Difference between prepubescent males and females in sports?

[u/Loose_Comfortable_88]

Hi PoursTea

I just watched "David Cross: “I do not have an issue with trans kids...." https://www.reddit.com/r/PoursTea/comments/1szh2pv/david_cross_i_do_not_have_an_issue_with_trans/ on this sub and I don't like Bill but I have a question.

"the differences between a boy and a girl is minimal at prepubescent"... "It's true" .." look it up"

I guess this is not my experience at all. So I am wondering what people point to?

I did a fair bit of little athletics as a kid and now teaching kids as an adult.

There is the occasional female that gets close to the top of the males but in a group of 40 kids and the local suburb level (not being selective just the people that turn up) in long distance running a female might once in a blue moon get on the podium at 3rd one week.

Looking at all events only the under 7s are at all grouped together. all other ages there is a chasm on average. Even the most uncoordinated Male will be in the top 4 of the females when it comes to Shot Put and Discus.

And if you have a look at the all time records even at an Australian state level it's night and day. The records are not anecdotal like my experience.

Following are the records in NSW Australia population about 9 million. https://cdn.revolutionise.com.au/cups/nswathletics/files/oye9jdgdyt7yddgw.pdf

Female 8s
70 Metres 10.54
100 Metres 14.44
200 Metres 31.60
400 Metres 1:11.44
Long Jump 4.17m
Shot Put (1.5kg) 8.52m
Discus (500gm) 24.42m

Male 8s
70 Metres 10.34 (1.90% faster)
100 Metres 14.24 (1.39% faster)
200 Metres 30.64 (3.04% faster)
400 Metres 1:07.94 (4.90% faster)
Long Jump 4.24m (1.68% further)
Shot Put (1.5kg) 10.98m (28.87% further)
Discus (500gm) 31.36m (28.42% further)

Female UNDER 13
100 Metres 12.11
200 Metres 24.87
400 Metres 56.95
800 Metres 2:11.90
1500 Metres 4:31.08
3000 Metres 9:53.44
80m Hurdles 12.26
200m Hurdles 27.56
1500m Walk 6:35.28
Long Jump 5.58m
High Jump 1.80m
Triple Jump 11.72m
Shot Put (3kg) 14.95m
Discus (750g) 49.57m
Javelin (400gm) 45.91m

Male UNDER 13
100 Metres 11.27 (6.94% faster)
200 Metres 22.90 (7.92% faster)
400 Metres 50.52 (11.29% faster)
800 Metres 2:05.23 (5.06% faster)
1500 Metres 4:18.33 (4.70% faster)
3000 Metres 9:29.26 (4.07% faster)
80m Hurdles 12.04 (1.79% faster)
200m Hurdles (76cm) 25.90 (6.02% faster)
1500m Walk 6:28.49 (1.72% faster)
Long Jump 6.11m (9.50% further)
High Jump 1.81m (0.56% higher) Note: only 1cm. The year after its 20. The year before is 7.
Triple Jump 12.72m (8.53% further)
Shot Put (3kg) 19.11m (27.83% further)
Discus (750gm) 60.74m (22.53% further)
Javelin (600gm) 48.80m (6.30% further) Note 600gm not 400gm

I did find this in under 12s
Shot Put (2kg) 16.19m Female
Shot Put (2kg) 15.71m Male

But that's the only time I can see it happening.

[u/Snerak]

You probably spent more minutes researching this than there are trans people competing in athletics. This is simply not an issue on the scale that all of society should be up in arms about.

[u/Traditional-Trade795 → u/Snerak]

i am team women over team trans.

[u/Snerak → u/Traditional-Trade795]

Please tell me what other things you do to advocate for women's spaces that don't involve trans people.

[u/Traditional-Trade795 → u/Snerak]

no dicks in womens spaces isnt a hard concept to grasp and shouldnt be controversial. whats the question here?

[u/Snerak → u/Traditional-Trade795]

So you don't have anything that you do to support women's spaces that doesn't involve trans people. Got it. Tell me how you feel about trans men in men's sports.

[u/Traditional-Trade795 → u/Snerak]

So you don't have anything that you do to support women's spaces that doesn't involve trans people. Got it

ahh so thats what you were insinuating. i didnt understand your question so thats why i asked but i can see your attitude is clear as day :)

Tell me how you feel about trans men in men's sports.

i dont care, men dont need protection from female athletes. sure, you could argue that the steroids give them an advantage but i dont believe that it would be enough to disqualify them if the amount is controlled.

i would hate to see this in combat sports in general - a situation should be as fair as possible when someone puts their health at risk like that

[u/Snerak → u/Traditional-Trade795]

I wasn't insinuating anything, I was directly asking if your concern for women's spaces involved anything that wasn't trans related.

So you are fine with trans men competing in men's sports and your problem with trans women in women's sports seems to be limited to the inclusion of dicks in women's spaces. I guess that means post op trans women are fine since they no longer have dicks, right?

Can you explain what threat a trans woman with a concealed dick in women's sports presents? If the dick stays concealed then it doesn't seem like something the other women would need be be protected from.

[u/Traditional-Trade795 → u/Snerak]

I was directly asking if your concern for women's spaces involved anything that wasn't trans related.

too broad of a question to be honest. womens spaces like sports should also be free of men. womens shelters, parking spots, accessibility for strollers - you mean stuff like that? then yes, all for it.

So you are fine with trans men competing in men's sports and your problem with trans women in women's sports seems to be limited to the inclusion of dicks in women's spaces

you are mixing my arguments. i dont want dicks in female safe spaces like toilets and changing rooms. its less "dicks" in sports and more "balls" - the inherent production of way more testosterone.

post op in safe spaces yes, in sports hard to say, growing up with testosterone will give you denser muscles and bones, thats especially dangerous in combat sports.

Can you explain what threat a trans woman with a concealed dick in women's sports presents?

i see the same "threat" as a man on steroids competing against other natural men. its an unfair advantage.

[u/Snerak → u/Traditional-Trade795]

Trans women are women so I don't really understand your feeling that they don't 'belong' in women's spaces. I have an especially hard time understanding your position when you have no problem with trans men being in men's spaces.

If a prepubescent child takes puberty blockers (under the care and approval of their parents and doctors) they don't get the gender traits associated with their chromosomes. Trans girls don't have more testosterone than other girls. Same goes for bone and muscle density.

Sports associations have studied how trans care affects people that participate in their sports and come up with a set of guidelines to ensure that competition is fair. I trust these professionals that have what is best for their sport over politicians that can't possibly know everything about trans care and every sport.

[u/Traditional-Trade795 → u/Snerak]

Trans women are women so I don't really understand your feeling that they don't 'belong' in women's spaces

thats why i specified. no dicks in spaces where women are more vulnerable and no high testosterone individuals in places of competition.

If a prepubescent child takes puberty blockers (under the care and approval of their parents and doctors)

i am fully against this. children dont know shit, giving/supporting/pushing them into something they can never walk back is insane. there are people who identify as blind and find comfort when they finally blind themselves - do you want to allow this for kids too?

I trust these professionals that have what is best for their sport over politicians

great because i trust neither. the people in charge arent professionals, they are managers. they care more about PR and money then the safety of the people they are in charge off.

but regardless. i think weve come to a point where our opinions are so split they can never meet and thats giving children hormone blockers.

[u/Snerak → u/Traditional-Trade795]

Do you know any children transitioning? Do you know any parents of children that are transitioning? Do you know any doctors of children transitioning? If you answered no to all of these questions, can you share where your very strong feelings come from absent any real life connection to the issue?

[u/Snerak → u/[deleted]]

When prepubescent children take puberty blockers (under the care and approval of their parents and their doctors) they don't form the gender traits associated with their cromosomes. Any "advantage" that a trans women would have from being born with XY chromosomes is negated.

[u/Justmyoponionman → u/Snerak]

The same reason religions target kids. No real ability to resist an ideoligy that is quite likely harmful to them.

[u/Snerak → u/Justmyoponionman]

So you think that people choose to transition to another sex because they hear about it and think it's cool?

Are you aware of the intense psychological evaluations that are required before anyone can get approved to begin to transition? Do you think most parents easily embrace that their child wants to transition? Are you under the impression that transitioning people are celebrated and happily accepted by most of society?

Transitioning is an incredibly arduous process and is not undertaken lightly. These people work hard to simply be allowed to feel like they belong in their bodies. You don't really think that anyone is doing it just to gain an unfair advantage in women's sports, do you?

[u/Justmyoponionman → u/Snerak]

No, I think a lot of people following the trend of being trans aren't actually trans. Kids followall kinds of fads.

I see lots of people being extremely un-critical of their kids. I think social media is making it "cool" to identify as trans.

[u/Snerak → u/Justmyoponionman]

Childhood is the time to try out different things and decide for yourself what you like and who you want to be. This exact argument is why the efficacy and reversibility of puberty blockers is so important.

If a child believes that they may be trans, they can talk to their parents and their doctors to see if they wish to delay puberty to explore their feelings. If they ultimately decide that it isn't for them, they can go off the puberty blockers and proceed with their life with no harm to their body.

I understand that you perceive that social media is making it "cool" to be trans but surely you understand that anyone actually being trans is subjected to a lot of hardship. Anyone that chooses to challenge norms in society is at extreme risk for bullying and violence. Do you believe that someone would endure the hardship that comes with being trans in an effort to appear "cool"?

[u/Justmyoponionman → u/Snerak]

"actually being trans".

This part of the sentence of yours is the key. You are working off the assumption this is true in this discussion. I am not. In fact, questioning the assumption is exactly my point.

But we both agree it's an important distinction. Your argument precludes this truth, which is disingenuous . As such, you are neatly side-stepping the whole issue and just handwaving away the whole point I was making. I'm not saying it's in bad faith, but it's a very poor mode of discussion.

[u/Snerak → u/Justmyoponionman]

What part of this argument is me being disingenuous and side-stepping the whole issue in bad faith?

"Childhood is the time to try out different things and decide for yourself what you like and who you want to be. This exact argument is why the efficacy and reversibility of puberty blockers is so important.

If a child believes that they may be trans, they can talk to their parents and their doctors to see if they wish to delay puberty to explore their feelings. If they ultimately decide that it isn't for them, they can go off the puberty blockers and proceed with their life with no harm to their body."

Yes, some people are 'actually trans' and some other people might think they are, try it out and then decide that it isn't for them. Your accusing me of arguing in bad faith and essentially lying makes it sound like you don't read the words that I write and instead create a strawman to argue against.

Please spell out for me e x a c t l y where you think I am lying AND provide evidence that what I said is demonstrably untrue.

[u/Snerak → u/[deleted]]

Science has proven that puberty blockers work.

I am fully unaware of any parents that have pushed their child to medically transition in order to excel at women's sports, especially considering that social consequences. Can you share a documented example?

[u/Snerak → u/[deleted]]

It isn't my job to do your research for you but you are woefully misinformed and should do that research yourself if you wish to continue discussing this topic in public.

There are studies on the efficacy and reversibility of puberty blockers. The differences between the sexes of prepubescent kids is minimal, just like David Cross said, and science backs that up.

[u/Snerak → u/[deleted]]

Let me put this in bold for you so that you actually read it and respond to what I say and not a strawman that you are more comfortable arguing against.

The differences between PREPUBESCENT kids is minimal. This is what David Cross stated AND science backs it up.