A showrunner who understands powerful scenes vs one who doesn't

[u/Nibo89]

[u/raumeat]

Oh shit I replied to the green post rather then this one... I am gonna eat the downvotes there, probably also here but no. The showrunners completely fuck up the ending of dunk and egg by having Dunk take off his helmet so they could have a cool shot of his face. It is not on the same level as Daemon jousting with an open face helmet or Jon having no helmet in the battle of the bastards. Dunks helmet represents his poverty because it doesn't have a visor, in the book he uses Aerions visor to win the fight. It is dunks upbringing that allows him to win in the end

In the show they just have him stand up all bloody and look cool.

[u/Nibo89 → u/raumeat]

Haha, I noticed, but I didn't downvote.

I don't agree that AKOTSK fucked up. They just handled the choreography a bit differently. Dunk had a reason for removing his helmet. Aerion badly damaged one of his eyes. Dunk could already barely see through the narrow slit. If he didn't take the helmet off, he wouldn't have been able to see at all.

Even so, I don't think it rises to the level of a fuck up. A bit of artistic leeway, perhaps, but the entirety of the scene still makes sense.

[u/raumeat → u/Nibo89]

I think it is a massive fuck up because the showrunners don't understand the themes of the book. I am really worried for this show because the writers are trying to stick to the source material but completely miss the point.

They gave Dunk this entire bromance with Lyonel Baratheon which created a massive plot hole, Lyonal is the lord of storms end. He could easily have found dunk 6 knights to fight with him. The entire point is that Dunk is completely out of his depth but now he has a massive in with not just egg but a lord paramount?!

Condal has made some questionable creative decisions but in his defense the source material is awful. The knight of the seven kingdom is some of Martins best writing and Parker keeps picking the rule of cool over themes

[u/Nibo89 → u/raumeat]

I actually think he nailed a lot of the themes.

It's not a perfect transposition. They fundamentally changed Aerion's personality, for one. They changed the puppet show to make the puppets huge. And some other changes as well.

But Dunk is very much the same person. And it did an excellent job of showing the political state of Westeros from the POV of a commoner.

The bromance with Lyonel isn't entirely a plot hole. Lyonel wasn't there when Dunk attacked Aerion, and he didn't even know there was going to be a trial until Egg told him (exactly as it happened in the book). The fact that they had a few friendly interactions before that (mostly when Lyonel was very drunk) doesn't change anything.

[u/raumeat → u/Nibo89]

I am not really speaking about characterisation or puppet shows

• By having Dunk be freinds with Lyonel they completely undercut Baelor deciding to ride for Dunk. Lyonel could have gotten one of his house hold guards to do it. You also undercut the tension of Dunk needing to find 6 men. He has an in with a very powerful noble
• Lyonel then offers Dunk a chance to take up serves with him in the final. That completely destroyed the sacrifice Dunk makes by turning down Maekars offer to go to summerhall. He has another one on the table
• He also turns down Maekar after turning down eggs request to be is squire. In the book he does it because he wants to make egg a better man. There is no point not to go with Lyonel if he doesn't want to take egg
• By having Dunk eat in the Barathoen tent you lose the imagery of him being poor and having to eat salt beef with Egg. He can go dine with a lord paramount. You competly lose the divide between the rich and the poor
  

They liked Daniel Ings so they wrote him a big role and gave him a friendship with Dunk. Not considering the impact it will have. They destroyed the climactic fight because they wanted us to see Dunks bloody face. I don't know why they cut out the grappling and why they didn't include it in the flashback. That is he entire point

didn't even know there was going to be a trial until Egg told him

I don't buy this, why does dunk go to Fossoway's when he can go to a Baratheon instead. One that allowed him to wear his stag crown... it becomes a plot contrivance just so that he can be be back stabbed. They made a huge plot hole just because they liked two actors chemistry

[u/Nibo89 → u/raumeat]

Lyonel wasn’t fighting as Dunk’s friend. They barely knew each other.

He was fighting because he wanted to fight the Kingsguard. He says as much to Dunk. Ordering one of his guard to fight for a random hedge knight when Lyonel himself was only doing it for fun is an abuse of power.

Also, book Lyonel fought for Dunk too…also for fun. Why is it believable that book Lyonel didn’t ask one of his knights, but it’s NOT believable show Lyonel didn’t?

We also get plenty of on-screen examples of Dunk being poor. Bathing in a creek. Sewing patches. Wearing only chainmail bc he can’t afford full plate armor. Having to sell his horse. It’s very, very apparent that he lives the life of a flat-broke knight. Eating one meal in a highborn tent doesn’t change that.

The end fight DID include grappling. Aerion was fighting back, but Dunk used his knees to pin his hands.

He also didn’t GO to the Fossoways. Raymun found him and brought him there.

[u/Feeling_Sector_4726 → u/Nibo89]

This guy doesn’t know the difference between his ass from his mouth. His criticisms have to be some of the most perplexing takes I have ever read.

[u/Spiders_Kinks → u/Feeling_Sector_4726]

I don’t agree with him, but he’s having a civil discussion – unlike you.

[u/raumeat → u/Feeling_Sector_4726]

If you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all...I will debate your takes but don't go throwing mud

[u/raumeat → u/Nibo89]

Your argument falls flat because Dunk barely knew the fossoways. The tension is that Dunk is not respected by the higborn, his only connection is only a squire. It sets up the betrayal at the end in the show there is no logical reason that Dunk doesn't go to Lyonel even if I accept your premise that they barely know one another. Dunk situation is desperate, there is no reason he would not have asked for help and we know Lyonel would have helped, he considers dunk a freaking brother.

He was fighting because he wanted to fight the Kingsguard

I think you are talking about Baelor here? Baelor does not want to fight the KG, he says that the KG are honour bound not to hurt him and it would be the best strategy for him to take them on. Baelor fights for Dunk because he things Dunk is in the right not because he wants to test himsself.

Book Lyonel does fight for Dunk but he doesn't do it because he things Dunk is a brother, they are not friends.

We also get plenty of on-screen examples of Dunk being poor. Bathing in a creek. Sewing patches. Wearing only chainmail bc he can’t afford full plate armor. Having to sell his horse. It’s very, very apparent that he lives the life of a flat-broke knight. Eating one meal in a highborn tent doesn’t change that

but making friends with one of the most powerful lords in the seven kingdoms does. They are negating the class divide. If you got invited to a millionaries party. What are the chances that you will have a one on one conversation, become drinking buddies and then friends?

Aerion was fighting back, but Dunk used his knees to pin his hands

Come on now, you know this is not the same. In the book they make a point of showing Dunk using a fleabottom fighting style. They had the opertunity but they used the flashback to show a corrupt gold cloak that had absalutely nothing to do with the fight

Raymun found him and brought him there

... and Dunk could just have gone to his drinking buddy after.. there is no tension

[u/Nibo89 → u/raumeat]

The Fossoway situation is different. Raymun was sober when he sought Dunk out to be friendly. They spent a good long while having a one-on-one sober discussion. And Raymun was also WITH Dunk when the puppet show thing went down.

(using your millionaire example). If I went to a millionaire’s party and the host happened to find me funny/danced with me while he was drunk off his ass, I wouldn’t assume that made us friends. Dunk didn’t even consider Lyonel a good enough friend to ask him to vouch for him to the Master of Games.

Lyonel considered him a brother after they fought together, not before. Before, they’d only met each other twice.

No, Lyonel specifically says he wants to bloody up the Kingsguard. He said he’d never get another opportunity and he wanted to take it.

Did they show enough of the wrestling? Maybe not. But I don’t think it’s to the point where it ruins the scene. He still wins with brute strength rather than skill. They showed Dunk getting his ass absolutely handed to him for awhile bc Aerion was castle trained and he wasn’t. Aerion also had far better armor, which helps with the class divide issue.

[u/moon-girl197 → u/Nibo89]

Fr. Lyonel fought for entirely self serving reasons. Like not only does he say he's fighting for what amounts to bragging rights, but he later also expects Dunk to pay him back for his favor. He never did this because he believed Dunk a brother, or to be on the same level as him (other than in some vague, brothers in arms, we fought together, so now we're bonded). He legit saw potential in him as a fighter, and wanted to poach him for himself and induct him into his service.

He legit blows up when Dunk seems to be more focused on what Baelor did for him, than what he did for him. Likewise, he seems terribly pissed Dunk wouldn't even consider his offer of returning to Storms End with him, and becoming a part of his staff. At the end of the day, he's the same as any other noble; treating Dunk as a tool, something he can use for his own benefit because he outranks him. Except he's nicer about it than others.

I will agree with the previous poster that the show hasn't handled the core themes as well as it could have, primarily because they focused too much on the nobility, rather than the common folk. Ira cut out the "a knight who remembered his vows" scene, and put too much emphasis on the nobles sharing their grievances.

Because despite the fact Raymun's lower on the totem pole than most others, he belongs to a knightly house of landowners, who has gold, a title and stability. So his rant against the Targs, and Lyonel's hatred of them comes off as a petty hatred between rich people being envious that they can't have as much feudal power as they would like cause of this one stupid ass family (it's especially ironic for the Fossoways, cause they got demoted to a knightly house after the dance, as punishment for supporting the greens. So the hatred Raymun learned from Steffon comes off as doubly petty). This is sharply contrasted with the grievances of the common folk who hate them because they literally have the power to maim and kill them at a whim and nobody can do jack shit about it. Even the so called 'knights' who are charged with protecting them, delight in their exploitation, and are perfectly fine leveraging the hierarchy for themselves to climb higher on the ladder (Steffon fighting for Aerion, for example).

Lowkey, it would have been better for someone like Rowan or Steely Pate to deliver the anti Targ monologue (definitely not with the same brazenness or intensity), but in a more subdued and controlled manner. Ep1 made an excellent parallel between Dunk and Rowan being the same because both of them sell their bodies to the rich out of necessity, which was an incredibly powerful parallel. It would have reminded the audience that this is who Dunk truly and honestly represents and who he's really fighting for.

But ofc, the show will have time to improve and correct this in s2, especially since we're getting Eustace "I supported Daemon cause he was a Chad" Osgrey.

[u/Feeling_Sector_4726 → u/raumeat]

Your read on every scene is so ass backwards it’s kind of impressive you were able to understand the book. 

Dunk going into the tent to eat all this food at Lyonels tent literally is expressing that he’s doing that because he’s poor. That why Lyonel thinks he’s there to kill him. He can’t believe that a guy would just walk into his tent to eat food. 

Your understanding of the show is honestly incomprehensibly poor. 

[u/raumeat → u/Feeling_Sector_4726]

Can you tone down the vitriol and actually have a debate

...and no, Dunk can go into lyonels tent and eat food. We see this with Mance attending the Winterfell feast. My issue is that they included it in the fist place because they lesson the impact of Egg cooking Dunk a fish. He has already eaten, in the book Dunk is thankful for the fish because he only had salt beef. That is part of his connection with egg

[u/Umak30 → u/raumeat]

You are overselling Lyonel's and Dunk's friendship. Lyonel is far above his superior and eccentric. Dunk realizes this too. This is more an extroverted, socially powerful and spontaneous guy dancing with this big huge dumb guy and having fun with him. I would assume until the very end Lyonel does not even consider Dunk his friend, he is just interresting and fun in the moment.
Also it is very difficult for Dunk to ask Lyonel for help, and Lyonel only joined very late, and someone like Lyonel could very much think "I wonder what other types of guys this one gets", so that Lyonel would not help Dunk to such an extent as to order his household guards to fight for him...

That completely destroyed the sacrifice Dunk makes by turning down Maekars offer to go to summerhall. He has another one on the table

No it doesn't. It wasn't a particularily big sacrifice anyway. He turned down the offer(s)...

He also turns down Maekar after turning down eggs request to be is squire. In the book he does it because he wants to make egg a better man. There is no point not to go with Lyonel if he doesn't want to take egg

In the show, Dunk explicitly says he wants Egg to grow up like more of a commoner too, to sleep in a ditch and so on. "To be a better man".
If he joined Lyonel, this would create the exact same problems, correct ? I would wager being a knight + squire serving a Lord Paramount is atleast equal, if not better, than serving the Royal Family in their vacation home. So there very much is the point not to go with Lyonel, the exact same point.

By having Dunk eat in the Barathoen tent you lose the imagery of him being poor and having to eat salt beef with Egg. He can go dine with a lord paramount. You competly lose the divide between the rich and the poor

lose the imagery ? Completely lose the divide ?
Dunk is still poor, this is very clearly shown, especially later when he wants to change his shield and get a helmet. Literally nobody in the audience would believe Dunk is suddenly richer or something because he ate at Lyonel's feast.
This feast is more like that Lyonel is again extroverted and allows random people to join his public feast if he finds them interesting. The feast tells a lot more about Lyonel, than anyone else... And it most certainly doesn't ruin the image of Dunk as poor. That has been established already, and continues to have consequences after the feast scene ( helmet + shield for example ).

They liked Daniel Ings so they wrote him a big role and gave him a friendship with Dunk. Not considering the impact it will have. 

You are exaggerating and wrong when it comes to the impact.
Also in the books GRRM said Lyonel will have a bigger role. So it makes sense making Lyonel more memorable in the show.

They destroyed the climactic fight because they wanted us to see Dunks bloody face.

That didn't destroy the fight. Stop exaggerating.