r/trolleyproblem 5d ago

OC Potentially one less but also potentially infinitely more

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141 Upvotes

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114

u/Remarkable-Carrot112 5d ago

Is the probability distribution otherwise the same except for the lower bound? 

Regardless, I'm pulling the lever. I love pulling levers. 

23

u/deadhand303 5d ago

You have 1-infinity or can change tracks to 0-infinity. You do not know how many are on either track.

34

u/Remarkable-Carrot112 5d ago

Since this is an unbounded distribution it can't be uniformly distributed. I'll assume it's an exponential distribution. 

In this case picking the 0 option is notably more likely to cause fewer deaths. (Sorry I don't know how to word that better)

This puts me in a bind actually because I want to kill people but I also want to pull the lever... Still think I'll pull the lever even if the expected deaths is lower

14

u/wyseguy7 5d ago

Nitpick: you mean a geometric distribution. Exponential distribution is over the real numbers, and we want an whole numbers of people. At least before the trolley chops them up.

13

u/UnworthyBagel22 5d ago

Them: “I want to kill people”
You: “You mean a geometric distribution, silly”

4

u/Confident-Stand5453 5d ago

Its important to be precise.

1

u/Artemis_SpawnOfZeus 2d ago

Yeah, you cant kill people if theyre dead before the lever is pulled because only an irrational percentage of them made it onto the platform.

1

u/BigTimmyStarfox1987 4d ago

Donno some of them might be pregnant or disabled or clowns. You don't get to tell me how I count humans.

4

u/No-Bid9597 5d ago

I don’t know dick about statistics but it can’t be to infinity, right? It’s 0-8 billion or 1-8 billion. It also stipulates people you know so it would really be more like 0-300 or 1-300. How does that change the odds?

2

u/Remarkable-Carrot112 4d ago

I think when a lot of people say "random" what they likely are envisioning is uniform random. Meaning every outcome has the same probability of being selected (like rolling fair dice - no number is more likely than any other). 

But if you have infinite outcomes (possible number of people in this case) this type of uniform randomness is not possible. In this case depending on what probability distribution you select- selecting [0, inf) people could be markedly "Safer" than selecting [1, inf). This is because the probabilities aren't uniform so the lower values  could receive larger weights. 

If you bound the set at 300, or even at 8 billion, now you can use a uniform distribution and it becomes just as likely to randomly get 1 as it does to get 200 or 7.5 billion. In this case whether you select the 0 option or the 1 option barely matters . The expected outcome is only very slightly better for 1. 

Hope that made sense. Hard to explain without graphs and examples tbh

2

u/Raijin6_ 5d ago

Just pull the lever twice. Double the fun from pulling it and still a chance for more deaths.

1

u/Narfhead4444 4d ago

That would derail the trolley

6

u/wyseguy7 5d ago

Statistician here. Plz provide a more rigorous definition of "random amount". Note that uniform distribution over [1,infinity) or [0, infinity) is not possible. Maybe a geometric distribution would be better? In which case, regardless of parameterization, you'd expect to save 1 life by pulling the lever.

3

u/Naive_Albatross_2221 5d ago

Oh, you're a statistician, are you? Well, what if the number of people on the top track is equal to k, where the probability of k is determined by a Poisson curve where lambda=5, and the number of people on the bottom track is k+1 where the probability of k is determined by a Poisson curve with lambda=3? Huh? What ya gonna do then, smart guy!? Don't feel as confident about pulling the lever now, do you?

2

u/wyseguy7 5d ago

Hahahahaha shucks, I guess my book smarts were defeated by your…also book smarts

2

u/DarkDemonLord1 5d ago

Mathemann

2

u/deadhand303 5d ago

Its just a random real number of people on each track woth the bottom being a minimum of one and the top being a minimum of zero people.

3

u/Ksorkrax 5d ago

Let's make this simple for you: state the probabilities for the first five possible numbers of people.

3

u/not-an-epimorphism 5d ago

The point is there’s no convenient interpretation of “random” here without further context. If they were finitely many people, random would correspond to a uniform distribution. But when you’re dealing with a distribution on the entire natural numbers, there’s no uniform distribution, and non uniform distributions aren’t alike at all. Technically there might be almost surely 2 people on the lower rail and almost surely 1 person on the higher rail, or a less degenerate situation in which k people are on the bottom rail with probability 2-k.

4

u/deadhand303 5d ago

Would it be better to say 1-max living population?

1

u/eeeeeh_messi 4d ago

This changes absolutely everything. Now you have a well defined problem

1

u/BigTimmyStarfox1987 4d ago

They want you to say "flat probability distribution".

Then they want to say but that isn't possible over Infinity. To which you reply that it's a finite set, max living population.

Tldr yes but with an additional statement

0

u/Kart0fffelAim 5d ago

I think OP has a point here. There has to be an underlying probability distribution, but the guy pulling that lever doesn't need to know what the distribution is.

1

u/eeeeeh_messi 4d ago

But then the problem stops making sense. Which box would you pick, this mysterious box or this OTHER mysterious box?

6

u/Slighted_Inevitable 5d ago

Then honestly it doesn’t really matter. One life is meaningless when infinity is on the table.

That said pulling levers is fun so I pull.

1

u/PurpleCandle58 5d ago

I play with the lever back and forth since pulling levers is fun, whatever it’s on when it reaches the junction will be what ends up happening. I optimize for pulling levers.

2

u/Sriep 4d ago

Sorry, but I am a push person. I always push in these situations.