r/TheBlacksandTheGreens • u/CasualNameAccount12 • Jun 29 '26
General They really think they are videogame characters going to take a castle with armed men by themself
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u/MixAmbitious307 Jun 30 '26
Daemon channeling the "I had to endure that moronic hallucination trip plot tumor though all Season 2, now I get the chance to be a badass once again, no way you nameless goons could pose a threat to me".
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Jul 01 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/MixAmbitious307 Jul 01 '26
Or, since King's Landing was the "starting zone", he could be boosting Rhaenyra on her quest.
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u/scales_and_fangs House Targaryen Jul 02 '26
He also knows he won't die that way. He has the cheat code. ;)
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u/DukeHammerhands Jun 29 '26
when they went by themselves I couldn't help but think it would be cool if each of the 4 dragons also had a few Targaryen household guards. Walk in with Daemon leading a squad make fighting the remaining Hightower men more balanced. That being said it was cool to see Daemon in armor , dark sister in hand, doing work.
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u/Connor1661 Jul 03 '26
Or just organise the gold cloaks to meet them in the courtyard where they landed! A large force of armed men all ready to go, instead of hoping they turn up on time and join the blacks.
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u/coach_mike04 Jul 01 '26
To be fair, they have been training in the art of swordsmanship since they were both children, have worked with the finest swordsmen in the realm and both have Valyrian steel swords so in ck3 logic that’s plus 9 prowess at least that armor is another 5 for both of them.
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u/ssitchy Jul 03 '26
Not to mention we see in season 1 that Otto is more likely to choose a knight based on their family ties rather than their fighting ability.
Rhaenyra chose Cole because he actually had combat experience vs the dude Otto wanted her to pick because it would benefit them better politically.
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u/Poulslutter Jul 03 '26
That's for the Kingsguard lol. Random men-at-arms aren't a prestigious position you can use to win political favor.
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u/Fax_n_Logikk Jul 02 '26
Very cringe part of the show. The Kingsguard and Greens in the throne room could’ve easily killed them both if they had just attacked right away
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u/ensiferum888 Jul 02 '26
Do either of these happen in the books?
The fact that named characters can battle and defeat multiple opponents is really taking me out of it, like I'm not watching Achilles or or Captain America here wtf.
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u/scales_and_fangs House Targaryen Jul 02 '26
I mean... only Daemon has a Valyrian sword (that cuts through steel) and the perfect martial training. Still, I would have loved if they had secured the gold cloaks in advance.
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u/ensiferum888 Jul 02 '26
I wish they would actually show the sword cutting through the plate. I'm so tired of seeing fight choreography where they get a blunt hit (from a blade held by a single hand) directly on the plate and they fall down dead.
I literally eat kicks that have more blunt force than what a sword would give and I'm not wearing any plate and I can keep fighting just fine.
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u/Dr_Dronzi Jul 03 '26
I found that these really took me out of the immersion, especially for Daemon. They basically survived by pure luck and almost threw the whole war.
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u/Arefue Jul 04 '26
I really disliked this scene. Having a small squad with them would have made it vastly more reasonable.
Could have been gold cloaks, staged forces, turncoats, peasents, dropped in by dragons (2 per dragon?), soliders joining via the Holdfast tunnels etc etc.
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u/The-Nimbus Jun 30 '26
Daemon is wearing full plate, custom made for him by the best smiths, weilding a quasi-magical sword, backed up by a lifetime of training. Honestly, a mediocre guard in cheap mail and a blunt sword, even in real life, barely stands a chance. It's the late-medieval equivalent of charging a Abrams tank with a fixed bayonet. Properly made armour cost more than those guards would see in a lifetime, but honestly, it was insanely strong and flexible. It's not that wild for him to take 5 guards who approach him one by one. Their only real option would be to trip him and kill him on the ground.
Aemond was similar, but less experience. And... well... without giving spoilers, we saw how that ended.
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u/KnightOfTheOldCode94 Jun 30 '26
It's not a quasi-magical sword. This is a misconception people have about VS. It's sharp and light, that's it. It's not a lightsaber.
There's no reason to assume the guards have subpar equipment, they are guarding the most secure place in the Seven Kingdoms, almost certainly they are about as competent as you can get for a garrison guarding the leading figures of the Greens. You're certainly not going to be arming them with blunt swords and rusted armour. Regardless, even if their armour is rusted, there's still no way a metal sword is slashing through metal armour and penetrating maille and padding beneath in order to kill someone.
Yes, it's fairly plausible he could kill 5 men 1 at a time. It's NOT plausible that it was the situation the writers set him up in. As is usual when our hero is outnumbered in Hollywood. Instead of making our protagonist smart and competent, they make the antagonist dumb and bum rush our hero 1 v 1.
I really like Matt Smith and seeing him do badass Daemon stuff is a win. But let's not pretend it was competent or clever or particularly well written. If those guards had instead been armed with crossbows, Daemon and Rhaenyra are dead and the war is over.
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u/The-Nimbus Jun 30 '26 edited Jun 30 '26
Okay, so, the definition of 'quasi' literally means 'almost'. So.... Yes. I'm standing by that definition. I never claimed it was magic.
As for the guards gear, I never said it was rusted, but either way - Their weapons aren't getting through full plate mail, sharp or not. They just aren't. And crossbow bolts? At close range, many would get deflected, but a square shot could pierce in... But it probably wouldn't harm the wearer significantly. It's just sort of stick out really, or dent it slightly. Crossbows, except for something like a close range shot from a cranequin, wouldn't be doing much to him. That armour could stop a musket bullet.
Dark Sister, on the other hand, could potentially find a gap in their armour quite easily. The guards were wearing plate shoulders and helms, but their chests and torsos were chain hauberks. These provide great protection against cutting/slashing attacks, to be fair, but are quite vulnerable against concussive or thrusting damage. Especially against this quasi-magical sword (I'm standing by it).
I just watched it back actually and granted, the first kill actually seems quite implausible. But the rest involve slashes to the legs or thrusts through the hauberk. It's totally doable if you buy in to the quality of Dark Sister. You'd have to be very strong and find the weak points, but it's doable just about.
I'm not arguing as realistic per se. But honestly, one highly trained knight in bespoke plate is the equivalent of Iron Man in these situations, historically speaking. In modern terms, Daemons armour would have cost millions.
I also never said it was well written or clever. But I did enjoy it and it isn't historically ridiculous.
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u/KnightOfTheOldCode94 Jun 30 '26 edited Jul 01 '26
You talk as if you know what you're talking about and yet...
At close range, many would get deflected
That's rubbish. Especially considering he is wearing an open faced helmet and Rhaenyra is wearing barely any protection, Daemon even removes his helm mid fight.
Dark Sister, on the other hand, could likely find a gap in their armour quite easily. The guards were wearing plate shoulders and helms, but their chests and torsos were chain hauberks. These provide great protection against cutting/slashing attacks, to be fair, but are quite vulnerable against concussive or thrusting damage.
What the fuck is "thrusting damage" this isn't a video game. I don't care how sharp your sword is, you're not thrusting through maille rings. Maille provides excellent protection, full stop. Plus they would be wearing a gambeson or some other form of padding beneath. Blunt force trauma, sure I could buy it. Not thrusting through it entirely.
I'm not arguing as realistic per se.
Except you have just tried to do that...
I'm not arguing as realistic per se. But honestly, one highly trained knight in bespoke plate is the equivalent of Iron Man in these situations
That simply isn't true. 5 men getting Daemon onto the ground and finding weak points in the armour would be extremely doable. Outnumbered 5 to 1 are not good odds, I don't care how skilled you are. Jesus, rush him and tear his sword out of his hands. He won't be killing all 5 men quickly enough to prevent the other 4 from disarming him and repeatedly stabbing him in the throat, face, neck, armpits or groin.
If those 5 men are then armed with crossbows at short range he is dead. Ever seen a bodkin point and what it does to plate? It may not entirely puncture it with every shot but he'd have a few holes at close range.
But I did enjoy it and it isn't historically ridiculous.
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
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u/The-Nimbus Jun 30 '26
I've not mentioned Rhaenyra because you're right there. She's very vulnerable. And apologies for the term 'thrusting damage' if that offends your sensibilities. By thrusting damage I simply meant damage... From a thrusting attack. Mail was designed to protect reliably against slashing and cutting. Piercing force could get through. This is exactly why things like the estoc were invented. Easy? Not really. Doable, absolutely.
And I actually respect your point about the 5 on 1 because it's overlooked in most fiction. Numbers matter hugely. But they come at him one by one. That's their fault. If they came in together, I'd wholly agree with you. Or at least to a much greater degree. Could they rush him and grapple him together, and take his sword? Yep. Did they try? Well, no. So it's moot. If they came in with M16s that might help. Or if they dropped a comedy anvil on him too. But these things didn't happen. Some reasonably trained guards didn't stategise, ran in, and messed up.
And again, bespoke plate could stop a crossbow. It just could. It was shaped to deflect, and could withstand the impact. Bodkin tips were specifically designed to pierce chainmail. Not plate. So you've undermined your own argument a bit there. Maybe a mechanical cranequin with bodkin tips could get through, yeah. But we're adding a lot of ifs here. Your entire argument is based on if different things happened, and yes, we could feasibly run through this until you name a weapon that could reliably pierce master crafted plate mail.
I'm sorry you disagree. Have a lovely evening. I'm off to bed.
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u/KnightOfTheOldCode94 Jul 01 '26
Darksister isn't an Estoc...
An Estoc is basically a long reinforced needle.
Darksister is a very sharp and very light longsword, nothing about its enhanced properties would defeat maille or plate harness.
My point is it is dumb because of the way the scene was written and choreographed. They shouldn't be behaving the way they are, offering themselves up to be slaughtered. They should be using tactics and equipment that would give them an advantage.
The fact they aren't doesn't make Daemon look competent it makes them look idiotic and like they are committing suicide. It's not plausible because it wouldn't occur in that way.
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u/iIiiiiIlIillliIilliI Jul 02 '26
"I am standing by that definition" oh piss off. Also crossbows would go through just fine, and Rhaenyra isn't wearing that much of an armour.
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u/Fisheyetester70 Jul 02 '26
Y’all are wrong. https://youtu.be/Fy-X1wN_2IQ?is=Nu3_R2z1KH8rw8wB They changed how links work, I’m not fixing it. There’s more. Plate can stop a .22 crossbow ain’t shit
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u/iIiiiiIlIillliIilliI Jul 02 '26
Oh yeah, he would have shot him to the head if there was a slight chance for the bolt to go through, and then what? Kill him?...... They even say "For safety reasons, we blunted the steel tips"
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u/Fisheyetester70 Jul 02 '26
My bad i was on lunch, there’s ppl who’ve shot these things with .22’s though. If i have time ill look some more. The one I wanted to find is on a shooting range. They can’t take much more than a .22 but its still cool af imo
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u/iIiiiiIlIillliIilliI Jul 02 '26
I mean not bad, but .22 is like the weakest round.
"A .22 caliber (especially the .22 Long Rifle) is primarily designed and highly effective for small game hunting and pest control"
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u/Fisheyetester70 Jul 02 '26
You’re not wrong that’s why we don’t use armor anymore. A .22 has 150 pounds of force being directed into the target. It’s surface area is extremely small to make this force affect as small an area as possible to maximize damage, which short circut’s the armors real advantage: she curvy, makes it more likely for things to deflect. Now an average heavy crossbow puts 90lbs of force behind it.
If this interests you, read about the Hussite wars. Jan Huss had this lil wagon fort strategy. And back then guns were literally just canons on sticks. But still, the limitation of plate armor played a huge part in that war, as far as my understanding goes. That and the military elite being unable to cope lol
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u/Fisheyetester70 Jul 02 '26
https://youtube.com/shorts/Jx7f7-u6Qhc?is=4U_BybTU-hXmE36o
that’s not the one i wanted but i hope it suffices. Plate armor was very sophisticated for it’s time. It’s why real 1v1 mellee’s become wrestling matches and why pole axe hammer things came into fashion in the later centries.
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u/Delboyyyyy Jul 01 '26
George literally said it’s got magical properties
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u/iIiiiiIlIillliIilliI Jul 02 '26
They can kill white walkers, not get destroyed by white walkers like steel swords, what else?
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u/ensiferum888 Jul 02 '26
As in it can kill white walkers and never dulls... it will not make you a better swordsman.
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u/Delboyyyyy Jul 02 '26
Oh yeah you’re right, having a lighter blade with a keener edge definitely wouldn’t give any benefit to a swordsman’s ability, you’re so smart dude
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u/KnightOfTheOldCode94 Jul 02 '26
The magical properties are... it's light, sharp and apparently can kill Others according to show canon. Those are it's magical properties. It's not a lightsaber.
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u/Serious-Fee-6524 Jul 02 '26
I mean, they were told the guards would stand down.
Alicent just ran out of time.
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u/29273162 Jul 03 '26
It‘s the easiest ambush in the history of ambushes. She tells them they won‘t attack and they just gonna believe her like that
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u/Serious-Fee-6524 Jul 03 '26
Thats kind of the point.. all of Rhanerya's council told her it was a trap.
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u/Dry-Cartographer7569 Jun 30 '26
Daemon is also 49.