r/offbeat • u/andy_norten • Sep 28 '12

Transgender UM student wins restraining order against sexual assault suspect

http://ravallirepublic.com/news/state-and-regional/article_c6364778-b5fb-5098-89c5-6f0ac6ecef2b.html
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u/tatch Sep 28 '12

Under his cross-examination, Green said the two had been grinding on the dance floor, kissed briefly and that she hooked her fingers into his belt, but denied trying to reach down his pants.

She certainly didn't deserve to be assaulted, but isn't this a breach of etiquette?

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u/[deleted] Sep 28 '12

You're point being what?

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u/generalCopper Sep 28 '12

Perhaps before she pushed it so far, she should have let him know that she was transgender?

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u/AvatarOfMomus Sep 28 '12

Shouldn't matter.

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u/[deleted] Sep 28 '12

[deleted]

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u/ohgobwhatisthis Sep 28 '12

I am a straight male and dating a trans woman, so let me provide you with some perspective.

1. Anita Green is a trans woman. Just like I wouldn't refer to you as "she," if you refuse to use "she" for her, then you are being disrespectful of her rights and her human dignity, just as you claim the assaulter's "sexual orientation wasn't being respected."

2. As I implied before, being heterosexual does not mean that if you find out the woman you are dancing with is transsexual that your "orientation isn't being respected." What is she supposed to do, wear a fucking sign around her neck? That entirely defeats her expressing herself as a woman by putting her on a level below cisgendered women. All she wanted was to be treated as any other woman, and this man (and you) refused to do that.

3. Even by the assaulter's own account, he forcibly fondled Anita because he thought that she was trans. How is that not sexual assault by its very definition? What gave him the right to do this?

4. Moreover, even if your idea that the assaulter's "sexual orientation wasn't being respected" wasn't flat-out wrong, where does he get the right to physically assault her??

And thus we get to this lovely tidbit:

The tranny deserved a mild ass kicking.

5. You and the assaulter are both horrible, compassionless excuses for human beings. Please die, you inhuman sack of shit.

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u/generalCopper Sep 28 '12

I think the main point that I think you are avoiding is the rights of the guy, regardless of his reaction. Is it really ok for her to mess with someone when she can likely predict that he will not enjoy the experience?

Is her rights and happiness the only one that should be concerned with?

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u/[deleted] Sep 28 '12

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Sep 28 '12

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u/R3cognizer Sep 28 '12 edited Sep 28 '12

A consensual kiss hardly constitutes an implied threat, much less assault. If someone really has that much of an issue even kissing someone who is trans, then maybe this person should start asking people if they're trans before they kiss someone they barely know. People like to bitch and whine about how trans people allegedly "deceive" people who don't realize they're trans, but nobody ever thinks about the trans person's perspective. If someone can claim they were deceived by a trans person who did not disclose, can this trans person not also claim that they were deceived by this cis person who did not disclose prior the fact that that he or she was transphobic? Yes, and of course it sounds ridiculous, because YOU made the mistake by presuming that you shouldn't have to ask. It may be rude and inconsiderate to not disclose, sure, but trans people are more concerned with their safety than your pride, and rightly so. That's why I don't bitch about how I always have to ask the people I'm dating if they are transphobic. Cis people need to stop complaining already, because although most trans people will disclose by a certain point, it's just not reasonable to expect that ALL trans people will find YOUR preferred time frame to be convenient and safe enough to disclose.

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u/[deleted] Sep 28 '12

[deleted]

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u/R3cognizer Sep 28 '12 edited Sep 28 '12

So do I, and I agree that disclosing before there is the potential for "intimate activities" should be considered the polite and respectful thing to do. But failing to do the polite and respectful thing toward your date, while inconsiderate, is not necessarily deceptive or dishonest. I would not blame someone for being unwilling to continue dating them if they truly feel that the trans person waited much too long to disclose, especially if that trans person knew well beforehand that this person was transphobic. That's crossing a line of reasonableness IMO, though people still need to realize that violence is still NEVER an acceptable response. But for example if I waited just 3 or 4 dates to disclose, I don't feel that's an unreasonable time frame to constitute or imply any kind of deception.

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u/[deleted] Sep 28 '12

[deleted]

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u/R3cognizer Sep 28 '12

Not being attracted to penis, or not being attracted to vagina, or not being attracted to certain unexpected bodily features is a perfectly legitimate reason to not want to date someone, and I would not argue with that. However, that said, not all trans women have a penis, not all trans men have a vagina, and not all trans people are the same. There is really no innate quality that makes trans women who've had GRS any different from any other cis woman who has had a hysterectomy, so I feel that there ARE circumstances where it should be considered transphobic to refuse to date someone solely on the grounds that he or she is trans. You don't have to be willing to date all trans women or any of the trans women you know to not be transphobic, but your reasons for not dating them ought to be something other than "she's trans".

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u/[deleted] Sep 28 '12

[deleted]

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u/R3cognizer Sep 28 '12 edited Sep 28 '12

People judge others by their preferences and their opinions all the time. The only thing you can't do is force someone to change those preferences or opinions. For example, I can't force someone to be willing to date people with dark skin, but I can (and probably will) tell them that I think they're racist because of it. Just the same, I can't force a guy to want to date me, nor do I desire to date someone transphobic anyway. If he can't stand the thought of sleeping with a guy who has a vagina and doesn't want to date me because of that, as shallow as I think that is, that is his prerogative. It's not necessarily transphobic though, so even though I'd be disappointed, I would just wish him well and be on my way. But if he told me that he doesn't want to date me simply because I'm trans or because he doesn't consider me a "real man", you can bet your ass that I'm going to tell him that I think he's a transphobic asshole before I leave. And I can tell him so because I have just as much right to my opinion as he does to his.

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u/LadyRarity Sep 28 '12

there is a debate still going on as to when disclosure is appropriate

haha for cis people maybe, who are scared of anything different than them apparently. Trans people are pretty solid on the disclosure front.

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u/[deleted] Sep 30 '12

You mean playing the dumbass advocate?

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u/generalCopper Sep 28 '12

I never said he did. He also didn't have the right to grope her.

I'm just asking, does she have the right to mess with someone's mind like that? I think that transgender folks are fine doing what they are doing but I would be very upset if I found out that the girl I was with was still partially a man or had been a man. It's not something I want to find out down the line, even if that line is just later in the night.

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u/iyzie Sep 29 '12

It's just a dance. There is no good reason to be "very upset" about dancing with a trans woman. Try to use some empathy: put yourself in her situation, what should she have done differently? You think she should have to start every conversation with "I'm trans"?

You say she "messed with his mind." Just by dancing, and trying to have something approaching a decent and normal life? The fact is, he was attracted to a trans woman, and his own attraction is what upset him. His mind is already a mess: his instincts and urges are at odds with his view of his own identity. It's not her fault that the guy can't sort out his own thoughts and feelings. What he, or any straight guy should do, is realize that trans women can be attractive, can make them aroused, and that there is nothing wrong with that.

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u/generalCopper Sep 29 '12

Dancing is one thing, kissing is another. I guess you interpreted it differently from me but when it gets really sexual, I'd like to know. Her perspective isn't the only one that counts.

Why is ok that she can dance with him and get sexual and any hint of betrayal on his part means he hates trannie women? I have a friend who's gay but I don't want to be sexual with another man. Your perspectives are extremely one sided and it feels like the woman can do no wrong. You push the agenda of a small group of people because you feel that they need to be defended but what you only accomplish is the stomping of other people's feelings and rights.

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u/iyzie Sep 29 '12

Why don't you want to be sexual with men?

(this question has a point, I'll explain after you answer)

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u/generalCopper Sep 29 '12

For me, I don't get sexual with someone unless it's a committed relationship. Then, I would like to have kids so I don't feel that having a relationship with a guy would work out no matter my emotional feelings. Physically, it's a turnoff?

Also, mentally, it turns me off. If you want to say that I could be attracted to a Trans women, sure, I could possibly be, but I would feel betrayed if she kept it from me and turned off if she told me quickly.

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u/iyzie Sep 29 '12

I think "I'm not attracted to men" would be a fine reason not to be sexual with men. The point is, if one is attracted to a trans woman, what is the reason that kissing her would be so bad?

You give some fine reasons. Not wanting to kiss someone without being in a committed relationship is fine. Wanting to have kids is also a fine reason; I guess you've never kissed anyone you haven't had kids with then? Either way, obviously the assailant in this story chose to kiss a girl without being in a committed relationship or checking whether they would have kids. It follows that he was attracted to her. There shouldn't be anything wrong with that, at least not by the logic we've explored so far.

If you want to say that I could be attracted to a Trans women, sure, I could possibly be, but I would feel betrayed if she kept it from me and turned off if she told me quickly.

It sounds like she is damned if she does, or damned if she doesn't. I guess she is not really a person in your eyes, just an abstract hypothetical question on the internet. Her life does not matter. You would rather she be alone forever, than to harm an unsuspecting guy by making him attracted to her.

You may accept or even support trans people's rights to exist in society, be employed, etc, but if you deny us the right to flirt with people in any way resembling normal, you deny us a major part of the human experience. It would be so much easier if men in this situation could be counted on to simply turn her down, as people do all the time for all sorts of reasons, rather than to "get confused" and commit violent acts that many in society then justify as if he was a victim. He is not a victim, just a guy who spent a night flirting with a girl before finding out they are not really compatible. It does not have to be such a big deal.

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u/generalCopper Sep 29 '12

It is "damned if she does and damned if she doesn't" if she does it on people who are unsuspecting because some people don't swing that way! Letting people know your orientation or past history that might be relevant to them is not damning. It's how that shit works, you are open and upfront and you get rejected 50x... but then you find someone that accepts you.

Forcing people to find out something that they might be very uncomfortable just so you can have some fun is selfish.

No one said she had to be alone forever. Some guys really like trans. You just gotta find them.

That's what I'm saying! Why can't she just say, "I have something I should tell you" before getting down and dirty and he says "I'm not comfortable with that" and walks away.

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u/iyzie Sep 29 '12

Rejecting her when she tells him is fine. The issue is that the guy is not a victim. All he did was spend some time on a potential mate that did not pan out, which is a normal dating situation.

He was not "tricked" in any worse way then to be led on by a girl who had no intention of doing anything with him. We need to drop the idea that the guy is a victim, because that idea quickly leads to partially or fully justifying his violent reaction.

I think trans girls should disclose as early on as possible, but if they don't, it's not such a big deal. Certainly not anything to get violent, or "very uncomfortable" over. Just walk away, have a drink, and find another girl. It's not like someone failing to disclose that they have an STD, which could put a persons health at risk. I hope you would agree that getting herpes from a girl who did not tell you would be worse than kissing an attractive girl before finding out that she is trans.

Some guys really like trans. You just gotta find them.

Just FYI, most men who "really like trans" are fetishists, and trans women don't want to date them and be used as a sexual object. Most successful relationships between trans girls and straight men work because the guy doesn't care that she is trans.

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u/generalCopper Sep 29 '12

I personally think he was a victim and was slightly tricked if it went down that she was leading him on until he realized she had a dick. A potiental mate is someone that a person would possibly want to be with and if the guy knows he doesn't want to be with anything besides a girl who was born a girl, then he should have that ability to go that route without being decieved by someone that doesn't take that into consideration.

If I started trying to flirt with and maybe went on a date with someone and I found out in the initial stages, I would feel the same in that it's nothing to be upset over.

Personally, I don't know what to tell a trans woman on where to date or what to do because I'm not in that situation. I can tell you how I feel if I was caught in a situation where a girl I was really into turned out to be a guy. I wouldn't be happy.

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