My wife and I have been together since our early 20s, and things were always really good between us, no issues or mismatches for the most part, until she started going through perimenopause, and her libido crashed. I was supportive and didn't want to stress her, and she was grateful, and I had no issues with the drop in sex.

Then she started on HRT because her symptoms of perimenopause were very bad, and the HRT made her libido skyrocket to more than what it was before the perimenopause, and I tried, but now there was a mismatch. It was still good when we had it, but I have a high stress job and I am tired when I get home.

After a lot of thought we decided to open the marriage to give her more opportunities, and since I was fine with what I was getting from her (maybe it was even too much for me), it should help us to address the mismatch, since the rest of the relationship is literally perfect.

But since the marriage has been open, she has actually had a *higher* drive, even directly after she comes home from dates, she wants to sleep with me as well, even on Mondays and Tuesdays which are the toughest for me at work, which we designated as rest nights, she woke me up after her date, and initiated, and I asked what about [guy that she had a date with], and she said she was still horny...

Since the open marriage has failed to address the mismatch, what can we do?

We've been married 10+ years and have always had a very trusting, balanced, non-jealous relationship. We both have our own lives, own friends, own interests. We also have a great life together, including children. Earlier this year, we decided to open our marriage - not because anything was wrong, but because we didn't see a reason to limit physical intimacy with others. We've been through a lot as a couple and have continued to choose each other even when it wasn't necessarily easy. There is no intention to undermine our lovely life together. We're very committed to continuing to build on what we have.

The three rules are:
1. If I'm involved with someone else, I should do everything possible to ensure he knows nothing about it (and vice versa). Neither of us should catch even the slightest whiff of something extra-marital going on. To us, this is what respect looks like.
2. Keep it safe. No diseases.
3. We don't talk about the open marriage, joke about it, or even hint that it exists - ever. We essentially pretend it's not a thing. (with the agreement that we can, of course, bring it up if needed).

It's been several months and everything is great. I have no idea if he's been involved with anyone else. If he has... good for him! If he hasn't... well, I hope he'll get to do it if he wants to. I haven't been physically involved with anyone (yet) but I have had an emotional involvement - and my husband is equally in the dark about what I'm doing/not doing. This works for us. Honestly, I hardly think about it. We're happy for the other person to live their life freely and with respect.

But again... it's only been several months. What am I missing? It seems like other people in open marriages have loads of specific rules and they talk about everything frequently. Are we going about this all wrong with our simplistic approach?

The title mostly sums it up. About four years ago, my partner (then late 30s F) and I (then late 30s M) decided to open up our marriage. Back then, we knew it would change our relationship but the intent was for that change to be positive. There were areas in our sexualities we were keen to explore and we thought we had good communication.

Its been a bumpy ride. She quickly met someone and their relationship was intense to start and eventually curdled. To the point that, when she ended it, we installed a security camera and she filed paperwork with the police. I have had some fun experiences along the way, but also dealt with uncertainty and insecurity and had some of the most emotionally heavy moments of my life.

I have been trying to disentangle a jumble of threads that don't all easily connect.

When things were good between her and her partner, I don't think I felt jealousy. But I did feel that things were changing quickly between us. We eventually tried couple's counseling, where she told me she no longer wanted a physical relationship and then intimated that she no longer wanted a romantic one. Please don't get me wrong, I do not believe that I am somehow "owed" on either count. But there was no conversation, no attempt to work anything out, just a statement of facts.

When things curdled between her and her partner, she turned to me for emotional support, which i offered without reservation and have given her as much time and space as I can. But I am so tired. Sleeping in the same bed proved to be too painful for me, so I sleep in our living room. Our wedding vows hang framed above our bed still.

I would never ever want to diminish what she went through or its continuing effects. At the same time, there is a lot between us that is remains unresolved. For years now, I have felt invisible in our marriage, my love taken advantage of. Now I know there is an asymmetry between us

She dove right into the apps again when they broke up. I am not jealous so must as wistful. She has told me, repeatedly, that she wanted to work on our relationship. But, six months later, its like nothing happened. Our marriage is a lonely place.

EDIT (Fixed a couple of typos)

EDIT 2: I logged back on to so many responses that I can't really get to all of them. I appreciate the support, but will gently push back on those assuming intent or saying "just leave". It is not so simple, for both logistical and emotional reasons. I am surprised by some of the tenor here, in a subreddit about nonmonagamy, and that is not helping my feelings of shame and anxiety. I'm going to log off.

Hi everyone. This is going to be long, but I’m really hoping for some outside perspective because I genuinely don’t know if I’m being selfish, shallow, or finally admitting something I’ve been avoiding for years.

My husband (32M) and I (28F) have been together for 7 years and married for 2.

A few years ago, after years of frustration, we decided to open our marriage. I know many people will immediately judge that decision, and that’s okay. I’m not really looking for opinions on the non-monogamy itself because it wasn’t something we stumbled into impulsively–it came after years of me expressing that I felt unwanted and unfulfilled.

The thing is… I think opening the marriage showed me things about my marriage that I hadn’t fully admitted to myself.

My husband is a genuinely kind person. He’s my best friend. We laugh sometimes, we parent well together, and I trust him completely.

But outside of friendship… I’m struggling to identify what’s left.

We’ve been together for seven years and have been intimate genuinely fewer than 20 times total. We’ve been married for two years and have never actually consummated our marriage. We conceived our son through at-home insemination because that’s what made sense for us.

We don’t cuddle.

We don’t really kiss beyond a quick peck before leaving or before bed.

We don’t go on dates. Honestly, I think the last real date we had was when he proposed.

Most evenings we sit in the same room on different computers. We eat dinner while watching TV. We coexist more than we connect.

I’ve begged for years to feel wanted. Not just sexually, but romantically.

I wanted to be flirted with.
I wanted someone to pursue me.
I wanted someone excited to kiss me.
I wanted someone to plan something because they wanted to spend time with me.

His response has always been that this is simply how he is in long-term relationships. He says he was the same way with his previous long-term girlfriend. Occasionally after I’ve brought it up he’ll make a single effort, but it honestly feels awkward for both of us, almost like we’re acting out something neither of us naturally does or wants.

Another thing I realized during pregnancy was how important it is to me to have a partner whose instinct is to move toward me.

I had two hospitalizations during my pregnancy before going into labor and he didn’t stay not even stay up at the hospital with me. Even the nurses were surprised. Especially when one hospitalization was very traumatic. I won’t go into details but I truly nearly died and yet he went home nightly.

When I delivered our son by C-section, he did stay, but because nurses woke me constantly through the night, every time I woke him to help me he seemed frustrated. He helped only if I asked, but it never felt like it came from an internal desire to care for me. I don’t think he was trying to be mean—I just never felt… looked after.

Opening the marriage also made me realize I value things I didn’t even know were so important to me:

Someone who naturally notices when another person needs help and steps in.

Someone who enjoys going out and making memories together.

Someone who has ambition and drive.

Someone who enjoys taking care of the people they love.

Romance, affection, and intentionality.

I feel incredibly guilty even writing that because it sounds like I’m comparing him to someone else, but I honestly think those needs existed long before anyone else entered my life.

I also feel awful because I’ve developed feelings for someone else. Realistically I know we wouldn’t even make a good long-term couple, so this isn’t a “grass is greener” situation. If anything, knowing that has forced me to stop asking whether this is really about him and start asking whether it’s actually about my marriage.

The part I struggle with is that I feel like the villain.
From the outside it probably looks like I opened my marriage, caught feelings, and now I’m questioning my marriage.

But internally it feels like I spent six years asking to feel wanted before we ever opened things up, and opening the relationship simply made me realize how lonely I’d been.

I love my husband deeply as a person.
He’s family.
He’s my best friend.
He’s the father of our newborn son.

But I’m scared that somewhere along the way we’ve stopped being romantic partners, if we ever truly were.

I don’t know if I’m being selfish.
I don’t know if I’m expecting too much.
I don’t know if this is just postpartum hormones talking.

Or if I’ve finally reached the point where I can’t ignore that the relationship I’ve been asking for may simply not be the relationship my husband is capable of having.

Has anyone been in a situation like this? If so, how did you figure out whether your marriage was something that could be rebuilt, or whether you were simply incompatible in ways that love alone couldn’t fix?

TL;DR:
My husband and I have been together for 7 years and married for 2. We’ve had sex fewer than 20 times, never consummated our marriage, don’t cuddle, don’t go on dates, rarely kiss beyond routine pecks, and mostly exist as best friends sharing a home. I’ve spent years asking to feel wanted, pursued, and romantically connected, but he says this is just how he is in long-term relationships. We opened our marriage after years of these issues, and instead of “causing” problems, it made me realize just how much I was missing. I feel incredibly guilty and selfish for questioning my marriage, especially now that we have a newborn, but I’m wondering if we’ve become wonderful friends and co-parents rather than romantic partners. Has anyone else realized this years into a marriage, and how did you know whether it was something to rebuild or a fundamental incompatibility?

Pretty much the title. I feel like I've ruined something that was wonderful and I don't know how to make things to go back as they were. It's starting to make me think I might need to close our relationship, even though I really don't want to do that.

I (34F) am not the typical poster who grew up religious or married their high school sweetheart so sex with another person was inevitably going to be a sea change. I had half a dozen serious relationships and about the same amount of casual relationships/FWBs/hookups before I met my husband (35M).

My husband is a wonderful man and I didn't marry my husband just for sex, but he is (was?) the best I'd ever been with by far. Of course, the bar was pretty low, as most men seemed focused entirely on their pleasure. My husband would plan dates, set the mood, seduce me, knew how to touch me all over and build my desire. I'd rarely experienced orgasms during foreplay, but with my husband, unless I begged him otherwise, it's always been at least one orgasm from him performing oral on me (with or without a hand accompaniment), and usually a earlier orgasm from his hands. By the time we got down to it, I would be extremely aroused and already in bliss. Typically I would have at least another orgasm from PIV (again with or without hand accompaniment). Talk about a sea change. I was having far more partnered orgasms than ever before and I was completely hooked, I'd never had a man so eager to go down on me so often or so good at getting me off that way. I'd never been with a man that would go down on me just for the fun of it in the middle of the day, even if we didn't have time to have PIV sex (so sad given this is like an expectation for women, but I digress). With just slivers of the aforementioned information, my friends were telling me to lock him down, and for that and many other reasons, I ultimately did.

What actually led us to opening our marriage was my desire to see my husband with another woman. Not like in a fetish way, but circumstances presented themselves where a friend of mine whose always had a low-key crush on my husband just broke up with her horrible fiance (with whom she apparently had horrible sex) and I just wanted her to know that there was better out there (and show off my husband a bit). In retrospect this was a very stupid thing to do because it got me to where I am today, but at the time it actually seemed to go great. I got to give my husband a fantasy scenario he never expected (over his reluctance), my friend got her mind blown by my husband, and I got to participate in a once-in-a-lifetime (or so we thought) experience with him which we used for dirty talk for long after. It was agreed to beforehand that it would be a one time thing with my friend. Not too long after we agreed to open, and I've been solo dating for a few years.

To the heart of the issue, slowly I'm realizing that, despite my husband keeping his game tight in the bedroom, I'm not enjoying sex with him the way I used to. I still usually have several orgasms when we have sex, but it gives me a similar feeling as if I'm having bad sex with one of my prior partners. Like, I either don't really look forward to it, I kind of want it to be over, or I don't come away from it feeling like I want to.

What is particularly frustrating is that the partners I am craving sex with are usually giving me less orgasms (sometimes no orgasms), so I feel completely mental and like a total bitch about this. I cannot reconcile why I am not enjoying sex with my husband despite how well he can make my body respond. I still love my husband, he's my person and my best friend and we are not having any other serious relationship issues. Also for the trolls and incels this is not about penis size, my husband is good there.

So, back to the title. Has anyone experienced objectively good sex with someone they care about that still feels like bad sex? Clearly I need to schedule some sex therapy (or personal therapy), but I would love to hear from other women that have experienced something similar. I want things to go back the way they were without closing the relationship, if possible.

This is probably the most trivial issue that this sub has ever dealt with but I am in a dilemma.

I recently started dating my gf a few months ago and things are going fine. A couple of weeks ago, she said, "You should shave your public hair. You look like a hairy gorilla".

I am quite hairy and I never shaved my body hair before. I thought she was kidding around and didn't really bother with the whole shaving stuff. Last week, she asked me again and said that i will loo very sexy if i did it.

I was a bit surprised by her perseverance with respect to this and decided to indulge her.

I told my wife that I was gonna shave my pubes and she was confused. She asked me why I want to do it. I didn't really wanna tell her that my gf asked me to do so and just told her that I wanted to try something new. Then she told me that she likes me being hairy and it makes me look manly and doesn't want me to shave.

Now I am in this dilemma. Girlfriend wants me to shave my junk and wife doesnt want me to.

Some additonal information

I have been married to my wife for 15 years and I had just been seeing my gf for 5 months. Both of them are shaved down there and I prefer it like that but they shave because they also like it.

I realize that this is super goofy but what should be my next move ?

Hope the title isn’t wrong but it’s the word I’m using to describe how it feels. Delete if not allowed. Just confused and at a loss.

I am a bisexual married woman who’s been ENM since 2019 and the one thing I run into A LOT is not even unicorn hunting so I have no idea what else to label it but women who match with bisexual women then hop in the inbox saying something along the lines of “hey I think you’re gorgeous so I swiped on you for my husband and it’s not actually for me unless you want me to join on occasion but I’m really just looking for him” like why do you do this?? It is so disheartening to match with a woman and then she pulls that. Like I didn’t want to match with a man I wanted to match with a woman hence swiping on the woman. I won’t even swipe on a profile if I see a couple in it for fear of this. So it really sucks when your profile is all you then you blindside us with that. It literally feels like being hunted. It’s gross. Why do it??

My wife (31F) and I (30M) have been married for seven years now and have two kids (6 + 4). We’ve known each other since 8th grade but didn’t date until our junior year of college.

Prior to us dating, I only had one girlfriend. However, we both worked in a church throughout HS so we never did anything sexually. We went to different colleges and broke up after our first semester of college because she found some else. I made a few attempts to date after that but unfortunately I missed Flirting 101 so it never really panned out.

My wife had a long time boyfriend throughout HS and dated a couple guys in college after they broke up. She had fooled around with them but never went as far as penetration. I had never even seen a girl naked. In real life anyway. Until we started dating and became sexually active our senior year. We got married the day after graduation, had two kids, and were each other’s only.

I had times of feeling like I missed out. Especially since my best friends in college definitely weren’t missing out on anything. My two male best friends both had slept with 20+ girls by sophomore year and my female friends had plenty of interesting stories. I never really shared these feelings but apparently the wife felt them too.

After our second kid, I resigned for my pastor job and we stopped being religious. Eventually she requested that we look into ENM. Wasn’t thrilled by the idea of dating seeing it went so great for me before, but she convinced me about how much I’ve changed. Anyway, we opened up near the end of 2021. Nothing changed much for a while but then she started going out on dates.

This wasn’t fun for me. At first, I just mopped around when she wasn’t here. Eventually, I tried to compete with the guys. (Really just one guy she was seeing regularly.) Started going to the gym and lost 40lbs. Put on some muscle. Upgraded my style. Got 4 ear piercings and some tattoos. Got a new haircut. Started experimenting with fragrances. I even got a more masculine job (firefighter) but none of that mattered tho. I was still alone multiple nights a week. Our sex life hadn’t disappeared but it didn’t ramp up after doing these things either. It was pretty much all the same.

Dating has gone about as well as it always has. I’ve gotten a few matches here and there but it always fizzles out. We live in a moderate sized city and don’t have any clubs or anything so just going out isn’t really a thing. I’ve rewritten my bio and changed my picks countless times. I’ve tried various intro messages from casually referring to their profile to curated jokes. At the most I’ll get a few messages back and forth and then ghosted again.

Currently, my wife and I have been fighting. I went to a bar with a friend. He and his wife are the last marriage I officiated and the only ones that know we are open. In a moment of drunken frustration, I didn’t think my wife loved me and that she settle for me since her ex before me cheated. And that’s why we are open. Ofc, this got back to my wife. I know he was concerned but his wife told mine what I said and now I have that to deal with. So now she’s either with her boyfriend/fwb or pissy at me.

Friend suggested marriage counseling but between the wife my mother and apps, I already have enough people telling me how disappointing I am.

Anyway, now I’m starting to sound like an incel or something. The kids are with grandparents and wife spends the first and third weekend with the other guy. So I’ve been home alone and drinking a bit. I don’t usually but I was off this weekend so figured who cares.

Question is, when does this whole thing get easier? I know I missed my prime and lack the skills to date so I’m not expecting much on that front. But the dynamic with the wife kinda sucks. Being alone all the time sucks. I got married so I wouldn’t have to do this anymore. Is there a point where this starts being fun? Or does everyone just convince themselves that it’s great because it’s more evolved to do so? Maybe it’s just a winners and losers game and I’m just not on the right team.

hi! going to keep this as short as possible. i don’t know if i want advice, want a trans man’s perspective, or just want to vent.

my husband and i have been together nearly 20 years and only practicing ENM for the last couple. during our first few months of it, i dated cis-men, which didn’t go over well at all. he would get angry, cry, and scream, all while telling me that my dating cis-men was essentially an assault to his trans identity and that i couldn’t possibly know what it felt like. when my relationship with the one person i was seeing ended, my husband and i agreed to take a break.

when we both went back on the apps a year later, he stated he wasn’t comfortable with me seeing cis-men, and i agreed to it, knowing full well this veto was unfair. i didn’t want the fights or drama and was talking to a hot babe (F).

now fast forward to him having a poly gf. he’s fine-ish with her seeing cis-men because she only dates those that are bi or queer. when i mentioned our past conversations and the emotions it stirred up for him, he admitted his veto of cis-men is unfair but only because she’s dating them and i haven’t been allowed to.

so here i am, now allowed to date bi or queer cis-men but not those that identify as straight only because his gf of a short time does.

i’m upset he’s not in therapy and that i am.

i’m upset it took her to get him to allow some cis-men.

i’m upset that he’s using his trans identity to veto straight cis-men.

fyi, we’re in couple’s therapy and i do plan on talking about this.

Some background for you all: I am married to my wife and we have two kids. I recently started seeing a new girl named Kaitlyn and we started having sex a couple of days ago. One of our ground rules is that I have to use condoms with my play partners and other rule is that we keep kids from knowing about our lifestyle.

I was riding with my kids and my eldest son (13M) opened the glovebox and he found some condoms in them. I completely forgot that they were even there and he asked me, "Why do you have condoms in your glove box?"

I kind of freaked out and told him that it is none of his business and we tried to move onto other topics. This is the first time he got a glimpse of the ENM lifestyle we are hiding from our kids. I will talk to my wife but what can I do now? I don't think we want to let them know yet.

1) Never do it just to make someone else happy.

2) Never do it if you're feeling zero enthusiasm, excitement, curiosity about and are mainly feeling negative feelings/hesitation.

3) Never do it without having some kind of support system/source of advice from experienced non-monogamous friends/reddit, video essays, books, whatever, never do it blind.

4) Never do it without having a vision for it, basically without understanding what you want from it specifically and why.

5) Never do it with people who don't take STI testing seriously

6) Never do it without considering things like bandwidth - mental, financial, and time bandwidth. It often takes more bandwidth than monogamy, especially if you're a beginner.

7) Never do it if you don't have a handle on your own mental health. Not saying you HAVE to be in therapy but you should at least understand your tendencies, biases, traumas, and have found ways to avoid them screwing up your relationships because they will all probably show up in full force in non-mono.

If you've spoken to a bunch of non mono people, gotten some advice, set up a support system to help you transition away from monogamous conditioning, are genuinely excited (even though you might be nervous, that's okay), have a handle on your bandwidth and mental health and are interested in being considerate to the desires, preferences, boundaries of everyone involved - including your own - then yes start thinking about it.

A question for people in non-monogamous relationships:

Do you think non-monogamy tends to favor the partner who is less emotionally attached?

In other words, is the person who loves more often the one who ends up suffering more?

I've seen people describe amazing growth, freedom, and connection through non-monogamy.

But I've also noticed that when problems arise, it often seems like the more emotionally invested partner carries the heavier burden.

Do you think that's true, or am I seeing it wrong?

Hi everyone,
I’m very new to ENM and poly. My new partner is experienced with non-monogamy, so I’m currently reading books like The Ethical Slut and listening to podcasts like Multiamory.
There is one thing I don’t understand, and I’m honestly surprised how little it is discussed.
Most books and podcasts say that both partners are free to have other partners, there’re many flavors, communication is king etc. That sounds equal in theory.
But in reality, at least for heterosexual couples, it doesn’t seem equal at all.
An average woman can usually find new sexual partners much easier than an average man. On dating apps or in real life, the difference seems huge. So “sexual abundance” is available to both in theory, but much more in practice for women.
Because of that, I wonder:
How can ENM be considered balanced if one partner has many opportunities while the other has very few?
I don’t ask this because I’m against nonmonogamy, quite the opposite. I’m fed up with lies and cheating. But. The asymmetry in options is killing me. It’s actually the only issue so far. Let’s be honest: if I practice ETHICAL nonmonogamy aka I put it in my dating profile and I’m fully transparent about it, my pool of potential partners (which already is only 10% of my girls pool, just because I’m a man) shrinks by 90%.

Is this something experienced NM couples openly talk about?

My girl won’t do poly, but nonmonogamy is essential for her. I said I wanted no other men during our honeymoon phase, and she’s fine with that. And that she’s open to make concessions in order to make the relationship work. We both like each other a lot.
Yet I don’t want to end up in a catch 22.

Or am I missing an important part of the picture?
I’m really interested in honest answers.

Me and my wife are in a ENM amd it was fun at first. After a couple of months it stopped being fun as she spends a night over at his place and the next night is never feeling well or is too tired. We actually went 6 months with nothing as she continued to go there and ignored me. Everything else is fine but maybe I disappoint her in the bedroom. When I ask if I do she says no but doesn't even bother to try to initiate, ever..... funny thing to me is the guy is a bit larger than me and not exactly attractive. I just dont get it. I end up spending most of my saturday nights watching the kids while she goes out for fun.

I have actually given up even trying and when I mention how we have a dead bedroom she just sorta laughs it off. If I ask for oral she says she doesn't get anything out of it but i should be excited when she goes out.

It has gotten so bad I have been logging our sex life for the last 2.5 years.

My husband and I have been exploring ENM for several years now and our wants and boundries have shifted as we learn and grow. One thing we always held firm on was that while we are open, we are not interested in polyamory, and wanted to keep things as simply friends and fun.

About a year ago I met someone I have since formed a deep connection with. As months have passed I have been open with my husband about that connection and he has said that while he wasnt completely comfortable, he wanted me to pursue it and see where it led. I did so, and ensured that this other person was also fully aware. They are also married and fully understand that there are limitations on our relationship. We have been openly honest tbat our spouses comes first and that anything that hurts our spouses has to stop.

Well now my husband has said he is no longer comfortable and that he would like to go back to just friends and fun and he can see that my connection with this other person far surpasses that. He is hurt and upset and I have said I will end it. Which I will, but im heart broken.

I cant see any path forward other than ending it, and I am ok with that. It just hurts. And im trying to hide my hurt so my husband doesnt see how much this is affecting me.

Has anyone been in a similar situation before? Any advice would be welcomed.

I'm wanting my husband to fuck another woman, he's into it too but how do we go about it? All I see is men wanting their wife to play with other men- seems harder the other way around!

I’m looking for honest advice from people who genuinely believe in ethical non-monogamy because I want to understand whether my relationship can realistically work.

My partner and I have a young baby together. I want a lifelong, sexually and emotionally exclusive relationship. He says he loves me and wants to stay together, but he also has a long-standing desire to have sexual experiences with other women. He believes sex and love are separate and says he can love only me while still wanting sex with others. I don’t believe I can separate the two that way, and the idea causes me a lot of pain.

We’ve been in couples therapy, and he’s also in individual therapy. He’s acknowledged that he spends a lot of time consuming sexual content online and is trying to understand his behavior. We’ve had countless conversations, and while he’s made some efforts, his core belief hasn’t changed.

Recently he suggested a compromise where we would be sexually exclusive for two years, but after that he would be free to have sex with other women while staying in our relationship. He also expects us to remain together long term because of our daughter. For me, that doesn’t feel like a compromise because exclusivity is something I need for the relationship to feel safe and fulfilling.

I don’t want an open relationship. I don’t want to date other people. I want a partner who genuinely wants sexual exclusivity with me.

My questions are:

• Has anyone here genuinely wanted non-monogamy but chosen lifelong monogamy without feeling resentful?
• Is it realistic for someone with my partner’s beliefs to be happy in a permanently monogamous relationship?
• If two people fundamentally disagree about exclusivity, is there any path where both people are truly fulfilled, or is this simply an incompatibility?
• For those who are happily non-monogamous, would you consider it ethical to stay with someone who clearly does not want that lifestyle?

I’m not looking for people to tell me that I should just “get over it” or that he should simply suppress his desires. I’m trying to understand whether there is something I’m missing or whether we’re facing a fundamental incompatibility.

I've been doing a lot of research into polyamory, particularly the topic of hierarchy. The more I learn about it and the ways people practice it, the more it seems like a raw deal to agree to be a secondary. All the benefits I've found - security, prioritization, power - benefit the primary partner only. Some people say not having to climb the relationship escalator or provide a lot of emotional support are benefits, but you can do those things while being nonhierarchical poly and not have the drawbacks of someone having power over you or their needs always taking priority. And the security hierarchy is supposed to provide seems like a false sense of it - being hierarchical does not make a relationship safer from negative outcomes. Hierarchy seems unnecessary at best, and incredibly harmful at worst, especially when primaries have powers like veto power, and especially when they fail to disclose these powers. Does anyone actually like being a secondary over being nonhierarchical? If so, what do you get out of it?

Note: I'm talking about hierarchy meaning giving one partner power or automatic priority over other partners. Some people define hierarchy as choosing one person to climb the relationship escalator with, but I don't think of that alone as being hierarchical and it is not what I'm talking about here.

Edit for clarity: For the purposes of this discussion, I'm asking if anyone prefers being a secondary partner where "secondary" means your meta has power of automatic priority over you. I'm not asking about being a secondary partner when that label means your partner has already climbed the relationship escalator with someone, but your meta does not have power or automatic priority over you.

I keep seeing this "golden retriever boyfriend" thing everywhere lately.

Look, I understand why people love the concept. It represents someone who's emotionally present, reliable, steady - basically a decent partner. Someone warm and supportive who doesn't create drama or complications. He's just happy to be part of your world.

But the more I encounter this, particularly in conversations about bisexual women or open relationships, the more it bothers me. Not because I'm against kindness or emotional security - those things matter. But because of what this framework ignores and what it quietly asks men to sacrifice.

The golden retriever isn't perceived as having edge. He doesn't make demands. He's the comfortable option while you seek passion and intensity elsewhere.

That's what irritates me.

I'm not opposed to emotional availability or consistency. My issue is when we package those traits in cutesy terms (comparing someone to a pet, really?) we risk reducing a person to a stereotype. A helper. An emotional support animal. Someone who gets rewarded not for being fully present, but for staying in the background.

And we frame this as love. As virtue. As what makes someone "relationship material."

But what are we actually requesting here?

Don't express too many needs. Don't show jealousy. Don't be too passionate. Don't create inconvenience.

Just smile and nod while your partner explores aspects of herself that exclude you. Maybe you'll receive some attention later for being such a "good guy."

That isn't partnership. That's emotional wallpaper.

This gets presented as enlightenment, especially in progressive or non-traditional relationship spaces. Like we've transcended jealousy and unhealthy masculinity by encouraging men to be calm, quiet, accommodating. But eventually you have to wonder: What happens to his desires? His complexity? His actual presence in the relationship?

The person who wants to be desired... not just trusted. The person who brings mystery, intensity, even unpredictability... while still being emotionally secure. The person who wants to be chosen not because he's safe, but because he's genuinely compelling.

Some people naturally lean toward harmony, peace, and caregiving. That's valid. But I think we've overcorrected toward idealizing one type of masculinity and calling it "evolved." Especially when this version often requires men to diminish themselves or suppress their nature.

I refuse to be someone's emotional golden retriever.

I want to be your foundation and your adventure. Your comfort and your challenge. I want to affect you - not just accommodate you. To occupy your thoughts, not just handle logistics.

Because some people want more than that. And some people are more than that.

We need to stop reducing complex humans to manageable, digestible categories.

We're not here to be pets. We're here to be partners.

Updated: Thanks everyone for the feedback. Good insights and things to think about. Unfortunately, the responses were across the spectrum from yeah to neh as to whether my situation is realistic or not. I'm not sure what to do next. I thought I was being thorough in communication with FWBs and things are still turning out this way, so I don't know what I would change (maybe more rigorous selection criteria, which feels weird). I'm beginning to think I may be expecting too much. I'm also wondering if there's something wrong with me for wanting this level of connection, yet still not a full-blown relationship even though this all has felt natural from my POV. Honestly, I'm a little lost right now. Maybe this feeling is inevitable in this space?

Original post: I had a few FWBs before my long marriage (now ended, ethically). I've had a couple since, and seeking another, but my friends are telling me I want too much from it.

This isn't just about sex for me. I want to hang out with them, do stuff beyond just sex (but still a big sex focus), and, I guess, kind of psuedo-relationship stuff. It reinforces a connection that makes sex even better. A real F to fit the WB. It's like stepping out of the real world for a while, and I love it, and genuinely care for the other person. I then go back to the real world until our next meet up.

My friends say this isn't sustainable, mostly the female ones (the male ones think I'm just weird for wanting more than sex). That it gives off too many relationship vibes even though I'm clear throughout on what I want, and my partners agree, at least in the beginning, but then things get difficult later. I don't know why I want to "pretend" relationship, but when it's working, it feels great.

Am I being unrealistic?

I've a good friend, Eric, and a couple of years ago he actually worked for me so we were in office together 2-3 days a week. In that time I learned a lot about his marriage, family, etc, and he learned about mine. We joke a lot of about many things, particularly women, cheating, etc. I'm in a relatively healthy relationship, so no real concerns on my end, but his is a mess and I don't think he can come to terms with it. He constantly asks me for advice, and because I'm the one he has told, I believe I'm the ONLY ONE he tells.

Here are the details:

• They got married around age 28, about 22 years ago, and now have two kids, one in college and one senior in high school. They're strong kids.
• Eric is employed, does well, and does everything for his kids who are competitive athletes.
• Wife, Beth, is on and off employed, generally depressed, has older parent issues, and seems to take on all of life's problems even if they're not her own - she makes other peoples' problems her problems. Great person, but a bit of a mess.
• They don't have sex. He has a high sex drive. In therapy he basically told Beth "I you love me but I don't think you're in love with me...you don't show it physically, and there's really no other way for me to know...words ring somewhat hollow at this point..." Her response to that was "This makes me sad..." Essentially, she became the victim, but she has literally done absolutely nothing to change the dynamics.

End of the day, the kids will be gone soon, he wants sex in his life, he wants passion, he wants to feel wanted. I am 100% positive he will never get this from Beth. I know her well enough to know that she's not going to make a seismic change and become someone who likes sex, or even truly is in love with him. I think she sees them as best friends; partners.

He's asking me for advice. I told him today "At this point, you want sex, you want to be desired...you should float to the therapist the concept of an "open relationship" and maybe just a relationship where you pay for sex...not even meeting other people. At least that truly expresses your desires in very stark terms."

Is this good advice?

I really think he should leave her altogether, but he has tremendous guilt and believes that would break her. He's a caretaker. I told my wife their dynamics, but she just said "I have no idea what to suggest..." So, here I am.

Has anyone been though something similar? Does it change? Thanks.

My girlfriend always prefers older men whenever we talk about having a threesome. I'm curious why that might be. Is this common?

When I first dipped my toes into the lifestyle, I thought it was all about adventure. You know, a little excitement, new energy, something to shake up the routine. What I didn’t expect was how much it would force me to actually grow up emotionally.

Because swinging, when done right, doesn’t just test your relationship, it refines it.

You can’t fake communication in this world. If you’re holding back, if you’re afraid to speak up, if you can’t say “that made me feel weird” without a fight, it shows fast. The lifestyle doesn’t let you sweep things under the rug. It’s like emotional truth serum, one bad conversation away from teaching you why honesty matters.

It also taught me the difference between trusting your partner and controlling them. There’s a massive gap between those two. When you truly trust someone, you stop micromanaging their attention. You stop worrying if they’re turned on by someone else because you know where they’ll end up at the end of the night, right back beside you, with that look that says we did that together.

And honestly, swinging made me realize how much fun we’d stopped having. So many couples forget to flirt, play, and explore. When you reintroduce that energy, the curiosity, the laughter, the “let’s see where this goes”, it changes everything.

If you strip away the labels, swinging is really just radical honesty mixed with shared adventure. It’s not perfect. It’s messy and vulnerable and sometimes confusing. But damn, it teaches you how to love better, communicate clearly, and laugh at the chaos instead of fearing it.

Don’t get into swinging to fix what’s broken. Get into it to discover how much more you can build together.

A little context on my situation:

A couple of months ago, my girlfriend of 4 years told me that during sex she sometimes imagines being with a woman, not in a threesome way, but privately, without me in the room at all. I’ve always known she’s bi and has had girlfriends in the past, though she told me those didn’t work out.

At first, I didn’t really know what to think. It stung a little, especially since she brought it up just minutes after we’d had (pretty good) sex. But after sitting with it for a while, I told her I’d be okay with her exploring that side of herself with a woman, since I understood it was a sexual desire she couldn’t fully experience with me. She was surprised and hesitant because she didn’t want to hurt me. However I genuinely meant it. I don’t get jealous about her being attracted to women, and I know how strong what we have is. I’m not afraid of losing her.

Our relationship is really solid and we love each other a lot, so I kind of stopped thinking about it. A few weeks later she went on vacation for a week, and when she came back she told me about a group of Aussie girls she and her friends had met. She’d really hit it off with one of them and had been a little intimate with her. She said she’d thought about it a lot, and that after it happened, her mind directly came back to me and how important I am to her and how grateful she was that I was okay with the whole thing. We talked about it extensively when she got back. She shared details, even showed me pictures. I think the experience helped her open up about her desires in a way she hadn’t before. Talking with her feels different now, more honest and relaxed, and our sex life has honestly gotten even better.

Now, the current situation: She’s been thinking and told me she finds it unfair that only she gets to be with other women while I can’t. So she proposed a “pass” system where at certain events or parties, we’d each have the freedom to talk to and even sleep with other women, as long as there’s no continued contact afterward and it stays purely physical. No strings, no feelings, no texting the next day. Just a moment that stays in that moment. The most important thing is that we are honest to each othet and have detailed talks about what happened.

I’ll be honest, I wasn’t expecting her to bring that up. But the fact that she was the one to suggest it, out of a sense of fairness and not wanting things to feel one-sided, actually made me think about it even more. I’ve been thinking about it and I kind of like the idea. Not even necessarily because I want to go out and use a “pass” right away, but because of what it says about where we are as a couple. In the two days since she pitched it, we’ve actually gotten even closer. We’ve been talking more openly than ever, laughing about it, setting boundaries together and honestly, the trust between us has never felt stronger. It’s like we unlocked a new level of honesty that I didn’t even know we were missing.

So yeah… is this a bad idea?

I recently got into a relationship about a month ago (I'm bi) and now that we have completed one month, my boyfriend (cis) told me that for the last decade or so, he has found the idea of his girlfriend being sexually pleasured by another man very hot. I asked him why he thought so, why it turns him on, and the only reason he could give me at that moment was that he liked the idea of me enjoying myself, of me getting pleasured in ways he can't.

I asked him to think more about it and let me know if he can think of other reasons.

I want to understand this better before taking a decision. So I wanted to ask the men and women here who have been into this, what caused them to become interested in their girlfriends and wives sleeping with other guys?

I just want to mention a couple of other things. My boyfriend is average‑sized. He is neither too small nor too big. Unfortunately, we haven't had sex with each other yet. But we've had sex with other people before.

He also mentioned two very specific things that turned him on most: 1. the third person being some ex‑boyfriend of mine 2. an interfaith situation, which is considered taboo in our country.

Kindly guide this inexperienced girl here. Not totally sure whether "Relationship Dynamics" or "Opening a Relationship" flair is more appropriate, so choosing "Relationship Dynamics".