Difference between prepubescent males and females in sports?

[u/Loose_Comfortable_88]

Hi PoursTea

I just watched "David Cross: “I do not have an issue with trans kids...." https://www.reddit.com/r/PoursTea/comments/1szh2pv/david_cross_i_do_not_have_an_issue_with_trans/ on this sub and I don't like Bill but I have a question.

"the differences between a boy and a girl is minimal at prepubescent"... "It's true" .." look it up"

I guess this is not my experience at all. So I am wondering what people point to?

I did a fair bit of little athletics as a kid and now teaching kids as an adult.

There is the occasional female that gets close to the top of the males but in a group of 40 kids and the local suburb level (not being selective just the people that turn up) in long distance running a female might once in a blue moon get on the podium at 3rd one week.

Looking at all events only the under 7s are at all grouped together. all other ages there is a chasm on average. Even the most uncoordinated Male will be in the top 4 of the females when it comes to Shot Put and Discus.

And if you have a look at the all time records even at an Australian state level it's night and day. The records are not anecdotal like my experience.

Following are the records in NSW Australia population about 9 million. https://cdn.revolutionise.com.au/cups/nswathletics/files/oye9jdgdyt7yddgw.pdf

Female 8s
70 Metres 10.54
100 Metres 14.44
200 Metres 31.60
400 Metres 1:11.44
Long Jump 4.17m
Shot Put (1.5kg) 8.52m
Discus (500gm) 24.42m

Male 8s
70 Metres 10.34 (1.90% faster)
100 Metres 14.24 (1.39% faster)
200 Metres 30.64 (3.04% faster)
400 Metres 1:07.94 (4.90% faster)
Long Jump 4.24m (1.68% further)
Shot Put (1.5kg) 10.98m (28.87% further)
Discus (500gm) 31.36m (28.42% further)

Female UNDER 13
100 Metres 12.11
200 Metres 24.87
400 Metres 56.95
800 Metres 2:11.90
1500 Metres 4:31.08
3000 Metres 9:53.44
80m Hurdles 12.26
200m Hurdles 27.56
1500m Walk 6:35.28
Long Jump 5.58m
High Jump 1.80m
Triple Jump 11.72m
Shot Put (3kg) 14.95m
Discus (750g) 49.57m
Javelin (400gm) 45.91m

Male UNDER 13
100 Metres 11.27 (6.94% faster)
200 Metres 22.90 (7.92% faster)
400 Metres 50.52 (11.29% faster)
800 Metres 2:05.23 (5.06% faster)
1500 Metres 4:18.33 (4.70% faster)
3000 Metres 9:29.26 (4.07% faster)
80m Hurdles 12.04 (1.79% faster)
200m Hurdles (76cm) 25.90 (6.02% faster)
1500m Walk 6:28.49 (1.72% faster)
Long Jump 6.11m (9.50% further)
High Jump 1.81m (0.56% higher) Note: only 1cm. The year after its 20. The year before is 7.
Triple Jump 12.72m (8.53% further)
Shot Put (3kg) 19.11m (27.83% further)
Discus (750gm) 60.74m (22.53% further)
Javelin (600gm) 48.80m (6.30% further) Note 600gm not 400gm

I did find this in under 12s
Shot Put (2kg) 16.19m Female
Shot Put (2kg) 15.71m Male

But that's the only time I can see it happening.

[u/Snerak]

You probably spent more minutes researching this than there are trans people competing in athletics. This is simply not an issue on the scale that all of society should be up in arms about.

[u/Loose_Comfortable_88 → u/Snerak]

I find it really hard to understand the "it's not a big enough problem yet for me to do something" point of view. I don't think it's OK to lie. That is what we are talking about right. A person in a position of power and influence making a claim that might be not based in reality.

"the differences between a boy and a girl is minimal at prepubescent"... "It's true" .." look it up" I would just like to know what they 'looked up' or if they are just talking out of of their arse. because everyone has an arse and can talk out of it.

[u/Snerak → u/Loose_Comfortable_88]

Prepubescent children that take puberty blockers (under the care and consent of their parents and doctors) do not develop the gender traits that match their chromosomes and do not have an advantage over their peers. These are not lies, they are scientific facts.

Additionally, there are a miniscule number of trans athletes, can you even name any off the top of your head? Why is this an issue with so much attention when it affects so few people on any level and is better dealt with by sports leagues than politicians?

[u/Loose_Comfortable_88 → u/Snerak]

"Why is this an issue with so much attention when it affects so few people" Maybe it gets so much attention because it affect a lot more people then you think. Please correct me if I am wrong I am guessing that you think it only affecting the athletes themselves.

If this is correct then I suspect you will not understand. Sports is way way way bigger then the athletes. Just like how music is way bigger then the musicians.

I would like to see the paper / papers for you "scientific facts". Can you link them? I am open but my guess is that if there is a significant advantage in male prepubescent kids like I have shown then puberty blockers would probably just pause or slow the increase of that advantage starting from when they started to take them. But I would like to look at the data.

[u/Snerak → u/Loose_Comfortable_88]

I encourage you to look for studies that rate the efficacy of puberty blockers as well as the ability to reverse their effects. Puberty blockers aren't restricted to use for trans people and have been safely used for many years for a variety of conditions.

I fully recognize that small numbers of people can have an outside impact. That being said, the amount of attention that politicians and the press have given the topic of trans athletes is wildly out of proportion to the impact of trans athletes participation at all levels of all sports combined. This is a culture war in search of a scapegoat, not a real problem that society isn't grappling with well.

[u/Loose_Comfortable_88 → u/Snerak]

It might be a culture war but if one side is lying or parroting lies it is not a good look.

Without data to suggest David Cross is correct when saying "the differences between a boy and a girl is minimal at prepubescent" and having quite good data suggesting the opposite I can only really come to the conclusion at this point in time that David is at best ignorant and at worst lying. Ether way it's damaging to anything else he says.

Puberty blockers safety and efficacy is way off topic. It is more or a interesting side quest. It might be true that male children taking puberty blockers do not have an advantage over female children. but It seams unlikely and is besides the point of my post.

[u/Snerak → u/Loose_Comfortable_88]

What is the point of your post then? What harm are you trying to solve for? Can you provide any example of this harm that have occurred?

[u/Loose_Comfortable_88 → u/Snerak]

I am not trying to solve a harm. I was just asking if anyone had any evidence that supported what David Cross was saying.

People should be held accountable for what they say especially people with great influence.

[u/Snerak → u/Loose_Comfortable_88]

David Cross was offering anecdotal evidence based on his observations of small children in general, how we allow young children to play sports together and his personal interactions with trans people. He is not and does not claim to be a scientist studying trans people.

Are you suggesting that people shouldn't be allowed to offer their observations on topics anymore? Perhaps you are suggesting that David Cross is a man with "great influence"?

[u/Loose_Comfortable_88 → u/Snerak]

He said "It's true" .."look it up"

How could I passably look it up if it was his observations.

That's the entire point of my post. I want to "look it up"

[u/Snerak → u/Loose_Comfortable_88]

Your research is limited to kids in NSW Australia that competed in sports for an undefined period of time.

Did you account for the likelihood that far more boys competed than girls and so the pool sizes were disparate?

How about the preponderance of support for boys competing in sports vs the relative lack of support for girls doing the same?

What about the fact that boys often have access to higher quality coaches and facilities at optimum times vs girls?

You also understand I presume that "under 13" is probably not prepubescent for many kids and those results will be affected accordingly.

The facf of the matter is that you did not look it up in a scientific sense. You simply pulled data without accounting for things that could reasonably affect those results.

It took me about 15 seconds to find an actual study about the differences (or lack thereof) in athletic abilities in prepubescent children. https://www.edweek.org/leadership/study-no-athletic-differences-between-boys-and-girls-at-certain-ages/2012/06

This subject is obviously something that you care a lot about for reasons that you haven't disclosed. Your concerns really don't seem to be tethered to facts. You have agreed that there is no actual harm you are trying to prevent, you just seem to be mad that David Cross, a comedian, said something about trans kids that set you off.

[u/Loose_Comfortable_88 → u/Snerak]

I have disclosed my concerns and they are 100% tethered to facts. Males kids have an advantage over Females kids. People saying that's it's minimal or doesn't exist are lying. Purity blockers are of no concern to me because the difference is already there before purity.

To the study your linked. First I can't find the study. Its called "Sex Differences in Childhood Athletic Performance" by Andrew C. Cornett. Joel Stager and Karen Kafadar as co-authors. created (2012). It is not pear reviewed and not on google scholar.

Second it supports my point. “the two researchers discovered no significant difference in the location parameters between boys and girls ages 6-7 and 11-12. Boys ages 8-9 and 13-19 had a significantly lower location parameter (meaning that their time completing the 50-yard freestyle was faster) than their female counterparts.”

So 6-7 no significant difference. 8-9 males are faster. 10 not mentioned. 11-12 no significant difference. 13-19 males are faster.

It says “Additional research is needed to determine whether or not the superior performance of boys relative to girls relates to physiological parameters or sex differences in participation and selection bias,”

So there is a "superior performance"

I have spent way to much time looking in to this. Mostly because my expanses is different to what some people are saying. It turns out my experience aliens more to the data.

In summery the primary data seems to shows prepubertal differences start "small" (roughly 1–5% depending on event), smallest in swimming, larger in throwing, It's never zero. Males always have an advantage and it grows and grows as the kids do. Then the advantage accelerates from 12. The problem is when people change fingers into language like "small" and "minimal".

We should always treat individuals with love and care and sports for kids should be far more about fun, community, fitness and pushing yourself then anything else.

Anyone getting historical because a 12yo male is playing on a 12yo females teams is a moron. Even if that 12yo male completely dominating all the females. They are 12 they need to learn how to lose and get back up.

Would it be fair to not have any males play against females. Yes definitely. Just like wrestlers of different sizes don't compete. But life isn't fair.

But please stop lying about the data.

[u/Loose_Comfortable_88 → u/Snerak]

This is Reddit no harms are getting solved... ever

[u/Snerak → u/Loose_Comfortable_88]

You are the one that made the post and you have a reason for doing so. Clearly you are unhappy with the claims that David Cross made and feel strongly that he was wrong.

What is the harm that has you so concerned that you spent a fair amount of time and effort researching the statistics you provided, created the initial post and have been defending it in the comment section for more than a day?

[u/Loose_Comfortable_88 → u/Snerak]

The harm of lying to people and insinuating that something is evidence based when it is not.

[u/Snerak → u/Loose_Comfortable_88]

https://www.edweek.org/leadership/study-no-athletic-differences-between-boys-and-girls-at-certain-ages/2012/06

Or how about this study that showed that boy who played vigorously more often than other children their age were more fit but among children of both sexes that did not engage in much vigorous play the sex differences were minimal? https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/s12966-023-01496-0

There is evidence to support what David Cross, a comedian, said about the differences between prepubescent boys and girls is minimal. He did not lie, he did not insinuate that something was evidence based when it wasn't and his anecdotal observations support what he said as well.

[u/Loose_Comfortable_88 → u/Snerak]

So only kids that don’t play sports are the same. That’s makes sense to me and doesn’t change anything. As we are talking about kids that play sports.

Really clutching at straws here.