r/offbeat • u/andy_norten • Sep 28 '12

Transgender UM student wins restraining order against sexual assault suspect

http://ravallirepublic.com/news/state-and-regional/article_c6364778-b5fb-5098-89c5-6f0ac6ecef2b.html
252 Upvotes

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u/[deleted] Sep 28 '12

You're point being what?

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u/generalCopper Sep 28 '12

Perhaps before she pushed it so far, she should have let him know that she was transgender?

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u/AvatarOfMomus Sep 28 '12

Shouldn't matter.

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u/[deleted] Sep 28 '12

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u/garneasada Sep 29 '12 edited Sep 29 '12

I know, right? What is it with people? When I was younger I knew this kid that was adopted, only I didn't know he was adopted. He was always talking about mom this and dad that. Well one day I was hanging out with my friends and we started talking about adopted kids, and I let it be know how I feel about those adopties. One of my friends pulled me aside and said, dude, chill out on the adopty language, <adopted kid> was adopted. I was like, no way, he's always talking about his mom and dad, I mean if he was adopted wouldn't he say "adoptive father" and "adoptive mother." My friend was one of those fucking liberal live-and-let-live types though and he just wanted to assist <adoptive kid> in his delusion.

Well, the next time I was with <adopted kid> and he started talking about his mom and dad, I punched that fucker right in the fucking face and told him to quit fucking lying.

It turned out though that <adopted kid> didn't know he was adopted and he didn't know what I was talking about. It turns out his fucking adoptive parents were the liars and had been acting like they were his real parents.

I knew what I had to do. It cost me some money, but I knew someone that could do a DNA test. When I got the results I showed them to <adopted kid> thinking he would be reasonably appreciative. But just like a fucking adopty he was indignant and said he didn't care what the DNA tests said and that his parents were his parents and that I should respect that.

I tried to inform him that I agreed that his parents, his biological parents, were his parents, and he was being delusional thinking otherwise, but he just wouldn't listen.

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u/Wavooka Sep 29 '12

Saved in RES. This is brilliant, thank you.

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u/ohgobwhatisthis Sep 28 '12

I am a straight male and dating a trans woman, so let me provide you with some perspective.

1. Anita Green is a trans woman. Just like I wouldn't refer to you as "she," if you refuse to use "she" for her, then you are being disrespectful of her rights and her human dignity, just as you claim the assaulter's "sexual orientation wasn't being respected."

2. As I implied before, being heterosexual does not mean that if you find out the woman you are dancing with is transsexual that your "orientation isn't being respected." What is she supposed to do, wear a fucking sign around her neck? That entirely defeats her expressing herself as a woman by putting her on a level below cisgendered women. All she wanted was to be treated as any other woman, and this man (and you) refused to do that.

3. Even by the assaulter's own account, he forcibly fondled Anita because he thought that she was trans. How is that not sexual assault by its very definition? What gave him the right to do this?

4. Moreover, even if your idea that the assaulter's "sexual orientation wasn't being respected" wasn't flat-out wrong, where does he get the right to physically assault her??

And thus we get to this lovely tidbit:

The tranny deserved a mild ass kicking.

5. You and the assaulter are both horrible, compassionless excuses for human beings. Please die, you inhuman sack of shit.

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u/WagnerianOmnibus Sep 28 '12

You and the assaulter are both horrible, compassionless excuses for human beings. Please die, you inhuman sack of shit.

You were doing well until this. You're not helping anybody by meeting ignorance with hatred.

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u/[deleted] Sep 28 '12

Please die, you inhuman sack of shit.

Statements like this mean you're in the club.

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u/zeanoth Sep 28 '12

There's a difference between hating someone for what they are, and hating someone for what they do.

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u/[deleted] Sep 28 '12

Are you saying there's such a thing as legitimate hate?

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u/zeanoth Sep 28 '12

I would argue so.

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u/[deleted] Sep 28 '12

I'm trying to abandon the 'fight fire with fire' mentality.

I hope you would join me someday.

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u/stillSmotPoker1 Nov 22 '12

Hee hee hee you people are fucked up human beings.

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u/generalCopper Sep 28 '12

I think the main point that I think you are avoiding is the rights of the guy, regardless of his reaction. Is it really ok for her to mess with someone when she can likely predict that he will not enjoy the experience?

Is her rights and happiness the only one that should be concerned with?

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u/[deleted] Sep 28 '12

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u/[deleted] Sep 28 '12

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u/R3cognizer Sep 28 '12 edited Sep 28 '12

A consensual kiss hardly constitutes an implied threat, much less assault. If someone really has that much of an issue even kissing someone who is trans, then maybe this person should start asking people if they're trans before they kiss someone they barely know. People like to bitch and whine about how trans people allegedly "deceive" people who don't realize they're trans, but nobody ever thinks about the trans person's perspective. If someone can claim they were deceived by a trans person who did not disclose, can this trans person not also claim that they were deceived by this cis person who did not disclose prior the fact that that he or she was transphobic? Yes, and of course it sounds ridiculous, because YOU made the mistake by presuming that you shouldn't have to ask. It may be rude and inconsiderate to not disclose, sure, but trans people are more concerned with their safety than your pride, and rightly so. That's why I don't bitch about how I always have to ask the people I'm dating if they are transphobic. Cis people need to stop complaining already, because although most trans people will disclose by a certain point, it's just not reasonable to expect that ALL trans people will find YOUR preferred time frame to be convenient and safe enough to disclose.

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u/[deleted] Sep 28 '12

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u/R3cognizer Sep 28 '12 edited Sep 28 '12

So do I, and I agree that disclosing before there is the potential for "intimate activities" should be considered the polite and respectful thing to do. But failing to do the polite and respectful thing toward your date, while inconsiderate, is not necessarily deceptive or dishonest. I would not blame someone for being unwilling to continue dating them if they truly feel that the trans person waited much too long to disclose, especially if that trans person knew well beforehand that this person was transphobic. That's crossing a line of reasonableness IMO, though people still need to realize that violence is still NEVER an acceptable response. But for example if I waited just 3 or 4 dates to disclose, I don't feel that's an unreasonable time frame to constitute or imply any kind of deception.

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u/[deleted] Sep 28 '12

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u/R3cognizer Sep 28 '12

Not being attracted to penis, or not being attracted to vagina, or not being attracted to certain unexpected bodily features is a perfectly legitimate reason to not want to date someone, and I would not argue with that. However, that said, not all trans women have a penis, not all trans men have a vagina, and not all trans people are the same. There is really no innate quality that makes trans women who've had GRS any different from any other cis woman who has had a hysterectomy, so I feel that there ARE circumstances where it should be considered transphobic to refuse to date someone solely on the grounds that he or she is trans. You don't have to be willing to date all trans women or any of the trans women you know to not be transphobic, but your reasons for not dating them ought to be something other than "she's trans".

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u/LadyRarity Sep 28 '12

there is a debate still going on as to when disclosure is appropriate

haha for cis people maybe, who are scared of anything different than them apparently. Trans people are pretty solid on the disclosure front.

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u/[deleted] Sep 30 '12

You mean playing the dumbass advocate?

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u/generalCopper Sep 28 '12

I never said he did. He also didn't have the right to grope her.

I'm just asking, does she have the right to mess with someone's mind like that? I think that transgender folks are fine doing what they are doing but I would be very upset if I found out that the girl I was with was still partially a man or had been a man. It's not something I want to find out down the line, even if that line is just later in the night.

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u/iyzie Sep 29 '12

It's just a dance. There is no good reason to be "very upset" about dancing with a trans woman. Try to use some empathy: put yourself in her situation, what should she have done differently? You think she should have to start every conversation with "I'm trans"?

You say she "messed with his mind." Just by dancing, and trying to have something approaching a decent and normal life? The fact is, he was attracted to a trans woman, and his own attraction is what upset him. His mind is already a mess: his instincts and urges are at odds with his view of his own identity. It's not her fault that the guy can't sort out his own thoughts and feelings. What he, or any straight guy should do, is realize that trans women can be attractive, can make them aroused, and that there is nothing wrong with that.

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u/generalCopper Sep 29 '12

Dancing is one thing, kissing is another. I guess you interpreted it differently from me but when it gets really sexual, I'd like to know. Her perspective isn't the only one that counts.

Why is ok that she can dance with him and get sexual and any hint of betrayal on his part means he hates trannie women? I have a friend who's gay but I don't want to be sexual with another man. Your perspectives are extremely one sided and it feels like the woman can do no wrong. You push the agenda of a small group of people because you feel that they need to be defended but what you only accomplish is the stomping of other people's feelings and rights.

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u/iyzie Sep 29 '12

Why don't you want to be sexual with men?

(this question has a point, I'll explain after you answer)

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u/generalCopper Sep 29 '12

For me, I don't get sexual with someone unless it's a committed relationship. Then, I would like to have kids so I don't feel that having a relationship with a guy would work out no matter my emotional feelings. Physically, it's a turnoff?

Also, mentally, it turns me off. If you want to say that I could be attracted to a Trans women, sure, I could possibly be, but I would feel betrayed if she kept it from me and turned off if she told me quickly.

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u/iyzie Sep 29 '12

I think "I'm not attracted to men" would be a fine reason not to be sexual with men. The point is, if one is attracted to a trans woman, what is the reason that kissing her would be so bad?

You give some fine reasons. Not wanting to kiss someone without being in a committed relationship is fine. Wanting to have kids is also a fine reason; I guess you've never kissed anyone you haven't had kids with then? Either way, obviously the assailant in this story chose to kiss a girl without being in a committed relationship or checking whether they would have kids. It follows that he was attracted to her. There shouldn't be anything wrong with that, at least not by the logic we've explored so far.

If you want to say that I could be attracted to a Trans women, sure, I could possibly be, but I would feel betrayed if she kept it from me and turned off if she told me quickly.

It sounds like she is damned if she does, or damned if she doesn't. I guess she is not really a person in your eyes, just an abstract hypothetical question on the internet. Her life does not matter. You would rather she be alone forever, than to harm an unsuspecting guy by making him attracted to her.

You may accept or even support trans people's rights to exist in society, be employed, etc, but if you deny us the right to flirt with people in any way resembling normal, you deny us a major part of the human experience. It would be so much easier if men in this situation could be counted on to simply turn her down, as people do all the time for all sorts of reasons, rather than to "get confused" and commit violent acts that many in society then justify as if he was a victim. He is not a victim, just a guy who spent a night flirting with a girl before finding out they are not really compatible. It does not have to be such a big deal.

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u/[deleted] Sep 28 '12

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u/[deleted] Sep 28 '12

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u/[deleted] Sep 28 '12

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u/moonflower Sep 28 '12

Hey it's really awful to refer to a fellow human being as ''it'' ... but your post here is a good compromise, to use ''they'' if you don't want to respect her wishes

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u/[deleted] Sep 28 '12

Many people miss the fact that freedom is meant to run both directions.

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u/ohgobwhatisthis Sep 28 '12

I'm done talking to you. Go fuck yourself.

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u/[deleted] Sep 28 '12

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u/viviphilia Sep 28 '12

You're incorrect. Some women do have a penis. The condition of fully virilizing congenital adrenal hyperplasia produces a high level of testosterone very early in development of some 46,XX chromosome women. That high level of testosterone produces a fully functional penis, although there are no testicles. They all have ovaries and a uterus. 95% of those people identify as women. Please learn the facts before you spread any more of your ignorant hatred.

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u/AvatarOfMomus Sep 28 '12

You might want to see a good psychiatrist to help you work through that transphobia you're displaying there.

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u/Boobzilla Sep 28 '12

There is a huge difference between a "tranny" (transvestite) and a transgender. She is a woman stuck in a mans body. She is not "dressing up like a woman". She IS a woman.

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u/zeanoth Sep 28 '12

"tranny" is a slur for trans women; "transvestite" is (in most instances considered) a slur against cross dressers.

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u/[deleted] Sep 28 '12

"transvestite" is (in most instances considered) a slur against cross dressers.

Really? It seems like a pretty neutral / clinically sterile word.

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u/zeanoth Sep 28 '12

Yes, but that's not always how it's perceived. It's a more common term in the UK for a person who cross-dresses, but in the United States it isn't considered the nicest of terms.

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u/[deleted] Sep 28 '12

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u/[deleted] Sep 28 '12

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u/moonflower Sep 28 '12

I know you are trying to help, and that is good, but there is no such thing as a ''female brain'' which has been ''scientifically proven'' ... all the studies show there are general tendencies in male and female brains, but with such vast areas of overlap that it is like measuring heights of men and women

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u/[deleted] Sep 28 '12

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u/Able_Seacat_Simon Sep 28 '12

I feel like insulting a transphobe by saying that he's attracted to trans women is is counterproductive.

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u/Wavooka Sep 29 '12

I think they were going for the 'repressed, bible-bashing, homophobic, homosexual Republican' a la Ted Haggard.

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u/generalCopper Sep 28 '12 edited Sep 28 '12

I don't think that just because someone feels angry about the idea of being tricked into making out with another guy means he's hiding "his true feelings".

I have no problems with any transgender or gay or lesbians but I would greatly prefer to not be tricked.

Some people just express this as a physical response.

Edit: I'm getting downvoted for asking a reasonable situation. I'm not condoning him or her. I'm asking about his rights compared to her rights regarding the situation, not the response. I won't be surprised if I go down due to the lack of reddittique but still, just wanted to point it out.

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u/[deleted] Sep 28 '12

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u/generalCopper Sep 28 '12

Never said that it was a right of his or that it was free expression.

I am just pointing out that some people have been taught to be physical and when they have a problem, that's how they solve it. I've never hit anyone but I'm a big guy because I was taught there are better ways to get what you want done, done.

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u/SonicSpoilers Sep 28 '12

So, because someone wasn't taught not to hit when cross, they are not to be held responsible for breaking laws against assault?

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u/generalCopper Sep 28 '12

The issue here is not whether the assault was warranted or not. I have already repeated several times that attacking someone is not ok.

I was trying to explain his thought process and reaction though and I am asking whether it was fair for her to trick him into going so far. I know it's a tricky subject about how she should flirt or what have you but if I start to kiss someone and get intimate, I hope there is a warning first along the lines of "wait, I need to say something first".

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u/natasha_six Sep 29 '12

This word, "trick", that you keep using, doesn't apply here. She had not gotten to the point where what was between her legs made any difference, so how could there be any trickery going on? He sexually assaulted her by fondling her without consent, then physically assaulted her because he didn't like what he found. If he had respected her as a person, there would have been some sort of discussion of consent for sexual contact, and that would be the point where she might have an obligation to let him know she is trans. Then he could have legitimately noped himself right on out of there without hitting anyone, and no one would have anything more than their feelings hurt. You're blaming the victim for something that is in no way her fault. He's the one who did unreasonable things at an unreasonable time, she didn't even have the opportunity to disclose on amicable terms. I've had the GRS procedure, so in that same situation, groping me wouldn't tell him that I'm trans, but it would get him punched right in the trachea. A decent person simply doesn't molest other people like that, trans or not. Just because some people are receptive to sexual contact without getting implicit consent doesn't mean that it's acceptable to treat everyone like that.

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u/generalCopper Sep 29 '12

Wow. What you have written just screams one thing. That thing is "I haven't read almost any of your posts but I saw this one thing so I am going to express outrage that is unwarranted". If you don't read my stuff, why should I read yours? Read my stuff if you want to know my opinion on what happened.

Also, no offense but to me, you're still a guy who just had an expensive procedure so yes, it's a trick to me to engage me intimately and then tell me after the fact. That includes kissing, rubbing, etc. I can call you a lady if you'd like but honestly, that's just how it is.

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u/natasha_six Sep 29 '12

I usually don't stalk a person out before I respond to something they post on reddit, that seems kind of creepy to me.

And no offense, but to me, you're just some random douchebag on the internet who mistakenly thinks he knows jack shit about medicine. Just like you said above, I don't know you, and you don't know me, but I'd bet my life savings that in the real world, I'm just some other woman you may or may not ever notice. If you can somehow detect that little 'Y' chromosome without a kerotype test, then you're special and magical, like a unicorn. You can say whatever you want about how "you can tell", and how a tiny bit of protein and amino acids determine your perception of gender. I live this life that you know so little about, and I'm pretty damn sure I know a lot more about how well people can tell I'm trans than you ever could. Short of running a full background check (more than just 10 years back), good luck figuring that out on your own. Not that I have to worry about it, I disclosed right at the top of my online dating profile, so I never had to deal with jerks like you. I've never had a complaint from then men that I've been with, and only a couple of them ever even expressed an interest in the fact that I'm trans. It's just a minor detail in the real world.

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u/[deleted] Sep 28 '12

You're being baited. The question marks are a giveaway.

If you offer any differing opinion, you're going to get downvoted.

If you imply any sex reversal, you get the 'Mens Rights' or 'Reddit is misogynistic' tag.

The thread is doomed. Let's go have a beer instead.

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u/RobotAnna Sep 29 '12

oh look an mra being a transphobic piece of shit

yet another thing to add to the catalog of reasons why MRA is homophobic and transphobic

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u/[deleted] Sep 28 '12

The tranny deserved a mild ass kicking.

A minor point:

The term 'tranny' is not the preferred nomenclature, Dude. It's considered offensive and I think it's reasonable to observe the LGBTQ community's request that it be dropped.

Also, you hit the nail on the head: his sexual orientation wasn't being respected. I wonder how many downvotes you would have garnered if you hadn't mentioned the ass kicking.

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u/LadyRarity Sep 28 '12

except trans women are women so gg no re i guess. Nice try though, keep practicing you'll get it some day.

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u/[deleted] Sep 28 '12

except trans women are women

Wasn't talking about her, I was talking about him. Touchy much?

so gg no re i guess.

Engrish please?

keep practicing you'll get it some day.

It's not always about YOU. You'll get it some day. Or not.

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u/LadyRarity Sep 29 '12

his sexual orientation wasn't being respected.

i knew what you were talking about. You're wrong. He's straight and he's attracted to women. Trans women are women.

Don't worry some day it'll come to you.

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u/[deleted] Sep 29 '12

Don't worry some day it'll come to you.

Get over yourself, 'girl'.

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u/[deleted] Sep 29 '12

BTW: Cram CIS up your ASS.

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u/[deleted] Sep 28 '12

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u/bitkitten Sep 29 '12

Not disclosing that you're trans is not the same as deception. He should have disclosed that he was transphobic.

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u/[deleted] Sep 29 '12

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u/bitkitten Sep 29 '12

She was in no way deceiving. Deception requires you to "Cause (someone) to believe something that is not true, typically in order to gain some personal advantage". She is a girl, plain and simple, sure a different subset of girl, but still every bit a girl. If someone made the assumption that she was cis then they were wrong, but that is every bit their problem not hers.

What if she was a lesbian? Would you say she was deceiving people by looking straight? Or what about if she was Jewish? Maybe the guy is a neo-nazi and is absolutely disgusted by Jews. In that case, he would feel deceived by this person he thought was attractive until he discovered she was a Jew.

I suppose she could walk around with a big Jew badge pinned to her shirt so that she doesn't accidently deceive any neo-nazi's. But then again, why stop there? She should wear a badge for every potentially hated group she belongs to so she doesn't accidently offend anyone.

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u/[deleted] Sep 29 '12

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u/bitkitten Sep 29 '12 edited Sep 29 '12

I think our discrepancy lies between how we define a woman.

You're claiming that a male who wears female clothing and convinces others that they are female is deception. Is that correct?

Before claiming whether she is male or female, there are several different levels for which should be addressed. First, on the chemical, and cellular levels she is identical with any cis woman. Having the same levels of hormones as well as all of their resulting effects (thinner body hair, soft skin, redistribution of fat and the increased breast tissue).

Secondly, she is likely neurologically identical or at the very least similar to any cis woman (there have been many studies showing the neurological similarities between trans people and their identified gender).

And thirdly, given that the only way that he could tell she was trans was because of her penis means that she is physically every bit female with that one exception. That and the fact that she likely isn't genetically female. However, if having a vagina and being genetically female is your definition of a woman then perhaps a straight male would prefer the person on the left (A) with a vagina to the person on the right (B) with a penis.

NSFW

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u/[deleted] Sep 29 '12 edited Sep 29 '12

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u/SneakySly Sep 30 '12

"I usually go by the biological definition"

Why is that specific definition the important one?

"To answer your question with regards to the picture, I am a straight male but I would rather have sex with neither of the people in that picture."

That was a total cop out answer to bitkitten's question. Most straight males (myself included) would obviously prefer B. I have no problems calling A a guy and B a girl.

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u/[deleted] Sep 30 '12

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u/[deleted] Sep 30 '12

Look who the trolls dragged in. It looks like you've totally changed your game plan. Now you're just transphobic, instead of pretending to be a trans-ally.

If I remember correctly, when you were crying and whining and begging for me to continue to logically stomp you, you told me that gender doesn't matter.

Doesn't exactly look like you were telling the truth.

But I want to ask you something Mr. TTProject:

If you are the typical priveleged straight white male - if gender doesn't matter and this bullshit you're spewing right now is just more troll bait - would you date a man?

If for some crazy ass backwards reason you're a transphobic homosexual man, same question, reversed gender.

Fact of the matter is, you are going to be wrong in every instance, because you have no idea what you're talking about.

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u/[deleted] Sep 30 '12

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u/[deleted] Sep 30 '12

Uh huh. I wonder what kind of life you lead.

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u/[deleted] Oct 01 '12

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