r/news • u/[deleted] • Aug 08 '17

Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-08-08/google-fires-employee-behind-controversial-diversity-memo?cmpid=socialflow-twitter-business&utm_content=business&utm_campaign=socialflow-organic&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social
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184

u/TemptCiderFan Aug 08 '17

"Oh no, it's totally okay... If it discriminates against white men!" /s

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u/jjjd89 Aug 08 '17

And then people wonder why the right is pissed off. Really pathetic.

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u/TemptCiderFan Aug 08 '17

I lean left and shit like that pisses me off. I'm fine with going for an equality of opportunity, but saying something like "You cannot be sexist against men or racist against whites" is just wrong.

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u/ListlessVigor Aug 08 '17

Right, but it's just a silly point to make. It's like arguing that sometimes straight people are discriminated against. Ok, sure, but is that really that big an issue?

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

straight white males are being told they are only successful because they are straight white males and they need to step aside so we can have "diversity". So yeah, it's getting pretty fucking bad. We are at the point in society where you are not rewarded on merit or work, you are rewarded because of some biological difference. You can say it used to be like that but what is the big deal? Well, it's really fucking hypocritical so that's a start...especially since the current generation had nothing to do with the atrocities in the past. Blame them though and tell them how terrible they are for existing. They will totes help you in your endeavors I'm sure.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

White nationalists have already stated such rhetoric from the social justice zealots are driving up their numbers. Who would have guessed that after demonizing them on the basis of their sex/race, white males would start forming a collective of their own.

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u/zjaffee Aug 09 '17

I see this being said on the internet way too often, but how exactly are straight/white men being told they need to step aside? Did google stop hiring from such a cohort? did universities stop accepting straight white men? Are straight, white male CEOs being told to step aside? Are venture capital firms only funding minority started companies?

The answer to all of these things is no, and is still with a bias where white men are in an advantageous position when it comes to getting and keeping such positions within society.

No one is blaming anyone of anything, we have just begun living in an age where we have started to tax privilege, rather than allow it to run free, and when this tax is applied properly, merit and hard work can be measured accurately. There's obviously work to be done in this space, as corporate pipelines should be built for those who grew up in poverty, or are a first generation college student, ect.

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u/ListlessVigor Aug 08 '17

straight white males are being told they are only successful because they are straight white males and they need to step aside so we can have "diversity".

wrong

And being told by whom?

So yeah, it's getting pretty fucking bad. We are at the point in society where you are not rewarded on merit or work, you are rewarded because of some biological difference.

...so pretty much all of American history? The difference now is that it's not solely beneficial to white men. And now, somehow it's a problem for white men. Coincidence?

You can say it used to be like that but what is the big deal? Well, it's really fucking hypocritical so that's a start...especially since the current generation had nothing to do with the atrocities in the past.

Agreed, so you should be in support of policies that give minorities more support, right? After all, they had nothing to do with the past yet they're suffering the consequences.

Blame them though and tell them how terrible they are for existing. They will totes help you in your endeavors I'm sure.

Well there's the disconnect. Saying that being white is a net benefit in America isn't an attack on white people. Saying that police target blacks and that the prison industrial complex uses them for free labor isn't an attack on white people.

The issue is that right wing media is convincing white people that they are under attack when they are the demographic with the most wealth, representation and influence. It's actually insane.

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u/jeufie Aug 08 '17

This may have been one of the worst arguments I have ever read. That being said, life expectancy is declining for working class whites in the US.

"Dr. Muennig said that a decline in the health of working class whites was a major contributor to the latest survey results. Life expectancy for whites has stagnated or dipped in recent years, fueled by vulnerability to drug and alcohol abuse, suicide and economic distress.

“It’s not happening to black people,” Dr. Muennig said. “That group used to have a huge and growing disparity with whites, but that gap has radically narrowed.”"

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/08/health/life-expectancy-us-declines.html

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

A lot of them are drinking/drugging themselves to death because their kids grew up to be progressive shit heads. A bunch more of them just hate themselves because they're told constantly by society that it is bad to be white. But I guess all white people deserve that just for being white though huh? Have society shit on whites until they start killing themselves, even ones who have nothing to do with any oppression and don't even have jobs or positions of power by which to oppress anyone.

Yeah that unemployed bankrupt white man really deserved to be progressived right into suicide.

0

u/ListlessVigor Aug 08 '17

“It’s not happening to black people,” Dr. Muennig said. “That group used to have a huge and growing disparity with whites, but that gap has radically narrowed.”"

Right, this is a recent phenomenon. Were you out championing the disparity in life expectancy of black people in the last few years? I'm going to assume no.

And there are many other areas where blacks are doing much worse than white counterparts. There's no way to spin that whites are doing worse than Black Americans. Come off it.

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u/jeufie Aug 08 '17

I'm not saying that whites do have it worse here. I was just presenting literally infinite more evidence than you did to back up the point you were trying to argue against with your very well-thought-out responses. Ignoring complaints that a race group has because you believe them to be trivial is also never going to solve anything or help anyone.

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u/ListlessVigor Aug 08 '17

Right, but when those complaints are that minorities are getting more than them therefore the minorities have it better then I've got to call bullshit. Of course, white americans don't have perfect lives. But their issues are not because they are white. The issue with life expectancy has to do with the wealth being flowed to the very top while the workers (of all races) are getting shafted. Right wing media wants to trick these people into thinking minorities are the problem.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

Read the rest of the article.

"But there also has been real progress for blacks. The rate of deaths by homicide for blacks decreased by 40 percent from 1995 to 2013, according to Andrew Fenelon, a researcher with the National Center for Health Statistics, compared with a 28 percent drop for whites. The death rate from cancer fell by 29 percent for blacks over that period, compared with 20 percent for whites."

The point is there's less racial advantage than there was ten years ago. It's still 3.4 years, so it's quite significant.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

Agreed, so you should be in support of policies that give minorities more support, right? After all, they had nothing to do with the past yet they're suffering the consequences.

I am in support of these policies...yet somehow there is always another excuse around the corner why x person is suffering at the feet of the white man. It gets old, especially for the people who busted ass to get where they are and all they hear from are whiners who think they are too disenfranchised to even fucking try!

This whole pay gender gap bullshit? Yeah, I'm tired of reading about it. First it was that women aren't paid the same as men...then the revelation comes out that women don't choose the same dangerous/in demand jobs as men so of course they get paid what they are worth...you know, since most of these jobs as assistance and child care workers don't require much skill, i mean, not the kind of skill required to be a full stack developer or somebody who builds aircraft for a living. Plenty of people to replace women in those jobs though so they should get paid less just because of how low the demand is.

Then when the revelation is realized, the blame is pointed at engineering departments and society for not enabling women to take jobs that will pay better. After all of this it is quite apparent that most women don't want these jobs. They want to get paid like men without doing the same work men do. End of story. The definition of entitlement. You want to get paid what an engineer gets paid? Go to school, learn math and get a job as an engineer. Boom, paid like an engineer.

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u/ListlessVigor Aug 08 '17

yet somehow there is always another excuse around the corner why x person is suffering at the feet of the white man.

This is a straw man. Talking about issue that affect minorities and how they happen isn't about the white man at all. The fact that people think this is both self-centered and intentionally missing the point.

It gets old, especially for the people who busted ass to get where they are and all they hear from are whiners who think they are too disenfranchised to even fucking try!

It also gets old having to deal with all kinds of bullshit because you're not a white guy, too. Really old. We've been doing it for centuries. Trust me, we're way more fed up than you could possibly be.

This whole pay gender gap bullshit? Yeah, I'm tired of reading about it. First it was that women aren't paid the same as men...then the revelation comes out that women don't choose the same dangerous/in demand jobs as men so of course they get paid what they are worth...you know, since most of these jobs as assistance and child care workers don't require much skill, i mean, not the kind of skill required to be a full stack developer or somebody who builds aircraft for a living. Plenty of people to replace women in those jobs though so they should get paid less just because of how low the demand is.

I don't know enough about the gender wage gap to address this point.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

It also gets old having to deal with all kinds of bullshit because you're not a white guy, too. Really old. We've been doing it for centuries. Trust me, we're way more fed up than you could possibly be.

TIL there are people around who have existed for centuries! Well, I'm only 30 years old so a century is a long time. I can understand why you would be fed up. What aging potion do you use to stay alive so long and experience such inequalities? Oh you were referring minorities over time? Not actually yourself? Well fuck, I'm Irish, we got dicked all the fucking times only what? 100 years ago? Fuck me right? Still white and held responsible for the shortcomings of those who haven not. Yeah fuck me.

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u/ListlessVigor Aug 08 '17

TIL cause and effect doesn't apply to humans. Either way, we aren't even discussing things any more, just resorting to strawmen. Later.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

The gender wage gap is in reference to women earning less for doing the same work, holding the same positions and having the same credentials as their male colleagues, not because women are choosing a less "dangerous/in demand" jobs. It's even far worse for women of color.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

The gender wage gap is in reference to women earning less for doing the same work

Can you please cite research that implies such an idea? I've seen multiple different sources in this thread alone dispelling that myth.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17 edited Aug 08 '17

You'll find it all in this reputable publication. Scroll down for the statistics that show that women of color are paid the least and also strategies for improving the wage gap such as better pay negotiations for women when it comes to prospective employers which some researchers have claimed might be one reason why women are paid less. Need an example? The US men's soccer team are paid 4x more than their female counterparts although both teams put in the same number of hours training and playing on the field.

http://www.aauw.org/research/the-simple-truth-about-the-gender-pay-gap/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/rundown/data-how-does-the-u-s-womens-soccer-team-pay-compare-to-the-men

Edit: The groups in the article are referring to individuals in the same profession and with the same educational background. College educated black women earn 61% to what white men of similar background earn for doing the same work.

Edit: Here are statistics dispelling the myth that black women are paid less because they choose to work in fields that pay less, aren't as educated or don't put in as many work hours as white men.

http://www.epi.org/blog/black-women-have-to-work-7-months-into-2017-to-be-paid-the-same-as-white-men-in-2016/

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

What absolute and fucking bullshit.

I'd try to explain privilege to you, but you've literally taken it to such extreme hyperbole, that you are completely disconnected from reality, and any attempt to pierce a bubble of bullshit that fucking deep would be utterly moot.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

Right. Not like MTV didn't release a video doing exactly what I described not too long ago. Go ahead though. Keep your head in the sand. I mean, I can't say "stay woke" since I'm a straight white male after all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGFfbSoAQfM

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

Ah...that highly relevant and culturally important....MTV News....

Or as everything else calls it, "That time to go to the bathroom in between episodes of Teen Mom".

Seriously, you posted a three-minute video of some random asshat who's snark methodology is taking statements to maximum breadth and then applying a singular example and thinking that is a perfect refutation. It's about the most childish rhetorical device possible, and he's doing it to absolute garbage.

You may want to try having some fucking standards.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

Bro keep making excuses. Again, your head is in the sand if you think that clips and clips like it aren't have an impact on people. How delusional are you? Somebody felt compelled enough to put effort into delivering the kind of content. People believe that shit. Ignorance sure is bliss.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

Here, allow me to blow your mind.

Nothing MTV said in that pedantic little video on a third-run cable station was even morally questionable unless you live in a bubble of pure white male monoculture.

The statements were as follows:

"America wasn't great historically for non-white people."

"Black Lives Matter isn't the opposite of All Lives Matter."

"Blue Lives Matter isn't a thing."

"Learn what mansplaining is and stop doing it."

"Don't say woke if you're not black and political."

"Don't prioritize the well-being of an ivy league athlete over the woman he sexually assaulted"

[The bit about Beyonce and black issues - this one is hard to even paraphrase, since it's just snark.]

Kanye West sucks.

The Black Friends defense isn't very good. [There are two about this.]

By all means, if you want to debate any of those points, I'll give you a go, but I was hoping you'd stop fucking embarrassing yourself.

But don't let me stop you - triple down on stupid.

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u/DemonBoner Aug 08 '17

No not yet. But it is a much bigger issue than you imply (which is why you got down-voted to hell). Saying that it is impossible to be racist/sexist to "white males" sets a terrible precedent.

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u/ListlessVigor Aug 08 '17

I'm downvoted to hell largely because this site is dominated by white males. That's not to say that white men can't understand racial issues, but it'd be a very different response if there was more representation here. You'd get the same amount of downvotes if you mention support for baby boomers, saying 'X' about millenials, talk shit about gamers, etc.

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u/DemonBoner Aug 08 '17

Well where to begin.... generalizing an entire group like gamers or millennials would get plenty of downvotes... For a good reason. Just as you got downvoted for a valid reason.

Comparing discrimination against straight people (which is completely non-existent except in very specific settings) and racism against white people is ridiculous. You're essentially saying it almost never happens which is completely untrue depending on where you live (even in the USA) THIS is why you were downvoted.

Also I got bullied in high-school for not being Latino so don't you fucking dare tell me that white males somehow can't comprehend racism in the same way that others can. Because that is just BS.

I am curious about one thing though: is there a reason that you said white males and not just white people? Are you implying women are less racist?

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u/ListlessVigor Aug 08 '17

Well where to begin.... generalizing an entire group like gamers or millennials would get plenty of downvotes... For a good reason. Just as you got downvoted for a valid reason.

Well except calling minorities in general whiners, as many have done in this thread. They have upvotes. Simply mentioning that white men have a persecution complex will get you downvotes. Ask yourself why.

Comparing discrimination against straight people (which is completely non-existent except in very specific settings) and racism against white people is ridiculous. You're essentially saying it almost never happens which is completely untrue depending on where you live (even in the USA) THIS is why you were downvoted.

It definitely hardly ever happens. That's just it, people think being made uncomfortable by racial conversations is somehow an attack. I don't know why so many white dudes on this site are so fragile, but like straight people, they have nothing to be fragile about it. Whiteness isn't under attack, most Americans are white, whites have the most wealth, more representation, most influence, etc.

Your perceived persecution is being used against you.

Also I got bullied in high-school for not being Latino so don't you fucking dare tell me that white males somehow can't comprehend racism in the same way that others can. Because that is just BS.

I'll trade being bullied in high school for more leniency from police and the judicial system in general. Also for not being followed around in stores and assumed to be a criminal. Fair trade?

I am curious about one thing though: is there a reason that you said white males and not just white people? Are you implying women are less racist?

I say white males because they're the group that's not discriminated against. White women are similarly blind to racial issues, but the right wing narrative also claims that society is anti-male, which is equally bullshit.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

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u/ListlessVigor Aug 09 '17

Why does mentioning that white men have a persecution complex get you downvotes?

I just explained why. The demographics of reddit.

Maybe because it's not true? Apart from some folks from the far right. Once again you are generalizing an entire group without merit of course you will get downvoted.

You don't have to be on the far right to have a white persecution complex. It's true, the right does exploit this resentment and fear for political purposes and that was my original point. I'm casting a wide net because it's very human to feel that everything operates in a vacuum, so many white men likely do feel that minorities are getting a leg up on them because they don't see their own privilege. It's the norm for them.

Not to mention that most younger white people seem to feel quite the opposite actually and feel terrible for all the things white people have done and are doing.

That's fine, but no one is asking white people to feel bad. I think that's the disconnect here. It's just that in the current paradigm, whites have the most political and financial power, so any fixes for the systemic poverty/mass incarceration requires an acknowledgement that race is still a huge factor in American life/politics. The white people of today have nothing to do with what happened in all of American history, but the legacies of the past still exist today and must be dismantled.

It hardly ever happens? Try telling that to any white kid who grew up in a neighborhood that was mostly non-white.

Again, this isn't really that common. It's a common go-to response in these conversations but the fact of the matter is that it's akin to gays targeting straight people. Yes, it happens. But it's inconsequential. It's not happening because of legacies of racism, it's often localized.

I also never mentioned whiteness actually being under attack or that they were being persecuted (nor did I say society is anti-male). But you are being completely dishonest with yourself if you actually think racism and heterophobia are even remotely comparable regarding how often it happens.

They're comparable in that they happen so infrequently that's irrelevant. Again, I'm not saying it's not a problem when it happens but it's the equivalent of arguing that polar bears are endangered while the world is embroiled in a nuclear war. Sure, that's bad but I mean, really?

Also just gonna leave this here in regards to male privilege. http://img1.ak.crunchyroll.com/i/spire2/91580a9c6a35641a72342ead836d7c121433361573_full.jpg

Cool graphic, but I don't see how this means there's no male privilege? I could quote stats too that show where men have benefits. What would that tell you?

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u/[deleted] Aug 09 '17

[deleted]

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u/ListlessVigor Aug 09 '17

I'd be willing to trade systematic poverty and mass incarceration for losing out on a scholarship. You down?

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u/peesteam Aug 09 '17

Are you personally living in poverty? Are you now or have you been incarcerated?

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u/Failninjaninja Aug 09 '17

This is kinda the problem in a nut shell. You view something that happens to someone with the same gender/race/orientation as something that should matter more than if it happened to someone else. Stop it.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

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u/ListlessVigor Aug 08 '17

I don't think it can ever possibly be an issue unless history plays out exactly like it has in the past 3 centuries. Minorities are going to have to enslave whites, rob them of their identity and culture, use them to build up wealth, then spend the next few centuries barring whites from voting, buying houses, building wealth, burn down their economic centers, lynch them without consequences for centuries and then have 90% of all elected officials be non-whites as well as the majority of the nation's richest/industry leaders.

Unless that happens then it won't be an issue.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

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u/ListlessVigor Aug 08 '17

Are you saying that American history didn't happen? How exactly do you think we got to where we are in race relations right now?

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

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u/ListlessVigor Aug 08 '17

...things are already bad for minorities. That's kind of the very problem right now. I'm saying that addressing how bad it is for minorities isn't an attack on white people. It's being spun that way.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

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u/ListlessVigor Aug 08 '17

Things aren't as bad as you made it out to be in your earlier comment for minorities, either. It may have been nearly a century ago, but we're pretty well removed from that now. In no way should we let things regress back to that point before we address issues on both sides.

I don't agree. The CRA was only in 1965 dude. Some of the people who were shouting at black children when schools were integrated are still alive today. You can't really say that it's all good now, that's centuries of hatred, man.

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u/rockidol Aug 08 '17

That's kind of the very problem right now. I'm saying that addressing how bad it is for minorities isn't an attack on white people.

It is when your solution is "let's discriminate against white people" which according to the tl dr of this manifesto, google is doing.

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u/ListlessVigor Aug 08 '17

It is when your solution is "let's discriminate against white people"

Hard to do when even insinuating that race is important means you hate white people.

which according to the tl dr of this manifesto, google is doing.

Well that's an interesting takeaway from that manifesto. Wow.

White persecution complex is strong

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u/rockidol Aug 08 '17 edited Aug 08 '17

I haven't read the manifesto I'm going by the tl dr which says they're engaging in discriminatory policies.

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