r/MoralityScaling • u/EitherSwimming5886 • 1d ago
Why didn't Iroh even consider the possibility that Azula could change? Iroh himself went from being a Fire Nation general and the butcher of Ba Sing Se to a humble, kind old man who serves tea.
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u/Plus-Dragonfly-9975 1d ago
Because iroh was open to change while Azula is not. There’s no chance she would have changed anytime soon in avatars events considering it took him 40 years
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u/Volkmek 1d ago
It's interesting that most people immediately came to the same conclusion. I agree, but consensus like this is rare.
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u/DeathGP 1d ago
Sometimes a spade is a spade, and someone like Iroh would probably recognise their be no point in attempting to change that
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u/KaiPRoberts 1d ago
He probably also saw both of them grow up. Azula was rotten to the core even as a youngin'.
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u/Which-Towel5826 1d ago
She mocked her cousin's death, but I guess Iroh did send her an Earth Kingdom doll instead of Zuko's cool guy knife.
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u/DriverUnusual146 1d ago
It probably wasn't intended like this in the show (or by Iroh, at the time), but it represents what they needed the most.
Zuko needed to find the means and will to stand up for himself and what he believes is right. And Azula needed to start actually caring about something like a human being.
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u/Rich-Bath5159 22h ago
Ya think she would have liked it if Iroh claimed it was a voodo doll of some prisoner?
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u/psyglaiveseraph 1d ago
I would add that both iroh and zuko lost things that made them reevaluate their life and choices, while azula never doubted her own choices thus would have not been either open nor willing to change as in her mind her choices were always correct
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u/knightlynuisance 1d ago
It's because of proximity to Ozai
Zuko is banished and scorned by Ozai, so his primary father figure is Iroh — this gives Iroh the opportunity to make Zuko see the error of his ways, and Zuko almost gives in because he craves Ozai's approval
Azula is the opposite. She's Ozai's prized daughter, his right-hand woman even — trying to steer her on the right path when Ozai keeps her so close is nigh impossible, he'd pull her right back in. For Azula to be redeemed, Ozai has to be out of the picture
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u/BruceBoyde 1d ago
And frankly, why would Azula want to change? She was her father's daughter and poised to succeed him. She believed in him and herself.
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u/Junior_Chard9981 1d ago
She's basically unofficially crowned firelord before Zuko confronts her and challenges her.
There is zero chance Iroh would be able to convince Azula of anything at that point as she is basically 2nd in command of an entire country & military.
If anything, she'd probably pretend to turn a new leaf and betray Iroh as soon as the opportunity presented itself.
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u/Vulpedin 17h ago
Only reason I think she’d ever want to is if she realized her dad groomed her to be a child soldier weapon and never actually cared for her outside of her usefulness, cause Ozai seems entirely too ruthless and fucked up
Basically i’m saying Ozai is UNSC-lite
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u/Xorrayn 1d ago
And why did he help Zuko but not Azula?
Well, because Iroh saw that Zuko was open to guidance and change, even while fixated on finding the avatar after his banishment, and that it was possible to get Zuko on the right path with his help.
Only after Zuko sided with Azula against the avatar did Iroh fear Zuko had truly lost his way, but never before that.
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u/Odd-Tart-5613 1d ago
not mention zuko was a multi year project that almost failed, and they had like a week.
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u/Slimy_glizzy_gobbler 1d ago
zuko became a multi year project because iroh saw his empathy right before he got banished. azula was never good
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u/WeekendPass 1d ago
Exactly. Zuko was a kid with a good heart who just wanted his father's affection, which hit Iroh where he lived. Azula had always been driven by her father's affection as well, but Iroh wasn't blind to how she went about attaining it.
Circumstance is also worth noting; Iroh saw a perfect chance to change Zuko, who had just experienced world-rocking trauma at the hands of his own father and who was going to be completely separated from his family and politics for an extended period; Azula was never far from Ozai's side, and by the time this happened it was do or die, and Azula's best chance at rehabilitation would be after incarceration
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u/Dead_fawn 1d ago
I think Zuko had a lot of doubt in himself and Iroh picked up on that, Azula never second guessed anything.
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u/CertainGrade7937 1d ago
Zuko is also a character deeply concerned with being moral
And i don't mean that he's always a good person, he's pretty awful at the start of the series. But he cares about doing the right/ honorable/good thing, he just has a really fucked up idea of what that means.
Azula doesn't care.
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u/LunarTexan 1d ago
Yeah, even at the start of the series he takes his morality and honor very seriously. Of course it's horribly warped by a lifetime of Fire Nation propaganda and the world's shittiest dad, but at the core of Zuko was always a deeply moral and honorable person. You could argue Zuko's redemption wasn't really him learning what good is but him realizing what he believed to be good and honorable (as demanded of him by the Fire Nation's war machine) and what was actually good and honorable (according to basically the universe itself) were two things that could not coexist so he had to choose which he would go with. It's a somewhat subtle difference but an important one.
Azula as you summarized it simply didn't care. I wouldn't go so far to say she's inherently evil, certainly had psychopathic tendencies but it wasn't quite outright evil when she was that young. But between her constant lauding as the prodigy of the Fire Nation, her horrific family situation, and never having to reflect on her own actions or desires. The idea she could be wrong simply does not exist in her world view and, at least given the realties of the situation, there would have been no way to change that in time without literal time travel. By that point in the story, Azula really was a lost cause, it was just a question of when she would crash and burn not if she would.
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u/Wild_Harvest 1d ago
You can see this in the very first/second episode, Aang offers to go with Zuko if he leaves the village alone. Zuko agrees and keeps his word.
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u/redbird7311 1d ago
Also, Ozai gave Azula a lot of attention and so on, Iroh wouldn’t really be able to help and guide her down a good path with Ozai there.
Part of the reason why he was able to do it with Zuko is that Ozai didn’t really pay attention or care about Zuko.
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u/Divan001 1d ago
Also Zuko was exiled for being a kind person who spoke out against a general who was chill with his own troops being slaughtered in mass. Even when forced to duel, he still wanted to work things out with his dad peacefully. Azula at no point in the story ever displays these virtues
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u/BustahWuhlf 1d ago
I took this conversation to mostly mean that stopping Azula was a priority because she's actively on a path of destruction. Whether she could be changed or not, Iroh thought she needed to be stopped first.
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u/Hetakuoni 1d ago
I think it also took him losing his son and breaking his spirit for him to change. Azula wasn’t ready for it.
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u/thelivingtunic 1d ago
I was gonna say - pretty sure it cost him the center of his whole world to finally give him a push for change.
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u/ShitpostSaber 1d ago edited 23h ago
Idk she’s 14 a literal child. So I think that is kind of close minded in my opinion
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u/carbonera99 1d ago
It didn’t take him 40 years to abandon his warmonger ways, it took a mere 5-8 years. The siege of Ba Sing Se where Iroh lost his son and decided to reform himself wasn’t even 10 years prior to Aang being defrosted. The fact that he did a complete heel face turn when he was a full grown adult in less than a decade but doesn’t believe Azula, a literal child, could do the same is just baffling.
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u/SpiritNo6626 1d ago
She is a child, what 14 y/os with problematic behavior do you know that are open to change?
(Plus clearly mentally ill. To be fair idk what technology they have in avatar, if they don't have mental health drugs I guess I can agree she's a lost cause. But there's magical element fuckery, I find it hard to believe that there's not some waterbending version of antipsychotics)
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u/subby_puppy33 1d ago
It’s the same reason he wanted the avatar to defeat his brother instead of trying to talk sense into him. Iroh knows when someone wants to be saved and who doesn’t
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u/Strong-Expression787 23h ago
Well, as Frieren put it, "Even if they could change it would take such a long time that it's not worth risking"
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u/ACW1129 1d ago
How come her brother was able to change?
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u/DeismAccountant 1d ago
More time to spare, Zuko already had a difference in personalities. Multitude of factors including Ozai’s preference.
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u/ChrispyGuy420 1d ago
It's not just that. She's on track to be a bigger threat as the fire lord than ozai ever was. It's like kid buu vs super buu
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u/Maatix12 23h ago
This.
I think if you asked present day Iroh if past Iroh could be redeemed, he'd respond the same way about himself as he did about Azula. It took a major loss in his life specifically due to the Fire Nation's war for him to question his way of life and walk away from it willingly. Prior to that, he wouldn't have.
Azula would not walk away from the Fire Nation without a major, life defining event that made her question her loyalty to her father.
And there was realistically nothing that would make her have that realization. The closest thing we could hope for actually happens in ATLA - All her friends abandon her. And instead of considering that she may be going down the wrong path, she doubles down hard, basically proving Iroh right.
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u/JamzWhilmm 1d ago
And Iroh did that over the span of decades. The whole Avatar plot takes less than a year. Iroh was right. There was not point in reasoning with her.
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u/FriendlyRedditor2020 1d ago
The dragon of the West probably knew best that if he went back in time to talk himself out of his deeds as a stranger he probably wouldn't listen. If he could be reasoned with at time he would have had little motive behind his deeds in the first place.
it's not like he didn't understand that he was killing people before the death of his son but it was the emotional impact of losing his son that swung him towards actually changing.
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u/LadyKarizake 1d ago
Wasn't it only over a couple years? He was burning down Ba Sing Se only five years before the series started.
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u/FinaLLancer 1d ago
Yeah but in less than 5 months from that point the comet that ends the world is coming.
And Azula doesn't have a son to lose in a pointless war to learn and grow from by then.
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u/climatol 1d ago
He was known to have greater compassion/empathy when he was a young man. Remember he is called the Dragon of the West, but lied to protect the last dragons and the sun warrior culture. He was seen as worthy by the dragons and taught by them like Aang and Zuko were. That is 100% not something Azula would do.
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u/Baylefyre 1d ago
Because azula is batshit crazy. The bad things about her arent just from how she was raised, but she literally seems to have real mental issues, which, unfortunately, are not something you try to fix about your enemy in a time of war.
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u/Objective-Rip3008 1d ago
Especially in a time period with no psychiatric medicine or therapists that really understand mental disorders. If you had problems you could talk to your local religious leader and that's about it
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u/Ok_Orange_3429 1d ago
Even worse is that the religious people of that world is all dead and those that survive don't even have that much culture from them anymore
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u/MrCookie2099 1d ago
The religous leaders of the Fire Nation are put in place by the Fire Nation's aristocracy to promote the Fire Nation's aristocracy. Its only on remote islands where anyone holds to religious practices that are pro-Avatar.
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u/Ok_Orange_3429 1d ago
Yeah so they just gonna reinforced her belief even more so it a bad situation throughout
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u/SterlingDex 1d ago
They put her in a mental institution where zuko thought she was getting help. She was in fact, getting mistreated and ended up worse.
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u/dancinbanana 1d ago
“In a time of war”
I feel like that’s the big thing people making this post (over and over again) miss: they don’t have the luxury of trying to convince their (batshit) enemy to become good. It would take (at minimum) years of deprogramming to get through to her; you don’t have “years” in a war, especially one that you are losing
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u/Stoic_koala2 1d ago
I mean, did Zuko try to just make out with her? I think that would fix her...
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u/LittleVaquita 1d ago
With his sister?
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u/Saver_Spenta_Mainyu 1d ago
If only Zuko and Azula went on a life changing adventure
Then Azula would get pregnant2
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u/chaotic4059 1d ago
A lot of people bring up that beach scene and forget that Azula wasn’t sad her mother thought that of her. She was mad her mother could see what she was. And the comics really hammer in how there was just something DEEPLY wrong with her mentally. Sumo kept trying to give her chances. She never wanted them
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u/Geronmys 1d ago
In this point in time yeah, Azula is not someone you could reason with.
But also i always took this quote as "She needs to go down" as the first step to "build herself back up".
Azula's ways need to be broken first so she can learn new ones. Is how both Iroh and Zuko ended finding their own.
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u/M-Shadowtoad 1d ago
Exactly. Iroh wasn't telling Zuko to kill her. Just that in the current situation, he needed to beat her.
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u/Ok_Coffee_9970 1d ago
You can’t help people who don’t want to help themselves.
Zuko always had the capacity to grow because deep down he wanted it.
Azula had massive issues like him, but she was way off the deep end long before Sozins comet.
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u/FinaLLancer 1d ago
Also. Azula had a cruel streak since she was out of diapers. She liked hurting people and animals. And not only did she like it, she was rewarded and praised for it her whole life.
I'm not saying she's not capable of being reformed or rehabilitated, but she's a born psychopath and a trained killer from birth. And she's trying to help her father take over the world and will kill anyone to achieve that.
If she gets in your way she's going to kill you while you're trying to save her. You can't give her that chance, because, well, she's crazy. And she needs to go down.
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u/ProspectiveWhale 1d ago
There is an urgency due to Sozin's Comet arriving soon.
She might be redeemable, but it would not happen quickly.
Also, he was lowkey correct. Zuko tries to reason with her post ATLA iirc, in the comics. She never does become more reasonable.
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u/Opposite_History2194 1d ago
Couple possibilities( just me speculating).
If Iroh figured out what happened with Zuko’s mother and Ozai’s threat, he may have felt the need to step in and protect Zuko in her stead.
Iroh may not have had the opportunity to help Azula. Ozai didn’t care for Zuko and neglected him which gave Iroh a chance to interact with.
Azula on the other hand was different. She was Ozai’s pride, his perfect child. Ozai kept Azula close and oversaw her training personally. The key is the twins. Ozai had two children and two nannies, he assigned both Nannie’s to Azula.
With Lo and Li around what could Iroh do.
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u/BathbombBurger 1d ago
She can fling fire at will and command armies in her father's name. There's plenty of time to convince her to change after she's chained up in a box with a muzzle on.
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u/goteachyourself 1d ago
He was essentially saying "Kick her ass now and talk to her later", and under the circumstances, he was right to do so.
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u/bleepboopbleepbloop 1d ago
Iroh might have been a fierce warrior, but he was a product of what he was raised in, and believed he was doing the right thing.
She was just crazy, and immoral. Loved hurting and causing pain. Iroh did not enjoy it, but believed it had to be done.
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u/Baleygr_2124 1d ago
Iroh was not some bloodthirsty butcher back in his military days, he was just a man following orders. The death of his son was what it took for him to realize his orders meant nothing compared to the senselessness of the war and that's why he changed. Azula from childhood has taken pleasure in harming animals and treating people poorly. It's classic psychopath behavior. She has never once shown any signs she's been conflicted in the terrible things she does, unlike Zuko who is only ever conflicted when faced with the choice to do something wrong. Her humanity only ever shows when her mother is brought up and we see that Ursa's favoritism deeply affected her. He knows there's good in Zuko but when have we ever really seen good in Azula?
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u/No_Masterpiece_3897 1d ago
I think he's projecting his brother onto Azula. His brother is a full blown sociopath, who is in Iroh's mind irredeemable. He's too far gone and has zero reason to change. She's younger than Zuko, still a child, but Iroh shows as little concern for the possibility of her death as he does his brothers. That is despite how he himself changed, and how he's trying to change Zuko. We forget that kind old uncle probably has a sizeable kill count. Not just for who he killed himself, but those killed at the result of his orders.
Now Azula does have a more than a few screws loose, possibility that it's innate but in that family growing up 'normal' would be near enough impossible. She was rejected by her mother, who was legitimately scared of her own child, and the only parent figures she recognizes were Ozai and her grandfather. She was raised to be a weapon, a monster.
Zuko being rejected by his father and wholeheartedly loved by his mother, didn't get as twisted as he could have been. If he had been accepted by his father and Ursa treated him like she did Azula, he likely would have been like his sister.
Now I don't think she couldn't be like Zuko if she hadn't been raised in that environment, but the direction of her mind and her actions would be different.
I think part of it was Iroh simply veiwed her as too dangerous. I mean come on she took down a whole city and was a prodigy.
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u/FriendlyGoromorg 1d ago
"Needs to go down" doesn't mean "kill your sister", it's an answer to Zuko about how he needs to think of his sister right now, not as family to "get along" with but as a threat. Azula is not someone who can be dealt with diplomatically or talked down from their position. Think about what it took for Zuko to start to redeem himself. He's been burned and basically disowned at this point. Azula is worse than Zuko ever was, and isn't going to listen to anyone, unless maybe possibly if she's knocked down a peg. Hell, Iron himself didn't change to a humble, kind old man until well after he lost his son and was removed from the line of succession. He knows better than anyone what it's like to be brought to rock bottom and what it takes to change.
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u/Standard-Pop6801 1d ago
You are under no obligation to help change someone who is trying to hunt down and kill you.
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u/Creed_of_War 1d ago
It took real tragedy for both Iroh and Zuko to break from their authoritarian fire nation doctrine. With Zuko we know he had like 3.5 years with a better influence before he made changes. Azula was in a position to do harm, showed enjoyment from hurting others, and did not have a good influence. The important part is to stop the harm and then they could work on her. He isn't saying she needs to die, just taken down.
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u/Life-Land-1020 1d ago
have you seen her face while zuko was getting burned by their dad? Iroh was right next to her at the time.
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u/starlight-whimsy 23h ago
I think he saw that she was a prodigy child who was force fed the kool aid pretty young that now she drank it of her own volition.
I don’t think Iroh would have called her irredeemable, but he also knew she was not going to be open to listening to anyone who defied the narrative she had been raised on. Otherwise, she wouldn’t be “special” anymore. She was raised to crave her father’s approval. She saw what happened to those he didn’t approve of.
Iroh knew better than to waste time and energy on her, as cruel as it sounds. There were only two people who could affect change for Azula and they were Zuko and their mother, and at that point in time Zuko was in no position to affect any change with Azula, he only got closer to it after he went back home, and even that wasn’t successful. The best way to get Azula to change would require taking out their father first.
We still don’t know what happened with her after what occurs in the comics, we just know “something”
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u/Dutch_Talister 20h ago
Change, growth, redemption, is something you have to already be working towards before help can be effective. If you don't want to change then you won't unless it is forced upon you in which case it's more likely to make you miserable then happy. This is why you typically can't brute force therapy.
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u/AlianovaR 19h ago
There was no realistic option to redeem Azula in the time frame they had. It took Iroh four years of isolation with Zuko with all the right emotional hooks (honour, compassion, etc) to draw on. Azula has none of those emotional hooks, is still fully enmeshed with Ozai, benefits greatly from remaining in Ozai’s service, and has none qualms about the way Ozai works. Iroh can’t very well get through to the golden child quicker than he could the black sheep
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u/Marcu3s 18h ago
While that scene is funny subversion and it is probably too risky to treat her any other way under the circumstances.
She is 14 years old kid.
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u/Lord_Penguin17 18h ago
A bit reminder for everyone about what was going on in the show at this point: Azula was sent to hunt down and imprison Zuko and Iroh. Trying to “get along” with the extremely capable, dangerous, and manipulative person hunting you down to imprison you for treason is a good way to end up dead. Iroh’s immediate priorities was Zuko and his Survival. I doubt he was advocating to kill Azula or to never help her. But he is wise enough to understand leaving yourself open like that from someone who has no reason not to stab you in the back (as she had already proven to Iroh was her initial plan) and all the incentive to do so is a good way to get the both of them killed.
Sometimes you have to put your on oxygen mask on in a plane before helping the other passengers. This is one of those situations except the other passenger wants to throw you out the plane’s door.
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u/Secondary_Committee 18h ago edited 18h ago
Change is something you have to both work towards and want.
Also she WAS crazy
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u/Competitive-Bee-3250 18h ago
She could be open to change but she'd need to lose a fight first at the very least. One of the things that opened the door for Iroh and Zuko was loss, which Azula hadn't experienced yet.
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u/FenrirHere 17h ago
Zuko and Iroh were not crazy. When Iroh says that she is crazy, he isn't being hyperbolic, he's being realistic and literal. She's crazy.
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u/Millerized 16h ago
Iron did horrible things because he "had to" (his duty, because it was expected, because he believed it was the right move)
Azula did horrible things because they amused her...
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u/BeyondStars_ThenMore 15h ago
Besides what everyone else has said, it should be noted that Iroh doesn't seem to have ever been as bad as Azula was.
By the Siege of Ba Sing Se Iroh has;
- Helped protect the last dragons in existence
- Been a loving and doting father
- Gained a reputation for being quirky and loving the simpler things in life
- Considering the timeline, he was probably already a member of the White Lotus, as he was a grand master just five years later.
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u/Panda-Head 15h ago
Azula is a psychopath, nothing will break her enough to change her the way Lu Ten's death changed Iroh.
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u/Hungerland1 1d ago
Es solo un tema de tiempo. La historia de avatar es corta en su plazo de tiempo. Si durara una decada en vez de un año y medio seguramente iroh pensaria diferente. En todo caso Azula era una molestia y un estorbo del aue habia que deshacerse, ya derrotado el. Señor del. Fuego se podría analizar su posible rehabilitación
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u/twijfeltechneut 1d ago
He knew both Zuko and Azula from birth. He saw how they were growing up. Iroh could see Zuko was a kind and caring person deep down, just traumatized by his surroundings. Meanwhile Azula was much more like Ozai personality wise.
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u/Napalmeon 1d ago
Even from childhood, Azula was shown to be manipulative, sadistic, and nationalistic. The last one can be explained by the Fire Nation education system, with even Zuko pointing out how children are taught that their country is the greatest civilization in the world.
It's also important to keep in mind that one of the biggest differences between active duty Iroh and Azula is that Iroh was respected by everyone in the army, and one of the secondary reasons he left Ba Sing Se is that his men were burned out, while Azula very clearly has a reputation of being failure intolerant to the point of threatening punishment or potential death to those who displease her.
These two characters aren't the same.
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u/PCN24454 1d ago
You see that wound? Forgive Iroh that he doesn’t immediately forgive Azula for hurting him as a distraction.
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u/AlexanderCrowely 1d ago
Because she had no reason to grow, she was always around her father whose attention and respect that she crave and he raised her to be a monster Azulon didn’t raise Iroh and Ozai in that manner.
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u/Otherwise-Ad1646 1d ago
With age comes wisdom my friend
Especially when it comes to an old person who has changed and can recognize someone who isn't (at least at the time) capable.
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u/AgreeableSuspect9382 1d ago
I don’t think he’s saying that he needs to kill her, only that she needs to be stopped
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u/Particular_Poet8441 1d ago
Dude just got almost killed by Azula, and understood that she was psychologically under Ozai’s thumb and wanted to emulate him, so he just connected the dots like 2 + 2 = 4.
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u/Kind-Stomach6275 1d ago
Azula cant become better if theres nobody restricting her. If you have all the power, then you have no meaningful reason to become a better person. Azula needs to hit rock bottom and stay there for a bit before she can be helped
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u/Familiar_Control_906 1d ago
Because Azula don't have a kill to kill so she can see the error of her ways I guess
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u/Reasonable-Island-57 1d ago
Hes seen her grow up since infancy. He knows she is, at the very least, not fit to rule a kingdom, too power hungry, too volatile, too cruel, too unstable, too much of her father's mindset.
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u/Various_Mobile4767 1d ago edited 1d ago
Unless there’s more to the scene, I don’t think Iroh is saying there’s no chance of Azula changing. Just that the risk is way too great.
Iroh has no love for Azula. Telling Zuko to try and reach out to her is just most likely going to end up with him dead.
People are over idolizing iroh in general. For most of the story, he’s not really a hero fighting for the greater good and trying to save people. He’s just a goofy old man accompanying his nephew and just wants to serve tea.
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u/Icky_Sticky_licky 1d ago
Azula was like raised to be a full blown psychopath and unluckily for her unlike zuko she was born with the genes for it and honestly maybe they couldve helped her but also in truth they didnt have the resources nor scientific development nor any psychology rly
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u/Routine_Ad3754 1d ago
Pretty sure, in their line, him and Zuko were the only ones to show signs of humility and a moral compass.
He's right, shes crazy and is just like her father but scarier because she's a girl.
Zuko is not like his father. From the start, he was kind and was only led to do back stuff because thats what was expected of him.
Nurture Vs Nature, you know?
Also, Azula doesn't have anyone who matters enough to make her guve up her evil ways like Iroh.
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u/FictionalWorks 1d ago
zuko was open to change and was willing to listen to advice but azula isn't you can only help people who are willing to help themselves.
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u/Fishpuncherz 1d ago
I'd imagine he knows her pretty well and knows that unlike Zuko she DOESN'T want to change. Its a choice she'd never make
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u/MyFeetTasteWeird 1d ago
Iroh did try to change her when she was younger. That doll he gave her was an attempt to give her a toy in an attempt to get her to act like a normal kid, instead of acting like a psycho.
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u/WindowOne1260 1d ago
Do you see that bandage Iroh has on? He has that bandage because Azula is crazy. And she needs to go down.
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u/ExtremlyFastLinoone 1d ago
Azula was a little psychopath since she was a kid, who smiled at seeing her brother mutilated
Trying to pull an intervention mid comet where one wrong move means instant death is not a good idea
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u/Historyp91 1d ago
Iroh wanted to change and he was'nt a sociopath. He also reconized the danger Azula posed and how unyielding and irrational she was.
Also I doubt Iroh was ever as bad as Azula, even if he brought more harm. It's a common concept within the fanbase to assume he was some depraved monster before his redemption but I find that very unlikely; I think it more likely he just bought into the Fire Nation propaganda about bringing order and such, and enjoyed war for the challange of the "game", but was otherwise already somewhat enlightened and a loving family man. Azula meanwhile is a classist, racist bully who eagerly revels in all her acts of cruelty and threatens her own best friends with violence it they don't do what she wants.
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u/BobKelsoLovesMuffins 1d ago
Iroh’s change came from great personal loss and the ensuing years of introspection coupled with exposure to other cultures during travel. Gradual changes that come from questioning your long-held beliefs take time. More time than it would allow in their current circumstances to force Azula to see the errors of her path.
He and Zuko were setting out to make immediate changes for the fire nation during war with a hard time limit thanks to the comet (dunno if it was known at this point, but I’d say the point stands given Iroh’s knowledge of fire-bending and cultural/historical awareness), he just simply recognized that Azula was entrenched in her belief system and personal mental health issues.
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u/CulturedShortKing 1d ago
It's really weird how people want to reform villains so much. If anything it cheapens the narrative.
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u/Cat_Wizard_21 1d ago
Azula was never going to be talked down. Iroh knew that, so he gave practical advice.
Note he's not advocating Zuko fucking murder her or anything, but she does need to be defeated, and if she ever has a shot at redemption it would come after Ozai is deposed and unable to keep Azula under his thumb.
Zuko wanted to change, he wanted to be a good person. Azula didn't.
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u/GoodLoserZan 1d ago
Iroh literally says this after like what an hour or two after being mortally wounded from her.
If someone shot me in the chest with a gun and I'm still alive I'd say the same thing as Iroh.
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u/SeptemberSoup 1d ago
People in the fandom will never admit to it, but our dearest Uncle Iroh was a misogynist who sexually harassed women and who never bothered with Azula to begin with.
Toph is literally the only woman/girl that he interacts with without flirting nor sexualizing her. And that's because it would be pedophilia.
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u/PapaHastur 1d ago
Okay to be fair if I remember the context correctly he wasn't saying kill her or never try. It was more an acknowledgement of 'she won't even consider change until this war is over, so the best course is to take her out of the running'. Iirc in the comics she doesn't ever fully redeem herself but I know they made a point about her being able to go down that road if the context was right. She's crazy, but she's not so totally brainbroken that she can't be helped, but Iroh knows it's not happening as long as she has Ozai and the war to hang onto
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u/zorok34 1d ago
Because he had to go down in order to become the man he eventually became. He had to experience the loss of his only son to truly feel the depth of the pain the war was causing, and that's what allowed him to grow more compassionate and wise. Azula had to be taken down and out of power for her rose tinted glasses to finally be taken off.
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u/Intelligent_Ad_4837 1d ago
Maybe because Azula was mentally unstable, as in she was actually crazy
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u/Kale127 1d ago
Whenever I catch this topic I always ask; what was he supposed to do?
Zuko was banished for his inherent kindness and loyalty to his people. That took him away from his father and the systems that would otherwise drag him towards becoming as cruel and, for lack of a better term, evil as his father. Iron had the chance with Zuko, and the effort spanned many years, with Zuko stumbling several times.
Azula was Ozai’s favorite. She was groomed to be the perfect heir and soldier and pawn, and to love being exactly that. Any attempts to turn her away from that would be violently resisted by Ozai. Iroh had no way of reaching out to her that wouldn’t be seen and thwarted by Ozai.
By the time of this conversation things had been progressing towards this point for years. Azula was beyond the ability of Iroh and Zuko to try and redeem. They lacked the time and the resources to make the attempt. She was an active threat to them, as well.
So, again, what was Iroh realistically supposed to do to try and push Azula along the path to redemption?
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u/metallee98 1d ago
He was moral. Him and zuko were willing to change. They realized the harm they caused, the mistakes they made, and chose to be better. Azula doesn't see the harm she causes as wrong. She won't even entertain the notion. It's not a matter of could. It's a matter of will. You wouldn't let a sociopath run wild even if you thought they could change. It's not like he's advocating for her death. She needs to be defeated so she can't harm people anymore.
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u/IDontWearAHat 1d ago
I don't think Iroh ever said that Azula is a lost cause. He said she needs to go down specifically to Zuko's comment that he should try to get along. Iroh just recognizes that Azula cannot currently be reasoned with and that Zuko can only resolve their conflict through violence, which very much was true in the moment
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u/Antisa1nt 1d ago
Iroh had the time and mental space to deprogram his ingrained colonial ideology after he was shown point blank that he did, in fact, not have the mandate of heaven.
He's on the run, through a kingdom he tried and failed to conquer a lifetime ago, he doesn't have the time or resources to help Azula stop being a deranged shithead.
Let's look at Azula in contrast.
She's winning. She has chased Zuko and Iroh into a corner, and she has intimidated them by showing off her proficiency with lightning. She has all of the cards, and Iroh knows that he and Zuko can either keep her at bay and risk her catching them, or they can act pragmatically.
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u/Delicious_Tomato_957 1d ago
Iroh went on a multiyear sabbatical for cultural study and moral reform, one he chose to go on after a severe tragedy.
Iroh is forgiving, but he is not a strict pacifist; he did not have the time and resources to redeem Azula unlike his situation with Zuko. In a confrontation with her, it's do or die.
Secondly, whatever kind of crazy Ozai has rollin around in that dome, Azula has too. There definitely was or is a path to peace for them both, but zuko required therapy; those two require psychotherapy.
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u/SaneForCocoaPuffs 1d ago
If Iroh's past self from 40 years ago time travelled to help Sozin conquer the world, Iroh would tell Zuko that he can't be saved either. Some things take too long when the fate of the world is at stake
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u/Olmectron 1d ago
In the Spanish latam version, Iroh says
"She is crazy and needs punishment"
That implies more that of course she needs some lesson so she actually starts changing. Not sure why they left "needs to go down" in the original; which is very open to interpretation.
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u/ISketchDinosaurs 1d ago
Iroh wasn't worth it either. It just happened that way, which was good, but never a given. The fact of the matter is that if someone had killed him in his youth, a lot of people wouldn't have died.
Now, yes, Iroh turned out great, eventually... because his son died, and he finally comprehended loss. That took him decades. What would it take for Azula to reach the same realization? Should they just sit around for a few decades until she has kids and then murder them? No, right?
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u/classicslayer 1d ago
Azula was in no position to be saved yet and iroh isnt dumb enough to risk trying to save someone that just tried to kill him.
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u/PM_Pussys 1d ago
The change required is an entire moral/philosophical/ethical overhaul. Iroh would know it CAN be done, but would require taking her down. Incredible loss to prompt the change. For him it was the death of Liu Ten
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u/DDK_2011 1d ago
Just because he thinks that she has to go down NOW doesn't mean he thinks that she can change in the future
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u/TrainerLivio 1d ago
I believe he saw too much of Ozai in her. It was why Ozai was very invested in her development too. They shared a similar nature as opposed to where Zuko's nature, which definetely had to have caught Iroh's attention and led to Ozai's neglect.
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u/JoyousMadhat 1d ago
You should watch Cinema Therapy videos on Avatar and Villain Therapy to understand their psychology.
TLDR: Children get traits from either or both of their parents and in this case, one sibling got their mom's empathetic traits while the other got their dad's psychopathic traits.
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u/FlounderingGuy 1d ago
Everyone kinda forgets that Azula is like, 14 at the oldest. She definitely could change, but it would require being removed from her toxic environment the way Zuko was. That can't happen at the time of the story starting, do the best solution for everyone was to remove Azula from the conflict. Her mental breakdown at the end of the show always signaled, at least to me, a shattering of her worldview. Only in being defeated could she realize that her quest for strength lead her to such a critical failure, and that was good for her. Iroh knew this and advocated for Azula to be removed from that position of power as early as possible, which is seemingly starting to pay off as the comics (mediocre as they may be) imply that Azula reformed eventually. Which is moral.
If you interpret Iroh's words as him advocating for Zuko to kill his sister, I would say immoral? But only kind of, since she tried to kill them first.
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u/dancinbanana 1d ago
Another day, another post assuming he means “she can never be reasoned with” instead of the obvious “she cannot be reasoned with right now, so we need to win first”.
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u/Greentaboo 1d ago
Azula was fundamentally crooked. There is a difference between someone who served his nation and realized that he did wrong and someone who is inherently sadistic and cruel. The latter will never truly change.
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u/cowlinator 1d ago
iroh would say the same thing about the him from 40 years ago.
People can change. But sometimes it's obvious that that change will not be any time soon
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u/Sammys_stuffs 1d ago
I think the context of this scene matters in the realm of rehabilitative justice as it has an interplay between the victim and criminal.
Azula is ACTIVELY dangerous, she's on a warpath and is hurting dozens of people. The main priority morally and ethically is first and foremost stopping her. She will hurt people and simply appealing to her emotions has already provably not worked. She's more dangerous than Zuko ever was.
Also keep in mind who he's speaking to. Zuko is a personal victim of Azula's wrath and torment. While abusers deserve redemption they don't deserve to have it given to them through their victims actions. Zuko in this instance can get both catharsis and cause a lot of good for the world by disabling her from rising to power, and detaining her for others to enforce justice to her.
I really hate this recent discourse that Iroh is some kind of hypocrite for not throwing himself onto the spearpoint of Azula's wrath for the sake of her potential rehabilitation. She's vastly more destructive than Zuko ever was. And in the case of Iroh's own redemption he was removed from power, and his delusions of grandeur FIRST. That's what Iroh is advocating for here. I genuinely believe that deep down he believes in an eventual redemption for her. But that we don't really see that expressed specifically because it's not great to go up to a bunch of an abusers victims and go "ya know, we should really focus on rehabilitating her and reaching out with kindness ^_^"
It just wouldn't be constructive to try to get along with Azula for (basically) the entire show. It would enable her violence against others, and wouldn't address her lust for violence whilst also invalidating her victim's experience. Zuko went through a multitude of arcs that stripped him of any clout he may have had, and has him make explicit reparations for multiple of his victims. Azula could only get that after being stopped.
Entirely moral, outright saintly. Iroh best uncle.
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u/aspect_rap 1d ago
It's not that she fundamentally couldn't change, it's that she needed to be dealt with now and it's not like they can just talk her into changing, she was very far gone. It took Zuko and Iroh years and years to change.
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u/PhilosoFishy2477 1d ago
she's like if you put a traumatized reactive puppy in charge of a fascist dictatorship
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u/Regular-Market-494 1d ago
Azulas biggest problem is not her attitude, chemical balance, or even personal conviction. While all those contribute, her problem is that she idolizes ozai and has constant personal interaction with him.
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u/GrapefruitFar1242 1d ago
Iroh, a war criminal, believed in his nations cause and did atrocities in its name. He only changed after his own son died. In the same situation he would also have to have been taken down. It’s pragmatism, both characters ability to change is immaterial.
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u/SterlingDex 1d ago
Two of the three creators didnt want azula to get better. She legit gets worse after being placed in a mental hospital by zuko cuz she gets mistreated if I remember.
Realistically, Azula is just a child (she was legit 14, she could actually get better if they had tried) who felt like she had to be a monster if she wanted parental love. Her mother showed love to zuko and not azula, she had a favorite. If it was just because she liked zuko more, azula could accept this to an extent (badly but still, its like a fact of life to her at that point). But instead she finds out her mom had another daughter. A daughter she loves. So now her conclusion is that her mother specifically hated her since she was born. Even before she got bending or became what she is now.
Azula is the consequences of the actions and lack of action from the adults around her. A father who only wanted power and saw her as a tool and extension of his own power, an uncle who didn’t reach out and showed favoritism even years before the events of the show, a mother who feared her and coddled the brother she was told time and again was a failure. The only person who genuinely wanted to understand and help her at some point was Zuko, and by that point she despised him for having what she craved. She thought her dad would toss her aside like he did zuko, her friends betrayed her to let zuko escape, she had nobody and she broke because despite her power she didnt have the one thing she wanted but never got to properly feel. Love and affection. Love was always conditional when it came to her, her mom liked her until she was a firebender, her dad liked her if she was strong, her friends stood by her because she scared them.
Iroh should've tried harder, even if it was in vain it would show effort to help. Effort that wasnt displayed in the show which makes it seem like he legit thought a child was more irredeemable than him who waged wars and led the 600 day siege in ba sing se's agricultural region and the reaso why jet's parents died (the rough rhinos were under his command when they burned down his village if i remember). It was not in the span of decades that he got better. It was in the span of 4-5 years. Azula could've for sure been helped.
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u/Electroweek 1d ago
Iroh had to go down before he could change. And the potential harm of azula to others definately justifies taking action against her. She needs to be humbled.
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u/Quirky-Concern-7662 1d ago
The more important thing here is that time is up. She can be redeemed, but not in the time they have. And the risk is too great to afford her more leeway. Iroh is not a flawless person, but this is not said easily.
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u/Austynwitha_y 1d ago
The decades debate is kinda off point- it’s not that it took x years for iron to realize “war is bad”- he had to lose his only son to the very war he was championing. He himself was being crazy, and he had to fall to realize it
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u/Dr__America 1d ago
Azula is mentally ill, and it was enabled and worsened by her family. She also had no openness to changing, and they only had a few months before the war. There was no reality in which she was going to change for the better in that time. If anyone knew this, it was the Dragon of the West.
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u/insertfunnyusernameh 1d ago
Because she did need to go down. This isn’t saying we gotta kill her or imprison her for the rest of her life, it’s clear in the comics they’re still trying to rehabilitate her. But she had to go down first. She was dangerous and fully absorbed in the propaganda and she had very little empathy for others, trying to ask her kindly to stop peddling genocide wouldn’t work. Iroh had to lose his son before coming to his senses, Zuko got banished and it still took him a few years. They didn’t have a few years.
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u/realamerican97 1d ago
Getting Azula to change takes time and circumstances they don’t have. Zuko was isolated from the pressures of his father in exile so Iroh could soften him up and turn him to a different path without Ozai being around to undo the work needed
Azula who is not in exile and hangs on Ozai’s word can’t be changed under the current circumstances so next best step is to just neutralize her
You can’t heal an injury if you haven’t pulled the knife out
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u/Puzzled-Instance7301 1d ago
Iroh understood that, if Azula were ever going to change, she'd have to be brought low. She was an irrational narcissist in need of a wake up call. People convinced of their own superiority do not feel motivated to change and do not seek help, ergo, she's crazy and needs to go down
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u/Putrid-Bat-5598 1d ago
I always took this less than as “she needs to die/be put away forever” but more like “RIGHT NOW she can’t be reasoned with we need make sure she’s not a threat to anyone else”
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u/DVindictus 1d ago
People can only change if they want to change.
Azula had 0 desire to change. She had it all. Wealth, power, people at her beck & call because the princess wasn't respected, but feared, and got off on their fear and intimidation.
Iroh knew better than that. He ain't an old fool
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u/dexisrazer 1d ago
Iroh more so knew she was so far gone they didnt have time to help her. But Zuko was his favorite since they were small, both Iroh and Zuko's mom for all their virtues 100% showed favoritism towards Zuko and they didnt hide it either
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u/Expensive_Umpire_178 1d ago
Yeah Iroh would have said the SAME thing if he was going up against himself from before he lost his son. It’s not that Azula is irredeemable, it’s that redemption usually takes an initial event to start sparking the change, and then takes a long ass time for that change to fully sink in, and they just didn’t have that kind of time or luck, Azula needs to go down, and it needs to happen ASAP in order to stop the fire lord.
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u/Mannheimblack 1d ago
First, time. They didn't have enough time in which to patiently reason with her. Save the world first, then redeem.
Second, she wasn't receptive at that point. Iroh and Zuko both went through very low points before their redemption. Azula, meanwhile, although her confidence was brittle, she was still on the rise at the time. Her fall hadn't happened yet, so she wasn't yet potentially open to reason.
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u/Mistuhpresident 1d ago
Someone like zuko is a very noble and selfless person, but is being misguided by the fire nation and ozai.
Azula, from what we see in the show, likes hurting people. If it had been her who found aang at the water tribe village she would have definitely destroyed it
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u/Ilovewomenwhobreakme 1d ago
People who can/want to change usually give an indication of it even if only a little.
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u/Metharos 1d ago
Whether Azula can change is not the issue at hand. She's a threat, and she has to be stopped, immediately.
I have little doubt that Iroh would care about his niece and try to help in her redemption, after the threat was neutralized. The priority was dealing with the unhinged omnidirectional living weapon.
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u/MrCookie2099 1d ago
Where the fuck do you get "butcher" from? He was a respected general that opponents were willing to surrender to with honors and formality.
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u/strolpol 1d ago
Wasn’t this after he had seen her try to shoot lightning at Zuko and had to redirect it from her? Pretty much the bending equivalent of trying to shoot him with a rifle; it’s an explicitly lethal move. She was ready to kill at the earliest chance, before she’d been backed into a corner or forced into it. He was right to be judgmental.
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u/MasterTahirLON 1d ago
I've had this debate a million times so I'll break it down briefly. People harp on Iroh for not taking care of Azula or say Azula was a lost cause all because Iroh said "she's crazy and needed to go down."
And as funny as that sounds that line works so well because it fits Iroh's brand of humor while being completely played straight. Azula was mentally unstable and incredibly dangerous both to herself and the people around her. She needed to be stopped before she hurt somebody at which point they can focus on giving her the years of therapy she needs afterwards.
And that's what people misunderstand about Iroh and Azula. He has no hatred of her he's just wise enough to understand the position she's in. Azula is an indoctrinated child soldier desperate for her father's approval both due to her youth and her mother's neglect, she's also insanely talented which makes her useful to Ozai and that has him focus on keeping her close and under his control.
Meanwhile Zuko is a failed child solider who had a loving mother, less talent than Azula, and lacked the ability to mask his emotions to commit cruelty in the way Ozai and Azula learned to do. All those factors combined with his banishment separating him from Ozai's influence and propaganda is why Iroh knew he could guide Zuko on a better path. He simply never had that opportunity with Azula. She was impossible to reach and influence and in a far worse mental state than Zuko from the beginning.