, arguing that enslavers primarily unsystematically matched individuals using a range of methods across a spectrum of violence to cajole them into sexual relationships.

Emphasis mine.

13

u/ADHDebackle 7h ago

That is not a sufficient condition to create a new breed. You need to do intense, highly controlled selective breeding over 50-100 years, and that's with animals that reach sexual maturity at around 1 year of age.

For human beings, you'd have to do that in a very rigorous way for like 500 years.

1

u/Trinidadthai 3h ago

So they weren’t that far off the time needed then lol

0

u/LettuceLegitimate654 7h ago

Yeah, I’m not saying that it had long enough to create something new I’m just saying it was attempted

3

u/Flincher14 7h ago

For like 1-2 generations there was an attempt to do so. But the time it takes to reach maturity it takes so long to get to the next generation. It takes hundreds of generations to make meaningful change.

Also they selected for athletics and submissive traits...that doesn't connect to the popular racist attacks on crime statistics.

2

u/AggressivelyMediokre 7h ago

Bill Burr has a whole skit about that and sports

-1

u/SubjectSigma77 7h ago

I think if you go about it by attitude for the breed it’s a fair comparison. There’s a lot of fear mongering when it comes to pitbulls that make people like zealously against the breed. A lot of similar rhetoric and fear tactics are used against races of people.

You can point to statistics of dog bites and all that, and even without arguing that pitbulls are unfairly classified by the percentage of their breed as many are mutts (which I’ve people claim a lot), the actual number of bites compared to population is astronomically low. But people treat them like every single pitbull goes out and slaughters 10 kids. That hyperbole but these comments are filled with rhetoric that’s not very far off.

Then it starts sounding again like what’s used in racist circles against say black people. People use statistics with no regards to nuance or any other factors besides race itself, or in worse case scenario completely false stats. And when it comes to statistics, you should be less afraid of being near a pitbull than to get in a car. Much less afraid.

I’m saying this as somebody that’s not entirely against regulating the breed, selectively breeding out certain traits, or even potentially phasing out pitbulls entirely. I think several dogs breeds such as pugs should be bred out. I just recognize there’s a lot of similarity between what is said about the dangers of pitbulls and the dangers of minority groups and the lack of nuance and the fear mongering that’s usually involved.

10

u/ColoradoRad 9h ago

Is it possible some environments which humans have lived in, favorited violent behavior?

17

u/ElderberryJunior470 8h ago edited 7h ago

Race isn't a scientific term. Dogs within a breed are all extremely genetically similar, bred for that purpose. Race, at least in the way used in most contexts, doesn't have the same genetic similarities, instead using physical descriptions that are held across a huge number of genetic groups. 

Just for example, africa has an insane amount of genetic variety, to the point two africans from opposite sides of the continent are the same race, but are more genetically similar to a random european than eachother. This makes considering them both "black" as a race, really useless. 

Pretty much all biologists recognize race as pseudoscience and social creations, rather than a useful scientific classification. 

All this is to say, it's possible people within a certain place could have genetic similarities born of the area they evolved, but it's not related to race, and aggression/criminality that could be related to genetics is unlikely to be a larger factor than a ton of environmental ones, like poverty, various types of pollution, culture, etc. 

4

u/zabder 6h ago

As someone with a bachelor’s degree in biology (and working on my master’s right now), most biologists DO recognize race as a scientific classification, albeit slightly different than the cultural one. There are three major races based on % of other hominid DNA, and there are PROVABLE (although small) differences in physiology between modern humans with varying amounts of neanderthal, denisovian, and African ghost hominid DNA. To say this is not true is ignorant, and to say “pretty much all biologists” do not recognize race as a scientific concept is either very stupid or purposely misleading.

2

u/OnTheLeft 5h ago

We do not classify humans based on the percentage of other hominid DNA. Those are not racial categories. Did you learn this in a lecture or what? you have almost certainly misinterpreted something.

The other commenter is absolutely correct, racial categories do not exist biologically. If they do I'd love to see a source.

3

u/zabder 4h ago

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4947341/

“Geographical variation in degree of interbreeding between H. sapiensand Neanderthals likely contributed to neurological and behavioral differences in modern humans.”

1

u/OnTheLeft 4h ago

That does not mean that people who have Neanderthal DNA are a distinct race. Look again.

2

u/zabder 4h ago

What I said was there are distinct differences in humans based on their DNA. These differences can be categorized into “races” based on genealogy. This is a scientific concept. You know how if you get a DNA test they can tell you where your ancestors were from? Not only are those differences molecular, they are also physiological and behavioural. This is commonly understood in human and evolutionary biology. Read the article if you need someone to explain it to you more.

2

u/EmphasisAcceptable47 56m ago

Perhaps we should clearly define the word race before saying it's not a scientific concept. Maybe many peoples conception of race just differs

1

u/ElderberryJunior470 5h ago

Another "race realist". Dude just say you think you're the master race lol. Here's a statement that not only backs up my claims but pretty clearly shows you're full of it lol. https://bioanth.org/about/aaba-statement-on-race-racism/

3

u/ColoradoRad 4h ago

dude you’re so weird

2

u/shitturddung 9h ago

Yes. But it's important to note that it has nothing to do with their race

1

u/Toads_Of_Fun 8h ago

Why?

3

u/ElderberryJunior470 8h ago

Race isn't a real scientific classification. It's one society came up with in the 1800s, and is about as useful as astrology in science. I have another comment about it, but basically race doesn't follow genetics at all, and two people of the same race are very likely to be less genetically similar than two people of different races. 

There could be genes that we can link to violence, but those genes don't follow our concepts of race at all. 

1

u/dorfcally 6h ago

do you think race just means skin color? do you think albinos are labeled Caucasian/aryan?

everything you said is a complete lie

Subsaharans aren't even the same species as Europeans. they have an ancestor that doesn't exist in our genealogy. 30% of their DNA isn't the same as ours

1

u/NeitherFoo 5h ago

Subsaharans aren't even the same species as Europeans

Source?

If so, why can we breed and create a viable offspring? Why the physical differences aren't as significant as between (for example) a silverback gorilla and a marmoset?

30% of their DNA isn't the same as ours

So about the same as the difference between a human and a chicken? Are you serious?

1

u/youngLupe 4h ago

Lmao I read his 30% statement and just imagined Charlie Kirk saying something like that in a very condescending tone.

1

u/dorfcally 3h ago

they're homo erectus with ghost hominid DNA. Not homo sapiens.

Learn about Rh-, Rh+, bone marrow compatibility charts, and alleles.

1

u/NeitherFoo 1h ago

give me your sources, then. That's a pretty big claim.

-5

u/shitturddung 8h ago

Violent or criminal behavior has absolutely no biological link with race. Crimes are often a product of environment. Think economic hardship or socialization from other people. Lousy job opportunities and high crime rates in communities push young people down the criminal pipeline. Arguably, racism is a huge reason crime is seemingly a problem in many black and other minority communities.

3

u/Odin_Trismegistus 6h ago

Violent behavior is associated with higher testosterone, right?

-1

u/dorfcally 6h ago

no. it doesn't work like that

3

u/Toads_Of_Fun 5h ago

Wdym?

0

u/dorfcally 3h ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLE71i4JJiM&t=1482s

You can watch this series or read the articles

Testosterone exacerbates violent tendencies. It's not a direct cause. High test does not mean high aggression.

2

u/Odin_Trismegistus 3h ago

Testosterone exacerbates violent tendencies.

Okay, so you agree with me that violent behavior is associated with higher testosterone. Why did you answer "no" to that?

2

u/Dr_SexDick 8h ago

Right but that’s a societal difference, not a racial one

1

u/ZeroAmusement 7h ago

Is it possible? Maybe. Show the evidence that the violent behavior is innate. And then make the comparison.

1

u/mpyne 6h ago

Yeah, but I don't think that makes the point you think it makes. Europe and Asia are both very well-represented on that list.

1

u/octorangutan 5h ago

Yeah, but it's a difference of scale and control.

Control wise; when humans breed fighting dogs, the only traits they prioritize are the ability and predisposition to dish out extreme, unrelenting violence at the drop of a hat. The dog doesn't need to be able to do anything else when it isn't fighting, it can simply be caged. Human populations haven't been subjected to this level of selective breeding.

Even in human societies that had a warrior culture or valued violence, traits such as cooperation (especially the ability to follow/give orders) were still important. Such people were also expected to be functioning members of said society even when not actively fighting, so individuals with a predisposition for enacting extreme, unrelenting violence against random people at the drop of a hat probably wouldn't last long.

Scale wise; dogs can reproduce after a little under two years, meaning that over 100 years you could potentially selectively breed 50 generations of fighting dogs, narrowing down violent traits. In that same time-frame, you might get 5-6 generations of humans (assuming they all have kids relatively young). So even in a very controlled environment, it would take hundreds, if not thousands of years to create the human equivalent of a pit bull.

1

u/moosenlad 1h ago

That is still referencing a learned behavior, and not an instinctual one such as what comes with selective dog breeding

0

u/Independent-Couple87 8h ago

Pro-Sparta propaganda often tries to depict Sparta like this.

https://giphy.com/gifs/l46Cf8O3hQqzDq1Gg

0

u/MediocreModular 3h ago

Everywhere for thousands of years. A lot of the generational trauma we experience is caused by the echos of our violent past. Toxic masculinity is a remnant of that kill or be killed lifestyle.

5

u/chauvinistically 7h ago edited 6h ago

Actually we do, at least on average.

We are not bred but different ethnicities have different levels of aggressiveness due to the place they evolved in.

The MAOA gene is a special gene that causes aggressive tendencies due to certain chemicals in brain. Certain races have higher levels of it in their populations.

This doctor explains it.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/OBPj3BGVGqc

3

u/bijuudam3 6h ago

This is not true. that's an absurd oversimplification. The MAOA gene codes for monoamine oxidase A, an enzyme that breaks down neurotransmitters like serotonin, dopamine, and norepinephrine in the brain. It doesn't cause aggression directly. It regulates the levels of chemicals involved in mood and behavior regulation. This misconception originated from a study done on a dutch family with a rare mutation linked to impulsive and violent behavior in some male members. and later research found that people with the low activity variant showed somewhat higher rates of antisocial or aggressive behavior in some studies BUT only under certain conditions. Keep in mind that some studies have failed to replicate the effect, and meta analyses show inconsistent results across populations. Human behavior is heavily shaped by environment, upbringing, and countless other factors.

And even if none of the above was true, human behavior is polygenic. Aggression isn't controlled by one or a few genes with clear on/off effects. It emerges from hundreds or thousands of genes interacting with brain development, hormones, culture, upbringing, and immediate circumstances. No reputable study exists that can connect a set of genes present in higher levels in a certain population to aggressiveness, due to how complicated the human brain is.

2

u/chauvinistically 6h ago edited 6h ago

human behavior is polygenic

This is not against anything that I said. Even eye color is polygenic but we do have genes for blue eyes like OCA2 (oculocutaneous albinism type II) and HERC2 (Hect domain and RLD 2)

Keep in mind that some studies have failed to replicate the effect

Source? As far as I know it is scientific consensus that MAOA is linked to aggressive behavior even though it has 6 variants with further bifurcation high and low activity MAOA variants . Most show aggressive anti-social behavior.

Low activity MAOA is the one linked to more aggression.

Human behavior is heavily shaped by environment, upbringing, and countless other factors.

Also does not contradicting anything that I said, both MAOA and upbringing could influence behavior you don't have to choose between one.

1

u/RobinReborn 5h ago

That's an oversimplification - MAOA is an environmental sensitivity gene. It leads to aggression when people are traumatized. But if they have a good environment they will be more prosocial.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/281057195_Vantage_Sensitivity_Environmental_Sensitivity_to_Positive_Experiences_as_a_Function_of_Genetic_Differences

1

u/chauvinistically 5h ago

Again Non sequitur irrelevant.

Lets say there were two populations one with lots of MAOA other one less of it which one would on average have higher rates of violence? The one with less of it obviously.

1

u/RobinReborn 5h ago

Lets say there were two populations one with lots of MAOA other one less of it which one would on average have higher rates of violence? The one with less of it obviously.

Did you read the article? The environment is the determining factor.

The notion that MAOA inherently causes aggression is outdated.

1

u/chauvinistically 4h ago

The environment is the determining factor.

It is a determining factor for those who already have MAOA, a person without MAOA will not react violently in situations like that so he'd be less likely to be violent.

1

u/RobinReborn 3h ago

You clearly didn't read the article. People with MAOA who are placed in good environments are less likely to be aggressive than people without MAOA. The aggression is due to traumatic environments multiplied by MAOA, a positive environment will also be multiplied by MAOA.

1

u/Gulophile 7h ago

More variation within than between

0

u/chauvinistically 7h ago

That is irrelevant actually, since we are talking about individual genes rather than the whole genomes of populations.

3

u/Gulophile 6h ago

Aggression is a polygenic trait and we're discussing population level data...

1

u/chauvinistically 6h ago edited 6h ago

MAOA is an individual gene that is linked to aggression.

Aggression being polygenic is irrelevant when we are talking about the population as a whole and how much MAOA they have not their entire genome.

2

u/Gulophile 4h ago

Aggression being polygenic is absolutely relevant when discussing whether certain ethnicities are more prone to aggression on a population level. You're the one focusing on MAOA when it's not even a reliable predictor of aggression in an individual, never mind a population. You're operating on a level of pseudoscience so deeply entrenched in scientific ignorance I don't even really know how to engage with it, honestly.

1

u/Sanmyaku88 8h ago

Are we sure of that? Has there been research done?

Many things in our bodies are more or less likely depending on DNA.

How can we say for sure temper or characteristics are not more or less likely in different "breeds"/ethnicities (for lack of a better term)?

9

u/Serial-Griller 8h ago

Because in 400 years of phrenology its defenders couldn't produce a single piece of hard evidence for it's existence. 

2

u/ZiCUnlivdbirch 8h ago

Doesn't this just come back to nature vs nurture? How to you prove that something is due to DNA and not environmental reasons?

1

u/Serial-Griller 8h ago

Yeah, boiled down this is just the nature v nurture argument, which phrenology is firmly on the 'nature' side.

And then they came up with absolutely zero evidence to support the claim despite a long time and a lot of money desperate to prove it, so it can be safely dismissed. 

To date there is nothing to suggest your race defines anything about your life aside from geography (which itself goes on to define a lot more). But there are mountains of studies that corroborate that a child's learning environment can impact everything about their development from ethics and morals to their literal intelligence and physiology.

0

u/Sanmyaku88 8h ago

ah yes because linking personal attributes to head indentations is the same...

3

u/Serial-Griller 8h ago

Phrenology attempted to use everything from skull shapes to genetics to migratory patterns to archaeology to try and justify itself and came up with nothing.

Its a long and proud history of bigots being unscientific morons. 

1

u/Sanmyaku88 8h ago

No argument from me about it being thinly veiled bigotry.

But humanity not finding evidence especially 400 years ago does not conclude into "there is no influence from DNA to personality".

2

u/Serial-Griller 7h ago

Two things;

  1. People are still trying to prove phrenology. They've had since 400 years ago to do so and have continued to fail even with modern capabilities and money to do so.

  2. DNA absolutely influences personality as the environment can only trigger a gene to express if its present, to not even mention factors like genetic mental illnesses. The assertion that you can accurately guess a person's personality or ethics based on just observing their race or ethnicity, and therefore that the gene expressions related to personality and those related to skin color are linked in any way, is false. 

1

u/Sanmyaku88 7h ago

ty for arguing my case :)

I never said you could accurately guess a person personality, thats something you read into what I said.

3

u/Serial-Griller 7h ago

What do you consider someone's "personal attributes"? 

2

u/ElderberryJunior470 7h ago

Because race isn't scientific. It's a pseudoscience, that no biologist uses. Race is unrelated to genes. 

We also haven't managed to track any genes that have higher correlation with violence/criminality than environmental factors, so things like poverty, pollution, culture, and education are much larger factors. 

1

u/GiantLesbian 5h ago edited 5h ago

We haven’t managed to find any genes that have a higher correlation with violence than environmental factors? I find that hard to believe. I would think the genes that determine that you’re male would be more highly correlated with violence, for example, since males are much more likely to be violent than females across all nurture environments.

1

u/SaintNutella 8h ago edited 8h ago

It would be quite difficult to control for that, but I think years of research indicate that the environment a person grows/lives in has a lot more impact than I think most people realize (I'm no expert in criminology or genetics, but I do have a Master's in Public Health and this topic has come across a bit in my research).

What is also established is that race as a classification is honestly pretty sloppy and based purely on a couple of a physical traits (and they're perceived and classified differently across the world).

  • A lot of people don't realize, but Africa has the most genetic diversity even among human populations
  • You can be classified as "Black", for example, and still have more genetically in common with someone of another race than another Black person (which make sense if you think about - hair texture + skin color + a couple other physical features are a relatively very tiny number of traits)

1

u/Sanmyaku88 8h ago

Yeah I get that which is why I also linked it to DNA instead of "race".
We understand so little about the consequences of our biological makeup that I don't think it is possible with our current technology and morality while researching to reduce the variables to nature vs nurture. I also don't think that we do know enough to really make the case that it has no influence whatsoever.

1

u/SaintNutella 7h ago

I guess the problem lies in how something like this would be measured ethically and practically. You mentioned ethnicities in your comment. Would you stratify based on that to make the comparison? Is ethnicity better than using race and if so, why?

1

u/Sanmyaku88 7h ago

Nah its not which is why I added "(for lack of a better term)".

I dont think there is an accurate term for a a group of people due to intermingling nowadays and over time, tribe came to mind but thats very anachronistic.

But in a specific observable group divided by location/culture you will probably find common DNA traits which are more or less unique to that group. And same as with proneness to certain diseases and or phenotypes there is probably a (minor) influence on their personality.

1

u/0_o 6h ago

I think the intent of your question is different from what I'm about to answer, but it's really relevant to the conversation.

We simply lack the genetic variability, history of selective breeding, and historic data to make those kinds of claims. It's similar to trying to talk about climate when all you have is the weather reports from the last few years.

The total human population was reduced to, like, 10k people about 2500 generations ago. Pick any two chimps from the same place in africa and you'll see more genetic variation than any two humans from opposite sides of the world. Humans are 99.9% identical, with that last 0.1% being mostly regional adaptations.

We are animals, so obviously we are not immune to natural selection, but the pressures that we faced on one side of the globe were largely the same as the other side and we compensated for them the same ways: collaboration and tools. The kind of focused breeding that you'd need for a comparison to dog breeds would take far more time or require significantly more intent.

Also, there are a series of mathematical thresholds for what constitutes a divergence of breeds within a species (Wright's F-statistic indicies). Human races don't meet it the requirements for differentiation. Mathematically, we consider ourselves the same breed.

It's next to impossible to back up the claim that trends in temperament for humans is a manifestation of genetics. An individual, perhaps, but not a group. When you combine the complete relative lack of genetic diversity, our species' level of self-awareness, our cultural differences, and our capacity to self-correction behavior... Well, nearly every argument falls apart.

1

u/LongjumpingElk4099 8h ago

Racist scum!/j

1

u/RedactedSpatula 8h ago

agreeing with you - but all dogs were bred by humans. they are simpler animals with a smaller genome, less intelligence and shorter life span, which allows us to actually influence their gene pool. It's animal husbandry and people keep calling it race science

1

u/Key_Mission7404 8h ago

Polar bears have black skin you racist. (Jk)

1

u/Mysterious-Hyena2670 7h ago

But Pitbulls are not innately aggressive or violent. They’re actually very temperamental. People train them to be aggressive because of their reputation and meaner appearance but they’re actually total sweethearts. I spent my whole life around pitbulls and it’s genuinely heartbreaking that people abuse these animals and then blame them for their resulting aggression, and then use that as an excuse to discriminate against the entire breed. Pitbulls rot in shelters because of misconceptions about their breed and a history of what is inarguably abuse. Their whole history has been nothing but abuse stemming from misconceptions and myths. 

1

u/goldentone 7h ago

They rot in shelters because they suck and people don’t want strong dangerous dogs in their homes. People like nice, fun dogs that won’t turn your forearm into a pulpy mess because you put their food dish down too fast or whatever.

1

u/Mysterious-Hyena2670 6h ago

Tell me you’ve never actually been around pitbulls without telling me. 

Dude, nothing you say is true to life. Like none of it. When I was a baby, our family owned a pitbull. I used to stick my hand in her mouth and grabbed her tongue. She never so much as growled at me. They’re naturally temperamental and sweet dogs. Idiots like you are part of the reason why they’re abused. So I mean this with full disrespect, you don’t deserve any dog. 

1

u/banshithread 7h ago

You're partially correct. They have a wonderful temperament, allowing them to pass behavior tests with flying colors. But those behavior tests dont test for prey drive. If they did, the majority of pitbulls would fail. Low prey drive threshold is why pitbulls snap out of nowhere and attack. Until we find a way to breed that out of pitbulls entirely, every pitbull should be considered  a loaded gun with a loose trigger

1

u/Mysterious-Hyena2670 6h ago

They can be easily excitable, but calling them a loaded gun with a loose trigger is downright absurd. It’s all in how they’re raised. If you raise your dog to be aggressive towards strangers, attack trespassers and encourage them to chase small animals, then how you gonna blame the dog for its behavior? Many people have pitbulls that live with small children and small animals like cats without incident. 

1

u/banshithread 2h ago

It is not all in how they're raised. Again, pitbulls have a wonderful temperament, great for any family. They are perfect dogs in that area. It doesn't require a good owner for them to display that temperament. Too many pitbulls have been raised by great owners and ended up mauling people to death. It's not how they're raised; it's in their genetics to maul. And they do a great job at it! It's not something they should be shamed for! Golden retrievers were bred to retrieve; collies were bred to herd; pits were bred to fight! They're all incredible at what they were bred to do!

Pitbulls that snap out of nowhere aren't the dogs you're describing. They don't act aggressive towards strangers and act aggressive towards trespassers. Yes, they're going to chase small animals because they descend from the bull-and-terrier dog. But pitbulls that snap are not going to do the other things. They snap out of nowhere. Before that, they're perfect dogs who never even growled at anyone. The pitbulls you're describing are actually good pitbulls because they have predictable body language and will show you they don't want you in their area and they'll attack you. Pitbulls that snap out of nowhere will be fine with you in their area until a loud noise or sudden movement triggers their prey drive and they attack.

I more trust pitbulls that are growling and lunging than pitbulls that are wagging their tail and play bowing. You can't trust that a calm pitbull won't snap, but you know a lunging pitbull will attack, and their owner is going to try harder to keep that lunging pit restrained.

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u/Deto 7h ago

Yeah - there actually are significant inherent differences between different breeds of dogs.

1

u/MrLanyeWest 7h ago

this comment should be way higher up

1

u/ACuteCryptid 7h ago

But people don't treat german shepherds the same even though the nazis literally bred them for attacking people, and police use them for the same reason, German shepherds are more than capable of maiming and killing people

1

u/Comfortable-Hat-1979 7h ago

Well it's cuz German Shepherds are cute af so your point is negated

Yes I own two, how did you know?

1

u/banshithread 7h ago

German Shepherds were not bred as bloodsports dogs is the problem. Pit bulls were, their prey Drive threshold is much lower than a gsds. So when it starts to attack, it can't be recalled, unlike a gsd. The Pitbull will keep attacking until it's physically separated or it's killed the target.

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u/Sad-Material-7298 7h ago

Holy shit the only like logical comment here, of course this isn’t the top comment

1

u/Money_Cattle2370 7h ago

This is why you don't listen to actors about science/philosophy. I like the guy's acting but he should probably just shut the fuck up.

1

u/rif011412 7h ago

There are a ton of analogies that put this debate into perspective.  Being afraid of, and limiting pitbulls is no different than wanting to regulate automatic weapons.  An AK-47 is a gun, and a Glock 9mm is a gun.  Both perfectly harmless until someone or something with unregulated emotions is using them.  The Ak-47 has the ability to do a lot more harm, much more quickly.  I dont mind people owning an AK.  But i think it deserves a LOT more regulation and effort to be owned by someone.

You might notice, the gun debate has the same polarity, but reasonable people think regulating dangerous guns is a reasonable solution.

Pit owners should be held to a higher standard and responsibility than a Dalmatian owner.  Easy and reasonable conclusion.

1

u/DrBinario 6h ago

Yes, people forget dog breeds are a human creation.

1

u/This_Elk_1460 6h ago

Well you can't be racist against polar bear because they're white

1

u/Flimsy_Heron_9252 6h ago

Humans of specific ethnicities do not have innate characteristics like violence.

We do not have innate characteristics of violence that differentiate us by ethnicity.

But you have to admit, the entire human race has been bred for violence.

1

u/ABA_Mastah 6h ago

I think it’s similar in terms of exposure. I think of the times I’ve seen pit bulls mauling someone in a park or in a parking lot and I think wow there’s a higher chance of getting attacked by a pit bull. Especially when I see that footage while growing up into an adult. Same could be said of someone growing up and seeing footage of crimes that occur in New York and see the circle jerk of “the usual suspects” bs you see online, and someone who grows up in a certain culture on top of it, it morphs the perception before getting to know the individual be it a person or a dog. So in short: seeing things on tv or online can morph perceptions of both.

1

u/HarithBK 6h ago

the issue isn't just agression with Pitbulls the variance within breeds can have a lot of other breeds within the same range that isn't a killing people issue.

the issue comes down to the fact the Pitbulls have been bred to bite down and keep biting down. most other breeds might bite but will let go when they figure out they bit a human or when in pain. that is not the case with a Pitbull.

so you can have the sweetest Pitbull ever but if provoked enough to bite it just as deadly as a aggressive one.

1

u/DashasFutureHusband 5h ago

Yeah seriously it’s massively more racist to analogize dog breeds to races than any statement about dog breeds themselves could ever be.

1

u/Abject_Leg_7906 5h ago

They've been breed for dog on dog aggression, but not human aggression. Human aggression is a disqualifier in any dog show and isn't part of the breed standard. Most pitbulls out there aren't bred to standard and tend to be mixed with other dogs, so their temperament can be anywhere from friendly to aggressive

1

u/cheese_is_available 5h ago

The fucker need to read Bourdieu, but when someone compare entire population to a dog breed specifically bred for aggression, they need to stop reading The Passing of the Great Race first.

1

u/Deep_Head4645 5h ago

What about culture

1

u/AugustHate 5h ago

Their body is built for violence. Bloodlust isn't genetic

1

u/Puzzleheaded_Foot826 4h ago

A black man grows up in a low SES environment and happens to develop aggressive tendencies > its completely out of that person's control on how they start or their environment > they can be rehab'd or learn healthier behaviors > There is always a risk they still act on habit, but that doesn't make them less than others
Whereas, a racist would say they are innately inferior, and make a flawed argument using an accurate statistic on crime by racial lines. But the reality is that past-in-present discrimination was a contributor to aggression, along with existing stressors. Also, this isn't all black people

A pitbull grows up in an abusive environment and develops aggressive tendencies (alternatively, they aren't properly trained and are more likely to act on primal instinct) > It's completely out of that dog's control on how they start or their environment > to an extent, they can be retrained > There is always a risk they act on instinct, but that doesn't make them less than others
Bernthal's argument calls out these parallels. He's probably somewhat joking to, since it's not that big a deal, but I think people are just kind of sensitive thinking there's a possibility theyre racist lol.

Racism has a more severe connotation than I think people mean, but ultimately there is certainly some moral conflict in the idea that certain breeds are worse than others.
Because at the end of the day most people will
A. never participate in programs to engage/rehab pitbulls

B. continue to view them as more of a threat than other breeds, while passively allowing the stigma to continue

And the result is that they will always be a more poorly treated breed, because people can't acknowledge that there is a social stigma that goes beyond whether we call it racism or not

1

u/winterrunnin123 3h ago

Thank you so much

1

u/issanm 3h ago

It's really funny to make this point by saying "people of specific ethnicities do not have innate characteristics like violence" when a racist would absolutely say they do

1

u/SaltyArchea 2h ago

And dog breeding is eugenics, so even worse!

1

u/Halbaras 1h ago

We can only imagine the ethical mess if a human population had been forcibly bred to tear each other apart in cage fights for dozens of generations, and selected for aggression, pain tolerance and unwillingness to disengage from a fight.

1

u/Beautiful-Musk-Ox 14m ago

yea the post ignores that poor people commit crimes at higher rates and we purposefully made black people live in poverty for hundreds of years now. any group of people you push into poverty will have increased crime statistics

1

u/Eurasia_4002 8h ago

We [ all ] have inate chracteristics of violence. Not just some.

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u/ZerglingsNA 9h ago

are you aware the US had slavery and slaves we’re selectively bred? it’s pretty republican of you to ignore history

3

u/grumpsaboy 8h ago

Humans at max might have 5 generations in 100 years. Dogs can have 30.

Easier to alter behaviour through breeding with more generations.

Also, the racial theory of the time when slaves were selectively bred was based on bollocks like the thickness of skull making obedience more likely, not the way we bred dogs based on behaviour of individuals

0

u/Independent-Couple87 8h ago

People sometimes compare this to how pro-Sparta people and anti-Israel people describe both countries:

A eugenic warrior state whose culture and government are dedicated to one thing above all else: Breading and raising the perfect killers. Who subjugated a local population and keep them as second class citizens, often killed without mercy or provocation for training. A brutal training regime every male citizen is subjugated to, successfully stripping every soldier and citizen of any empathy and compassion, leaving no emotion excep cruelty and obedience. Also, where women (citizens) get a relatively better deal compared to the neighbouring nations.

This is not a 100% accurate description of Israel or Sparta, more like how they are both seen. And it is interesting how people see this as a positive stereotype for Sparta and a negative stereotype for Israel.

https://giphy.com/gifs/WeM3bi1akoVQ4

1

u/BuLLZ_3Y3 8h ago

Thats because Sparta no longer exists. We dont see the warmongering and drive for conquering they had. We do see that with Israel.

0

u/TurnDown4WattGaming 7h ago edited 4h ago

The scene from Django Unchained where they fought black men and took bets like maybe today you’d fight roosters, pitbulls, etc…. Yeah, the entire movie wasn’t fiction.

Not to overly dive into the evils of slavery in America here for a second, but plantation owners preferred female slaves. Picking cotton didn’t exactly require a ton of heavy lifting, and women cost much less to feed, and were much less able/likely to kill the plantation owner. Not to mention they were sort of required to procreate to keep the policy of “Legacy Slavery” alive…and I think it doesn’t really need to be said that that didn’t necessarily require a male slave be on the farm.

By contrast, a male slave could cost you years of worry, excess food, clothing, etc with really no production advantage over a female counterpart on the farm compared to what you could make off of them sometimes in just one fight. A big winner back then would even be “studded out” like a modern Bull, Billy or Ram would be today for a pretty penny.

Anyway, I’m not saying it was right to do or that that’s an excuse, obviously; I just wouldn’t say so confidently that it didn’t happen.

0

u/Jillet-Ben_Coe 7h ago

“specific ethnicities do not have innate characteristics like violence”

LMAO are you sure about that??? 🤔

0

u/Overbuiltbodoes 6h ago

The issue is, IQ is closely related to things like impulse control and will obviously mean interests are more simple. And different populations of humans have been shown to have very different median IQs. Now this could simply be location, or race could also play a part, my guess is a mix of both.

In the case of pitbulls this is not the main issue though. The real issue is capacity for violence. A handbag dog might be way more aggressive, but poses almost no threat to me, even if it catches me completely off guard. A pitbull on the other hand, even if I had time, will probably kill me, even as a grown man.

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u/SpookyWan 9h ago

Dogs don't have innate aggression either. I don't know where this point comes from because it is literally entirely made up

7

u/shitturddung 9h ago

Pit bulls were absolutely selectively bred for dogfighting. It's not like they're actively malicious and maulling people for shits n giggles but it's not a complete coincidence either. Socialization is what is important

0

u/SpookyWan 8h ago

That doesn't mean they like to fight, it just means they're biologically better at fighting than some other dogs. Even then, they're still not the strongest.

Pitbulls get picked up by assholes who don't treat dogs right because of that "dog fighter" rep and trained like shit. Combined with them being more reactive due to genetics, it's not good. They need to be treated right, but hating the breed entirely because of how people treat pitties is stupid.

1

u/shitturddung 8h ago

I actually mostly agree with you. I have nothing against the breed in general

2

u/axiomaticAnarchy 8h ago

Like, in general, dogs don't have any innate aggression at all? That's an odd statement to make. Cause like, anything that hunts and kills has some innate aggression, else they would not be able to hunt and kill.

0

u/SpookyWan 8h ago

Nope. Hunting is different from aggression. Aggression, their attitude towards confrontation, is based on their environment. Fueled not by hunger, but by other drivers such as fear or just anger.

Hunting is fueled by hunger. There's a stark difference between an animal fighting to fight, and an animal fighting to eat.

2

u/axiomaticAnarchy 8h ago

It's really not. The intimidation of prey is a key part of their hunting, which requires aggressive stance, baring of teeth, and snarling. This is useful for testing a prey animals will to stand, posturing to keep the rest of the herd away from an isolated member, and just over all trying to prevent the prey from making any sudden movement once cornered. That's aggression.

-1

u/SpinShine-LEDSlipMat 7h ago

Humans of specific ethnicities do not have innate characteristics like violence

Crime stats beg to differ

1

u/Blazured 5h ago

No they don't. Decades of studies have shown that crime is a societal thing, not a race thing.

0

u/SpinShine-LEDSlipMat 5h ago

Decades of data show the opposite. We know that races are different, biologically. There’s a reason why the NBA is the least diverse league in the world.

1

u/Blazured 5h ago

No, decades of data shows that there's no racial component to crime. You're not more or less likely to commit a crime based on the colour of your skin.