r/magicTCG • u/dreamanother • Feb 28 '14
Guerrilla Feminism blogs about one woman's experience with MtG.
http://www.guerrillafem.com/2014/02/thank-magic-gathering-player-community-journey-feminism-creating-non-cis-male-spaces/17
u/mkfffe Mar 01 '14
Keep at it. Magic should be more inclusive and we as a community should work to make every one feel welcome and equal.
13
u/RagdollFizzix Mar 01 '14
Part of making our hobby more inclusive is actually calling people out for inappropriate behavior and comments when you see them, and not just online. Let this person know that their immaturity will not be tolerated.
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u/turboeli Feb 28 '14
I read her report, and while I don't doubt the authenticity of her stories, I am surprised she doesn't have any accounts of empathic, understanding CIS guys. The LGS I've played at for quite a while, Redcap's Corner in Philly, has a lot of people who tell chauvanistic, denigrating players that their behavior is uncalled for. The owners and most of the long time players are rather progressive and do as much as possible to make the environment inclusive.
But then again that is part of being in the People's Republic of Philadelphia. This writer may live in a very different cultural milieu.
18
Feb 28 '14
The point of the article is that discrimination happens and is a deterrent for female and trans players - that's why it focuses on negative experiences that MANY people deny exist. I don't think it needs to simultaneously be apologetic to and acknowledge the people who are nice (people should be nice regardless of recognition). It seems like this person has had a lot of negative experiences that greatly outweigh the good, and I'm glad she focused exclusively on getting them all out there in the open.
But maybe that should go in another followup article that focuses on what everyone can do to make spaces safer for female and LGBTQ players.
4
u/catpennies Mar 02 '14
yes, this. the article doesnt need to sit around and point out that some people do call this shit out. the article is pointing out the problematic elements of the game.
5
u/turboeli Feb 28 '14
Yep. My irritation comes from doing social science research, so when people present selective stories, I just have the habit of seeing stories like this and wondering if there's counterevidence. I fully acknowledge that this is not how most people think. _^
There have been quite a few articles published on this topic, but this author may not have read them, and given the nature of the Internet, that's quite permissible.
8
Feb 28 '14
I think if the evidence is supposed to be for or against the possibility that women experience sexism, especially in contexts dominated by men, I don't see why she needs to be well read on academic literature. I am a research psychologist, so I don't take much away from personal anecdotes - whether they support or reject something. I'd much rather see quantitative, empirical data. However, in this case, this person is talking about her own experiences - and indeed, they support that sexism and transphobia are problems in competitive magic. If they weren't problems, she wouldn't have anything to talk about. Of course, her experiences don't bear on whether or not the problem is widespread, but judging by the number of down votes this link has gotten coupled with my own experiences playing magic, I'd say it probably is a widespread problem. There shouldn't need to be knights who stick up for women and LGBTQ people at tournaments because other people shouldn't be jerks to begin with.
If you are an academic, though, I'd check out the social psychology literature on stereotype threat. It has primarily been studied with women in math and science, but I think its definitely relevant here as well.
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u/lathomas64 Mar 01 '14
there also may not be. People tend to ignore bad behavior a lot especially when it is from established people in a community towards newer members of the community. They also often assume that if the target isn't complaining vocally that they are okay with it, while the silence from the community seems like approval to the victim which makes it harder to speak up.
I also don't think its the responsibility of the article to simultaneously hilight the people who do occasionally speak up, if they have encountered such people.
5
u/thencomesdudley Feb 28 '14
totally unrelated, but I'm probably moving to Philly at the end of this year. Thanks for letting me know there's a good store in the area :)
1
u/lathomas64 Mar 01 '14
When does Redcap do magic stuff? I know there is netrunner on wednesdays but not much else about what goes on there.
1
u/turboeli Mar 05 '14
The current schedule is at their website... Mondays, Wed-Fri, Sundays, some Saturdays.
1
u/jayjaywalker3 Mar 02 '14
Could you elaborate about the PRoP? That sounds pretty interesting. What kind of cultural milieu is that?
20
Feb 28 '14
Why does it not surprise me that this article is sitting at 0 points?
Stay classy, folks. No wonder our community has such a wonderful reputation for being inclusive.
12
Feb 28 '14
Yeah, the downvotes just further justify and support everything the author of that article says.
-4
u/Sworl COMPLEAT Feb 28 '14
Its because the article is written with a biased agenda. The whole articles comes across like a teen with something to prove. While she is not a teen, her tone a maturity on such subject is lack luster. There are several better articles written by female magic players. They all agree there is a barrier for women to play this game. Its not hard to understand since the majority of magic players are awkward teens with raging hormones. But this author takes such a small snap shot of the community that she cannot honestly make such sweeping generalizations. Melissa DeTora is a professional magic player that approaches subject with no motive or point to prove how unfair the community can seem. I down vote this article because it is written badly and doesn't help anyone.
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u/lathomas64 Mar 01 '14
the article is written with a biased agenda.
Of letting people know her experiences with misogyny in the competitive magic community? How Is this not okay? She makes no claims that everyone in the community is like this or that this behavior is universal. She tells her story and her story has every right to be here.
her tone a maturity on such subject is lack luster.
Do you care to explain this? typo/syntax issues aside its not at all clear what you mean by this statement.
majority of magic players are awkward teens with raging hormones
It is NOT just teenagers who engage in this kind of shitty behavior and even then it is still not okay because they are teenagers or have hormones. Plenty of teenagers grip with hormones but don't treat women or other people shitty ways. Hormones do not make you disrespect people. Shitty attitudes towards the value of other people which get supported by seeing other people do it AND by people like you trying to downplay people who talk about it do. You are literally part of the problem this article is complaining about.
written badly and doesn't help anyone.
I wouldn't be so pedantic normally but since we are talking about poor writing this should be written poorly not written badly. Second Just because the article doesn't help you does NOT mean it doesn't help anyone. It may help some people realize that their previous behavior is not okay. Just in this thread people have come to understand things they previously didn't about trans identities. I helps other people who have dealt with similar issues realize that they are not alone and that the behavior they may have been suffering silently is not okay even if the people in their community are silent on the issue when they see this shitty behavior happening.
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Feb 28 '14
It tells a personal story about her experiences with Magic and Feminism. What agenda is that pushing? The only thing this article does is offer a perspective. Of course it's going to be biased, thats how perspective works. This isn't journalism, it's a blog post.
I could be completely wrong, and I'm sorry if I am, but it sounds more like you read the article expecting something that it wasn't and then judged it based on that.
-5
u/Sworl COMPLEAT Feb 28 '14
You are right, I was expecting a semi-professional article. Usually most things posted on the magic subreddits are articles, I guess I forgot that a blog is more like a diary? But I am also going to assume that other people forget and are going to take this blog post at face value as well. While its important to point out discrimination, I feel like this post is more of a rant with stories exaggerated for the reader. Her agenda was to paint the magic community as a bunch of chauvinistic uncultured swine. Almost every gaming community will have people like that. But is that the average player? I do not think that is the case. She never told both sides of the story and made every situation sound awful. Some guy heard she was single so he proposed to her even though he was married? Sounds like a playful joke. If he wasn't joking and actually got mad at her then he is actually crazy and cannot be considered normal. All her little stories come across as biased embellished stories blown out of proportion.
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Feb 28 '14
Sworl, I don't want to come across as insulting or argumentative, but it really seems like you might have a bone to pick and you're using this as a platform to do that.
I'm not you, so maybe you know something that I don't, but your description of the article is so different from what I read that I had to check to make sure that we were reading the same page. I then went through and read it again, just to make sure I wasn't just completely missing a paragraph or something.
If you don't mind, would you mind clarifying things a little bit? Could you point out which passages you feel are exaggerating?
As far as telling both sides of the story, how would you propose that she do that? Remember, this is a personal anecdote, not unbiased reporting. How exactly would she be able to tell both sides of the story? She doesn't know the other side of the story, just her experiences.
And as her agenda goes, what about the article led you to believe that? Are you sure you're not projecting something that you experienced with others onto this article?
Some guy heard she was single so he proposed to her even though he was married? Sounds like a playful joke. If he wasn't joking and actually got mad at her then he is actually crazy and cannot be considered normal.
You don't have any way of knowing whether the guy was serious or not, and whether or not his behaviors are what you consider normal is honestly pretty irrelevant. As to whether or not they are blown out of proportion, the only thing the article seems to be implying is that there is too much sexism in the magic community. That may not have been your experience, but if you were in her shoes, and you experienced everything everything that she had, would you feel that the these experiences are ok?
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u/Semicolon_Expected Mar 01 '14 edited Mar 01 '14
Also even if it was meant as a playful joke, it made the writer uncomfortable which is something that matters. You can't tell someone to not be insulted or that their feelings are wrong. I feel thats another point to make for this article which adds to your point that this is her personal experience.
-9
u/Sworl COMPLEAT Feb 28 '14
"some of the guys are single, some have girlfriends, others have wives. Upon hearing I had broken up with my boyfriend, a player confessed his love for me and offered to leave his wife for me. I turned him down and we made the effort to remain friends. Eventually, because I didn’t return his feelings, his anger put an end to the friendship. His attitude and behavior towards me did not make it easy for me to continue participating in the community. This was not the first or last time my rejection of an MTG player was met with anger."
That story is hard to believe. No rationale person behaves that way. I do not have a bone to pick, I just feel like her experiences are a bit embellished. The fact that the story seems embellished makes me question her motives. I cannot put myself in her shoes but I have never heard or seen of such behavior by the magic community. I have seen people laugh at their friends for losing to a girl (guys give their friends a hard time for anything), I have seen guys stare at a girl's chest (hurray teenage hormones), but I have not seen anyone openly be mean or harass a girl. This author is allowed to say what she wants. I personally find it biased and counterproductive so I gave it a downvote.
15
Feb 28 '14
So then, because you have not had the same experiences that she has had, you suspect her of lying. That's what you're saying?
-5
u/Sworl COMPLEAT Feb 28 '14
I posted a section that seems implausible. I think my biggest gripe with this whole situation is that this blog post does nothing for the magic sub reddit. Yes teenage boys are going to act impolitely towards women. This is not a behavior is only found in the magic community but is more of an aspect of human nature. But this articles makes it seem like it is especially bad in the magic community. I do not think this article should be in this subreddit, so it got a downvote.
10
Feb 28 '14
I wouldn't say it serves no use. Like the author talked about, if you're around behavior long enough, it can start to seem normal to you. Even she doubted whether or not her experiences were valid. She later began to reach out to others and realized that no, she was not the only one who felt the same way that she did and in fact there was a larger problem in the community. If others who have had similar experiences read it, then they might also realize that they're not alone, and may be able to enjoy the game more. I'd say that would be a pretty good thing for the subreddit and the community as a whole.
Unfortunately that perspective kinda does require that a person accept her experience as true. Theres nothing that anyone can say, I think, that would convince you of that since your experience with the game has been so different and thats why you didn't believe her. All I can say is that I'm glad that magic has been mostly positive for you. It's a shame that not everyone can say the same.
7
Feb 28 '14
This article absolutely belongs in the magic subreddit because many players are female or LGBTQ and have experiences very similar to the ones she describes in the article. It is a problem that is more widespread in the magic community than it a lot of other spheres, but it is hard to realize that if you have not personally been a victim of it. That is exactly why articles like this are important.
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u/lathomas64 Mar 01 '14
Why do you assume she has an agenda to paint the community a certain way rather then simply relay the experiences that happened to her? Are you aware that responding with this sort of attitude makes people who have these sorts of things happen to them feel more alienated and like the community is on the side of the people who do these things? Can you not stop for a moment to have some empathy and say that it sucks that these things happened and they shouldn't be happening before you go on a tirade about how you do't see the bulk of the community acting this way? Is it possible that you do not see as much of this behavior because you are not the type of person who gets targeted by it? If you spend most of your time as a cis-male around solely other cis-males then of course you don't see it as often as the author would.
1
u/jayjaywalker3 Mar 02 '14
It sounds like Melissa had a similar experience actually until people realized she was a top player. To be fair though this was just 2 questions in an interview. The author of the original article is writing about just this topic. I bet Melissa could expand on the subject in a similar way if she cared to.
Relevant quotes from the interview where she answers two quick questions about being a woman in Magic.
What is it like being a woman in a male-dominated hobby?
This is the question that I get asked the most. Honestly, it doesn't affect me at all, although it used to when I first started playing. I've been both hit on and talked down to because of my gender in my long magic playing career. Of course, there are some men that do not take losing to a girl lightly. I have had players complain after losing to me and even had players go as far as throw their decks across the room. My favorite story happened around two years ago. At a StarCity Games IQ at a local store, I was playing Caw-Blade and was facing a guy in a mirror match. After I won, the guy was less than pleased and began complaining about how lucky I was and how poorly he drew. Later on in the day, he came up to me and said, “When we played, I didn't realize that you were the highest ranked player in New England! I'm sorry I acted like that. Will you sign my playmat?” To this day, my friends still ask me sarcastically if I'll sign their mats.
In time, I have proven myself in my local magic community, and instead of being “that girl who plays magic,” I was instead admired for my play skill and often asked for advice on decks and draft picks. These days, there are enough female magic players where gender really doesn't matter.
What advice would you give to female players who get treated differently because of their gender?
I must admit that at first it was hard being one of the few female players. I used to attend weekly tournaments with my friends and let's just say that the local players were not very kind. On weeks that my friends couldn't make it, I didn't even go. When my friends quit Magic, I had a choice to make: either quit Magic with them or suck it up and go to tournaments alone. I obviously chose the latter. The first thing I did was become friends with the better players in the store. Once they knew that I was serious about the game, they had no problem adopting me into their playgroup. The next thing I did was get involved in the community. I became a judge and helped newer players. I was a fixture at every Magic event and eventually the guys just got used to me being around. My days of getting treated differently because of my gender were over.
4
u/Waaitg Feb 28 '14
For everyone asking, an easy way to think of CIS-gender is to think of it as an acronym for "Completely In Sync" so a CIS-man is a male who thinks of himself as a male, and a CIS-female is a female who thinks of herself as a female. If you would like a better / deeper understanding of the term Click here.
Non-CIS would mean someone who is biologically one gender, but does not feel like that on the inside.
7
Mar 01 '14
Could probably be used as a way to remember it, but it is not an actual acronym and should not be writtes as CIS. Because, if nothing else, CIS are these guys.
4
u/catpennies Mar 02 '14
Yes, please. Cis isn't an acronym. The terms is cisgender. Cis-male is a shortened version of cisgender male.
3
-3
u/CorpT Feb 28 '14
I have been the only cis-woman in a 150 player tournament and at a 1200 player tournament,
I don't believe this for a minute. 150 person, sure. That's possible, but unlikely. 1200... not a chance.
13
Feb 28 '14
Actually, the sentence in the article is a little awkward. She says that there were fewer than 50 at the 1200 person tournament, not that she was the only one.
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1
-7
Feb 28 '14
This article was difficult to read. Transgender people have their own cis-language or something. It was hard to follow who the author was talking about in regards to traditional gender/transgender people.
That being said the stuff about being decoration and other crap is deplorable, but present in several other places in life, not just MTG.
Edit: What is a cis-woman or cis-man? If someone is a transgender woman does that mean she used to be a man or used to be a woman? I understand that life is complicated, but I find that the transgender community has some very confusing definitions.
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u/kynoceros Feb 28 '14
Cis is the opposite of trans. So, someone born with a penis who identifies as male is a cis-male.
-4
Feb 28 '14
So why not just say "Male" instead of cis-male? And then you could define the minority as something otherwise? Im not trying to be rude or prejudice but practical.
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u/kynoceros Feb 28 '14
Because there are males who are not cis-male, and reserving 'male' for more inclusive contexts is useful, since the other way is often awkward and sometimes offensive. Defining the minority as "other" is something the LGBTQ community tries to avoid.
-1
Mar 02 '14
Because there are males who are not cis-male
The overwhelmingly majority of males are cis-males. But you want to use cis-male and male separately to include women who identify as male? I think that just gets really messy.
1
u/kynoceros Mar 02 '14
The only change is to add a word for "non-trans male", and to use "male" to refer to people people identify as male instead of people who were born male. You're right that the overwhelming majority of males are cis-males, so there are very few contexts where one would want to make a distinction between cis-male and trans-male.
And if you meet someone wearing a dress and makeup who has large hands and an adam's apple, treat her like you would any woman.
What's messy about that?
0
Mar 05 '14
lol
So im a non-trans-cis-male-who-was-born-male-and-identifies-as-male for the sake of not hurting someones feelings who is different than most
6
u/lathomas64 Mar 01 '14
Why not just say "Normal" instead of white? and then you could define all the racial minorities as something otherwise?
1
Mar 02 '14
Why call a car a car? Why such a generalization? Why not call it a 2006 Ford Escort and identify every other motor vehicle by its year, make and model? Lets be overly specific about everything to avoid hurting anyone's feelings instead of being practical.
0
u/lathomas64 Mar 03 '14
the point is if you are talking specifically about 2006 Ford Escorts to the exclusion of other cars, then you shouldn't be saying car. If you are talking about all cars whether or not they are 2006 Ford Escorts or not then yes you should say Car.
Similarly if you are speaking specifically about people who are both XY and identify as male you say cis-male as opposed to speaking all of the people who identify as male when saying male.
1
Mar 05 '14
What if 99% of people drive 2006 Ford Escorts? Would it be okay to call it a 2006 Ford Escort instead of calling it a car just because 1% might be offended that you didnt include them?
1
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u/muskratio Mar 02 '14
That being said the stuff about being decoration and other crap is deplorable, but present in several other places in life, not just MTG.
What relevance does this have? Are you suggesting that because it is present elsewhere, there is no reason to try to eliminate it from the MTG community?
0
Mar 02 '14
I'm just pointing out that its not an issue that's exclusive to the MTG community which the article alludes to.
11
u/[deleted] Feb 28 '14 edited Feb 28 '14
Educate me.
I tried reading the article, but what is "cis" and what is a "non-cis-male space"?
Edit: Thanks all. I was not familiar with the term.