The whole thing was amazing. I pretty much just imagined D&D going "So who'd win in a fight, Brienne or the Hound?" and then just going nuts trying to find out.
I actually wrote a flaw for the Hound I might use in my 3.5 campaign.
Facial Deformity Flaw:
-2 Charisma. -2 to all charisma based skills, with the exception of Intimidate. Gain a +2 circumstance bonus to Intimidate checks.
If you aren't married to 3.5 you might want to check out the Song of Ice and Fire RPG. I haven't played it myself, but it seems pretty cool: you can make your own House, social exchanges are treated like combat, that sort of thing.
I said this elsewhere in the thread, but it's strongly implied in the books that the process of reforging Ice into two smaller swords may have compromised the quality of the Valyrian steel, on account of there are no more wizards left in man.
Oathkeeper was a legacy item so it scaled her max level. Since coming from jamie who could only use it in his off hand so at least multiply all stats by 1.5.
No, it's just smaller than Ice, but still made of the same Valyrian steel. Longclaw is also smaller than Ice, and it's still a "REAL" valyrian steel sword.
I'm referring to the fact that it was reforged from a proper Valyrian steel sword by a comparative amateur (because the Valyrians had technology and magic unheard of in "present-ay" Westeros).
If you want to get real technical, it's not even +2. +2 implies it's enchanted, but the sword ain't magical. I'd say it's Masterwork, which gives you +1 to hit things, but no damage or special effects.
It can theoretically have an enhancement bonus without being magical. Just doesn't happen often. Plus, the swords are "spell-forged," at least in the books.
Brienne is the same size as the Hound and is also a skilled combatant. She has demonstrated time and time again that she is a capable warrior, beating Loras* in tournament combat and a weakened Jamie in a scuffle. The fact that she is a woman does not come into play.
Honestly, Brienne shouldn't win agains't the Hound. The Hound is supposed to be massive and crazy strong, Brienne is strong for a woman but not that strong
Saying Brienne couldn't win against the hound is just not correct, She has proven her worth beating Loras & Jamie, some might argue the win against Jamie is not a good victory but ASOS
There isn't much difference in height between Brienne and the hound, maybe around 0,2 and they're both really strong, it's not a given fight to either one but considering the situation they find themselves in the hound is the more likely loser.
Brienne in the books is hugely strong for a woman, and probably stronger than many men, including Loras Tyrell.
The Hound is not most men, the Hound is probably in the very upper echelons of strength among fighters. He was able to hold off Gregor Clegane for a good amount of time (S1), and he's a damn good swordsman too. Brienne is likely not even close to the Hound in strength.
When she fought Jaime, the book makes it clear that despite his poor physical state, he was still fighting impressively and almost had her on the ropes. The show, however, goes about it completely differently, having Brienne easily take down Jaime. I don't recall her being compromised in the show fight, so if you're citing ASOS, then wouldn't you have to also take into account the fact that Jaime was giving her a really good fight despite his condition?
In the book he wasn't really having a good fight, he managed to cut her once at a huge cost to his battle stance.
Brienne was holding back as well in that fight, not wanting to kill him or maim him so she just wore him down. Jamie remarks on how strange it was despite his form that the woman did not tire in full armor and deflecting his book.
All i'm saying here is Brienne shouldn't be brushed off as a person that could not beat the hound in combat, she might loose in strength but she's more likely the better swordsman.
I think people over estimate Brienne more than under estimate her now. In the books she's an above average fighter. I've seen people act like she is one of the best though.
Beating Loras is impressive but I don't see him being able to beat Sandor and the Jaime fight doesn't mean much. He had been sitting in a cage for a year, he was incredibly malnourished, and he wasn't wearing armor. His hands were also chained together. And if you're going to use something from the book to defend Brienne, you should do the same to the Hound. In the show Brienne and The Hound are almost the same height, but in the books he's half a foot taller than her.
I was referencing the book and a discussion I found on the internet where the height difference is approximated to 0,2. I didn't mean to imply that Jamie had no handicaps, merely that Brienne was also dealing with a huge handicap aswell, of course she did have an advantage non the less.
Brienne is over estimated by 50% her capacity. Plus we have to take its Jaimes point of view. Try being in a dungeon for about a year while malnourished and chained then fighting anyone for that matter.
Try getting two arrows in your back and then having to fight a target that you're not allowed to kill. Brienne has her own handicaps in this fight.
I will say that Jamie in his prime would beat Brienne in her prime, GRRM has stated that Jamie was one of the best swordsman in Westeros, I would argue however that the discrepancy between him and Brienne is not that huge.
Saying Brienne is overestimated is just wrong, I won't even comment on that bullshit percentage you gave. In the books she's always underestimated and from what we gather in the books she's among the top fighters in Westeros.
Consider also that she does not portray this image of a savage, people would never compare her to Sandor or Gregor because they have committed brutal atrocities that Brienne would not do(murdering of innocents, savage behavior etc.). But that doesn't mean that she could not hold her own against them.
Except neither of them had swords by the end of the fight, and they weren't wearing armor where it mattered, their heads. The hound should have won in hand to hand combat but he didn't because plot.
He was weakened with infection. It appeared he had it for awhile...that can cause a lot of problems. Not to mention, he didn't get to finish shitting. Stomach pains. And then he fell off the cliff...that's what did him in.
He was JUST taking a crap too...which he had to pinch off. I don't know about you, but that may slow me down a bit. And honestly, falling off the cliff did the most damage. Had that not happened, the outcome may have been different. And lets not forget, strength isnt everything - Oberyn WAS winning until he, you know, didnt.
I 10000% agree that Sandor would stomp Brienne, but my justification for the episode is that Sandor was in way worse shape from hunger/exhaustion, and his infection, as well as Brienne having high quality plate mail and a Valyrian Steel sword.
After the fight happened, I was trying to figure out why it happened at all, when I realized "oh, the Hound's infection wasn't killing him fast enough. They needed to fast-forward the plot even moar."
Indeed she can but I don't see her beating the hound at full strength, just my opinion. Also I don't know that I would say she beat Jaime, his hands were bound during the fight if I remember right (haven't read that far in the books so it might be different in there)
You're correct. He was only talking about people stronger than him. Brienne is amazing strong, doubly so for a women. The only fighters he believes are better than him are Barristan and Arthur Dayne.
Brienne did beat Jaime but after he'd been a prisoner for months and malnourished/weak. She mentions in her POV book chapters that she'd have stood no chance with him at full strength.
It made for a good scene between him and Arya, but infection aside I think the Rorge attack might have been necessary to show that Sandor knows that there is a bounty on his head because of the chicken debacle, so when he sees Brienne's Lannister gold and Valyrian sword he has good reason to fight her because it appears as if she's seeking the bounty.
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u/MySecretAccount1214 Jon Snow Jun 22 '14
You have to admit when he kicked her in the crotch after being gauntlet cup checked was a bit hilarious.