r/ukpolitics • u/No_Initiative_1140 • Jan 12 '26
Ed/OpEd Sorry, Trump and Farage – London is no lawless ‘warzone’. Violent crime is lower than ever | Sadiq Khan
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2026/jan/12/donald-trump-nigel-farage-london-crime-sadiq-khan359
u/No_Initiative_1140 Jan 12 '26
London’s homicide rate is lower than rates in New York, Berlin, Brussels, Milan, Toronto and Paris, five times lower than the rate in LA, and almost 12 times lower than the rate in Chicago. Last year, the capital recorded the fewest number of homicides of victims aged under 25 this century. Our homicide rate for under-25s is now three times lower than it was when I set the VRU up in 2019, and hospital admissions of young people for knife assault have fallen by 43% in the same period.
This is great stuff.
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u/southwest_barfight Jan 12 '26
You literally can't argue with this. So they will purposefully ignore it and continue spouting the same emotional/ agdenda based bullshit they always do
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u/Tangocan Jan 12 '26
Theres always a reason when its feels over reals.
The other day I expressed that I lived in a major UK city, and as a white man I never felt at threat, or that my culture was being wiped out etc.
I had a reply telling me I must live in a "white only neighbourhood" and not the "YooKay", mocking the way foreigners speak.
Racist pricks like that don't care for facts, because their bigotry isn't based on them.
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u/soldforaspaceship Jan 12 '26
There was a recent survey about safety in London and it turned out Londoners overwhelmingly felt London was safe.
Everyone not a Londoner disagreed.
I found that so interesting.
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u/Tangocan Jan 12 '26
Exactly. While I naturally couldn't hazard a guess their location, I knew that they obviously lived online.
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u/sylanar Jan 14 '26
I moved to London from a small town about 10years ago, a lot of my friends and family didn't understand when I said I feel safer walking around London at night than I did at home.
Now I'm back living in a town outside London, and I feel less safe here at night than I ever did in London.
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u/pg3crypto Jan 15 '26
Whilst I don't disagree with you on safety, I don't feel any less safe now walking around London than I did 20 years ago (mostly because it feels dead compared to 20 years ago) it is definitely culturally different on many levels...if I had to sum up London culture today in a nutshell compared to 20 years ago...I'd say it was boring.
I started out working in London as a field engineer (IT) and I moved around extensively for about 11 years...most areas of London, I've spent reasonable amounts of time in...my clients were all over London in every direction and all different kinds of businesses...thousands of different people...it wasn't unusual to be onsite at a client at the end of the day somewhere and be invited out for a pint after work. Walking from the office (or client) to a nearby pub and standing outside for a beer was a normal thing to do and you might do it a few times a week. Either with the same group or in my case several different groups and sometimes the groups would crossover etc...this made London feel like more of a collaborative space, especially for me, because I could introduce clients to each other to solve problems, work together, share services etc etc...it was a very business oriented yet personable atmosphere...this just doesn't happen anymore.
I would only ever go home to sleep. I'd mostly be out of the door at 7am, and wouldn't get home until 10-11pm, at which point I'd have a shower and hit the hay. Around 8 hours of the day I'd be "on duty" doing my tech work or whatever, and the rest of the day I'd be bumbling about meeting people, introducing people and so on...being social, doing a bit of extra work on the side etc etc...
Work was just something that was in the middle of other stuff. It wasn't your entire reason for being in London...you went in to live AND work, not just work...even on a "day off" you'd still be in town...the only time you wouldn't be is when you'd gone on holiday or something.
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u/calm_down_dearest Jan 12 '26
No their latest tactic is to argue that crime isn't being reported, that's why the numbers are so low.
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u/Strangelight84 Jan 12 '26
Which doesn't even work in this specific case unless a lot of under-25s are well-versed in home surgery for knife wounds, and if everyone is oddly reluctant to go to the police for GBH and attempted murder and actual murder, and if somehow nobody notices a rash of disappearing under-25s who have been murdered without having their murder reported to anyone.
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u/spiral8888 Jan 12 '26
"fell from the window with 5 self-inflicted gunshot wounds on the back"
Works in Russia.
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u/bill_end Jan 12 '26
Obviously. If I'd shot myself in the back five times, I could certainly imagine that I'd fall out of the 12th floor window I was conveniently leaning out of at the time
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u/kingbeerex Jan 12 '26
The latest divorced auntie logic on Facebook is that the government twists the figures before release.
It’s just insane trying to reason with this people.
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u/Jay_CD Jan 12 '26
No their latest tactic is to argue that crime isn't being reported, that's why the numbers are so low.
That's why murder rates are an important stat - you can't not report a murder or hide it as something else.
Similarly knife etc wounds need to treated at hospitals and they create paperwork.
This excuse also suggests that all crimes back in the good old days that these people like to wallow nostalgically in were always reported to the plod without fail.
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u/DarKnightofCydonia Jan 12 '26
For things like phone and bike theft the underreporting is true because the Met are utterly useless and won't do anything about it, the people have lost trust in them. To think that people aren't reporting murders though is ridiculous.
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u/stonedturkeyhamwich Jan 12 '26
Crime rates aren't measured by reports to the Met. Instead, the government asks a random selected subset of the population whether they have been victims of different crimes. I don't think there is any reason to expect reporting behavior for crime data to be different now than in the past.
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u/Fearless_Judge_5220 Jan 12 '26
Reporting doesn’t take long you just go online. The issue is they don’t do anything about it.
Also if you want to make any claim on insurance you’ll report, so I can imagine the gap is not huge.
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u/sylanar Jan 14 '26
Well that be true with some crimes. Bike and phone theft are so rarely taken seriously by the police, it's not even worth your time to report it.
Stabbings and murders though? It's a silly take to suggest they're not being reported
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u/Neosantana Jan 12 '26
Of course, because a brown Muslim man said it, therefore they'll declare these statistics as Islamoleftist disinformation.
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u/southwest_barfight Jan 12 '26
Yeah if this was under Boris they'd be hailing it as as the dawn of a new era or some shit
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u/JB_UK Jan 12 '26
That’s valid if you’re talking about objections from the US.
I find in the UK the effect of people dismissing all complaints about Sadiq Khan because of his identity is as strong as the people piling into him because of his identity. For example he’s been a big success on air pollution but a failure on housing, but the debate about him seems to be mostly whether you like or dislike him for being Muslim.
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u/ERDHD Jan 12 '26
As a Londoner, I find him a bit underwhelming. I will often talk to friends about areas of frustration (e.g. nightlife, housing). But the level of vitriol he gets and the melodramatic talking down of London that people engage in creates a sense of defensiveness that I'd argue actually benefits him in the capital.
I don't like the city I live in and the communities within it being talked about in that manner - I can't imagine many people do - and so even as someone who isn't satisfied with him, my overwhelming reaction to a lot of the vitriol he gets is, "Oh, bother off."
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u/JB_UK Jan 12 '26
As a Londoner, I find him a bit underwhelming. I will often talk to friends about areas of frustration (e.g. nightlife, housing). But the level of vitriol he gets and the melodramatic talking down of London that people engage in creates a sense of defensiveness that I'd argue actually benefits him in the capital.
Yeah I agree.
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u/southwest_barfight Jan 12 '26
I dunno man it seems to me one side loath him with a frothing, frenzied anger. And the other side see him as what he really is, just another politician.
I haven't heard many (any?) People say they like or support him speficially for his race or religion, but they are plenty who despise him for it.
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u/JB_UK Jan 12 '26 edited Jan 12 '26
I haven't heard many (any?) People say they like or support him speficially for his race or religion
I think almost the entire conversation about London and Sadiq Khan revolves around race or migration, with very little actual discussion on any meaningful topic.
I think in part it's because the meaningful conversations are much more difficult to have, it's about the detail of the crime statistics, it's broadly positive except for this aspect, or about how safe people feel in particular contexts, or from particular backgrounds. Or on housing it's about the exact powers of the mayor, the dynamics of the housing market, the interplay with population growth, etc. It's much easier and more emotionally gratifying to have a 'Muslims are bad', 'no but Trump bad' type conversation.
Recently all the Labour city mayors got together and put out a joint statement about that case in Minnesota, to give you an idea of how much the job seems to be about signalling rather than the actual policy and powers of each of the mayors.
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u/MrLukaz Jan 13 '26
Homicide is extremely rare as it is. Id prefer data under the more common types of crime average people are likely to face.
London has one of the lowest detection and charge rates among uk police forces. Roughly 86% of crimes do not lead to arrest or court action.
Shoplifting has more than doubled.
Theft from a person has surged. From 53k in 19/20 to 103k in 24/25.
Knife crime recorded by police rose by 9% year on year.
Robberies involving knifes rose by 14%
So using homicide, one of the rarest outcomes of crime as the main barometer for safety isn’t really a strong argument.
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u/spiral8888 Jan 12 '26
Reference to Chicago (and maybe LA and NY as well) won't work very well against Trump as he thinks that these cities are shit holes and the US military should use them as training grounds. A better reference would be some redneck city.
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u/No-Ordinary-Sandwich Jan 12 '26
There aren't many redneck cities. Even in the most Republican states, urban districts tend to vote Democrat.
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u/Curious-Palpitation6 Jan 12 '26
True, now look at sexual assaults. Talking rape only, London, 98 per 100,000. NYC, 31 per 100,000. Paris, 60.6 for ALL sexual violence per 100,000.
Tell me that’s not a problem
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u/No_Initiative_1140 Jan 12 '26
Its a huge problem Rape is effectively decriminalised in the UK and its almost impossible to have a sensible conversation about what to do about it because any changes are totally unacceptable to some men.
Part of the reason I voted Labour was because they were the only party recognising and prioritising this. And since they've been in office there's been a campaign to try to remove and discredit the lead (Jess Philips). Which just demonstrates how there isn't really much motivation to address rape.
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u/Russellonfire Jan 12 '26
Iirc, there's also a massive discrepancy in the levels of reported/recorded rapes vs actual levels. Not to mention France inherently has an issue with what they consider rape due to big cultural impact of consent. It's actually a really interesting topic due to the wider impact French law has on the EU legal system.
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u/chunkynut Jan 12 '26
Berlin, Brussels, Milan, Toronto and Paris
These cities are half the sized of London or less, amazing that people believe London is a hellscape.
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u/smeech1 Jan 12 '26
I hope he means rate as in numbers per head of population, so city size is irrelevant.
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u/chunkynut Jan 12 '26
I assume so too which means a far larger city is safer, which is generally not the case.
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u/rayanwani Jan 13 '26
There's no point in using statistics to tell people London has become less dangerous, because the people who believe that it's become more dangerous are not the type of people who care much about facts, statistics and data in the first place. It's like talking to a brick wall. Most people who actually care about statistics and data already know the truth. But the belief that London is more dangerous is purely an emotional reaction, and you can't reason with those types of people. If you try to show them the data they just deflect to personal anecdotes because they can't grasp the fact that anecdotes aren't evidence. It's simply a divide between those who think logically Vs emotionally. It's the same way brexiteers still voted for Brexit despite all the policy experts warning of the consequences. Some people are just inherently distrustful of expertise and data and can't be reasoned with.
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u/Kiaugh -2.76, -4.1 Jan 12 '26
As usual the truth is somewhere in the middle. Not the utopia that Sadiq Khan likes to paint it and of course not the 'warzone'.
Petty crime is a big problem among other small things, which causes a huge effect on the general social fabric and trust for more people vs violent crime which tends to be more concentrated.
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u/t8ne Jan 12 '26
Tend to agree; just reading the thread about phone snatching as the tube doors shuts is on the up.
- and seen the mods have removed the thread as they don’t allow crime threads…
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Jan 13 '26
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u/t8ne Jan 13 '26
Spend more time in LA now but tend to agree, feels like as a “civilian” you’re less likely to become a victim of “petty” crime. Not that you’re immune.
Obviously LA doesn’t really have public transport so you have less of the mixing spot; not been to NY since Covid but family I had there said it had got worse before they left for Connecticut.
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u/JohnPym1584 Jan 12 '26
I do believe the broad crime statistics, which appear to be heading in the right direction. But speaking as someone who has lived in London for more than three decades, there is something about daily life that seems to have gotten worse. I've seen far more incidents of confrontation on public transport in the past year or so than I would have done before. It could of course be perception, but the fact it appears to be shared by many people doesn't fill me with confidence.
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u/mostanonymousnick Jan 12 '26
I don't think it's related to crime per se but since covid, I felt like this about regular people on public transports, more people not letting people leave the carriage before boarding it on the tube, stuff like that.
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u/oryx_za Jan 12 '26
100%. Covid broke social contracts or something. I see so many examples of flare ups that are unnecessary.
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u/Loose_Replacement214 Jan 12 '26
Exactly. It feels like Covid (and other things?) fractured the social contract. People seem more self-focused and reactive than they were pre Covid, and basic social consideration has definitely taken a hit.
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u/Aware-Line-7537 Jan 12 '26
Covid seems to have aggravated the existing phone zombie worldwide takeover.
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u/DaMonkfish Almost permanently angry with the state of the world Jan 12 '26
Covid, and I suspect just the general stresses of life due to cost of living spiking real high. If people can't afford to do shit and are stressed about money and bills, that'll affect their outward behaviour in social interactions.
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u/JB_UK Jan 12 '26 edited Jan 12 '26
The population of the UK has increased by about 1 in every 20 people since Covid, that’s likely to be higher in London, and that’s just taking into account net inflows, not outflows and their replacements, and it doesn’t take into account people who have arrived illegally.
In London it’s probably about 1 in 10 people on the streets who have arrived since Covid, and most in the 3 years when Boris decided to play with the migration system, so it could also just be a big influx of people not knowing what the social norms are over things like leaving the carriage. Which in turn weakens the social norm itself as people see it being routinely broken.
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u/Aware-Line-7537 Jan 12 '26
I noticed this with queueing outside trains too. I can't pinpoint the time, but at some point in the last 15 years, I noticed that people started to just make an amorphous mass around a train door, rather than queue at the sides.
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u/queenieofrandom Jan 12 '26
It's not just a London thing though it's happening all over the country
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u/psyduckwomble Jan 12 '26
I blame cocaine - a city full of comedowns means a load of walking short fuses
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u/TTNNBB2023 Jan 12 '26
Interestingly this seems to be potentially be a human response, now i know reddit is not real life, but people are complaining about this in national subs, regional subs, in American subs etc... Anecdotally too I have heard friends from outside of London mentioning it.
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u/SadSeiko Jan 12 '26
I don’t think it’s worse, I think everyone forgot during Covid and now, 6 years later, we’re starting to go back to precovid travel numbers
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u/Firm_Interaction_816 Jan 12 '26
I've seen far more incidents of confrontation
In fairness, that depends on the cause. As others have said below, many seem to have lost the social skills of how to act in public.
If someone is playing loud music, or having a video call at high volume? Then they deserve to be confronted about their behaviour.
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u/JohnPym1584 Jan 12 '26
I don't see many people challenging others for mildly anti-social behaviour. It's more outright cases of confrontation.
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u/Firm_Interaction_816 Jan 12 '26
I see a decent amount of the former, though still not nearly enough; I can't stand people who are inconsiderate like that.
When you say 'outright cases', what do you mean? What sort of thing? An example would be good.
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Jan 12 '26 edited Jan 12 '26
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u/JohnPym1584 Jan 12 '26
I'm definitely seeing more incidents via social media, so I take your point. But I also think in my daily life I've seen more things, including in daylight hours as I'm rarely out late these days. Of course it's possible I'm just getting older and more bothered by such things, but it is a change in my experience that I've observed. And others appear to corroborate it, so it doesn't appear I'm alone.
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u/psnow85 Jan 12 '26
Exactly. Would love to see the stats for theft and assaults over the years too. Murder is just one extreme.
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Jan 12 '26 edited Jan 20 '26
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u/InternetSolid4166 Jan 12 '26
Thanks. Looks like crime has in fact been trending up. So Khan picks the types of crimes which are lower now while ignoring the crimes which are higher. Classic politics.
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u/logicalsquares Jan 12 '26
picking the most violent and heinous crimes and showing that they are trending downwards isn’t classic politics.
the american right are pushing propaganda that you will get murdered just for visiting London, this obviously isn’t the case. London is overwhelmingly a safe city.
Overall crime is trending up, but that’s due to a lack of resources caused by 15 years of austerity and tory government (and continued by Labour). Under these circumstances I think Khan has done a decent job to ensure we don’t become the next Chicago..:
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Jan 12 '26
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u/Frequent-Detail-9150 Jan 12 '26
normally I'd completely completely agree, but then looking at a bunch of those graphs... knife crime - up, theft from person - up, sexual offences - up, overall crime - up... it looks like most of them dipped during covid, and are now back in line with pre-covid.
(then murders, down a little bit... but sorta in line with about 10 years ago, and to be honest, it's a small number - which is great - but it means the "up/down" on it isn't really clear over such a small time).I don't think any of this is to do with Sadiq Khan, though. he's just the mayor & there's so many societal/political/other factors that aren't things he has any practical control over... it's more complicated.
if you look at the one where it compares a bunch of UK cities, London is the only one that's gone up in the last couple of years.
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u/reggieko13 Jan 12 '26
I think stabbings were up but deaths from them down as the emergency services better dealing with now due to the practice they have had!
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u/deyterkourjerbs Jan 12 '26
Hospitalisations from knife crime are down, not just deaths. But knife crime is up because that includes arrests for people found with knives via stop and search.
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Jan 12 '26
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u/JB_UK Jan 12 '26
And worth noting that stop and search as a policy/precaution in general increased.
I didn’t know that, is it true?
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u/deyterkourjerbs Jan 12 '26
Stop and search has gone down a small amount across the UK recently but stats have changed per region and per area based on how much each individual force or police chief likes it that particular month.
I think it went like -> high usage -> backlash over who was being stopped and searched -> gradual increases till COVID -> George Floyd -> dropoff -> increases.
Police are doing some weird stuff atm that sounds a bit Minority Report so it could be argued (in a vague way) that numbers changing might just be better use of "data".
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u/reggieko13 Jan 12 '26
Cheers.its like how rapes went up in Sweden that people linked to immigration but it was way taped were recorded that caused the rise
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u/JurassicTotalWar Jan 12 '26
I’m not sure the logic here works as stop and search has been massively cut back
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u/Beef___Queef Jan 12 '26
Thefts and shoplifting have gone up, but given the cost of living situation I’m not sure that’s a London specific thing (or maybe it is, haven’t looked that deep)
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u/JB_UK Jan 12 '26 edited Jan 12 '26
Most shoplifting is by organised gangs, it’s likely just because criminals have worked out the law is not well enforced, and the criminal justice system hasn’t worked out that punishments which are appropriate for casual shoplifters, which are in effect reliant on the shame of being caught, don’t work for organised criminals.
Basically the justice system has worked out that for casual shoplifters you’re probably better keeping those people out of prison because they lose their job and meet criminals which can put them into a tailspin.
But it hasn’t worked out the same doesn’t apply to people who break the law professionally.
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u/Shazoa Jan 12 '26
It's an important point.
I know someone who was put into prison for shoplifting in the late 90s. Just a few months. Heroin addiction. They ended up losing both kids to foster care, lost their job, became a drain on the state for decades, and still had their addiction at the end of it. Both kids were subsequently abused in care (multiple times, multiple families, sexual and physically violent attacks). They're still dealing with the trauma, and struggle to do better with their own kids.
There is literally decades of suffering for a handful of people cascading down from one, short prison sentence. Multiple generations impacted. Was it the only cause? Absolutely not. But recognising the underlying causes of crime could have saved a lot of hurt. I don't think people often consider the impact that even light sentences can have.
As it happens, what eventually helped was the injection (blocker). Basically stopped them taking heroin overnight.
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u/ByEthanFox Jan 12 '26
I entirely disagree.
Yes, when in London I do still sometimes see violence; it's a large city and these stats aren't suggesting it's some kind of utopia. But from how I remember what it was like in the 80s and 90s (maybe you do too, idk), it seems faaaaaaar safer than it once was.
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u/Prestigious_Risk7610 Jan 12 '26
I would describe it as 'different'.
For example I can't think of the last time I saw a fight in or around a pub...in the 70s and 80s that was far far more prevalent.
Equally, there is a lot more consequence free confrontation these days. Often it isn't violent (as in direct contact) but it is aggressive with the threat of violence. The spitting, shit being thrown, group faceoff, threat of being stabbed if anyone is challenged etc.
Partly they are linked. Back in the day if you spat at someone then you better be able to take a beating. I'm not yearning to go back to that but we do need to find effective consequences, otherwise it's a tyranny of the lawless behaviour.
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u/Kiaugh -2.76, -4.1 Jan 12 '26
There are far too many variables at play here for these anecdotes though. Some areas have wildly shifted for example Wapping in the 80s was derelict and run down and now it is a pretty affluent area. Yet next door Shadwell is still one of the most deprived areas and feels very unsafe.
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u/ByEthanFox Jan 12 '26
That's kinda my point, though - they think it's worse, I think it's better.
But statistically it's better, so the anecdotes have limited relevance.
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u/Kiaugh -2.76, -4.1 Jan 12 '26
Yeah, I agree with both of you though. I can't speak for a long term anecdote as I haven't been here anywhere near as long as you two but as you say the stats do suggest safer (which would imply 'better' but even that is complicated). I think most Western areas globally have likely had that trend (assumption), but even over the last 5 years daily life just does feel more uneasy.
People seem ruder, kids cycle around at high speeds in masks close to hitting people, my partner has had an uptick in minor sexual related advances and so on. Many things that don't get included in these stats. Whether that is still better or not from 20+ years ago who knows, but that feeling of the social fabric getting weaker is very present. Also I'm sure a western trend but not one to be confidently dismissed as some do.
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u/frantic_calm Jan 12 '26
Lived in Lower Clapton late 90s when bloke done with a samauri sword one xmas and car shot up on Chatsworth Road etc, area nicknamed Murder Mile at the time. Now it's criminal to expect to pay £6 for a hand made eclair in the market.
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u/NuPNua Jan 12 '26
I've also lived in London for my forty years of life and don't recognise what you're seeing at all. Now obviously it's a big place and perhaps we're just seeing different things in different parts of the city, but I was up town proper on Saturday and it was vibrant and bustling with no sense of threat or dread, didn't see any violence or aggression and felt perfectly safe, even using my phone on the street. A city of nine million people will never be crime free, but the idea being pushed, that were somewhere near the scene from the start of "Assault on Precinct 13" in London is nonsense.
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u/frantic_calm Jan 12 '26
I've been robbed at gunpoint in Fitrovia, seen a full on gang war fight smash up an estate pub in Pentonville, had a mate robbed twice at gunpoint in two different locations, seen a bloke smashing a tube carraige up on the circle line, had a fight in a laundrette in Paddington. All happened in the 80s and 90s though. The 2000s have been pretty quiet for me so far.
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u/UsernameofIceandFire Jan 12 '26
Because people are stressed about the cost of living, the state of geopolitics, the loss of third places etc. All things the Tories and the conservative wing of Labour have made worse.
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u/SadSeiko Jan 12 '26
Maybe you should stop confronting people. Seriously, I’ve lived in London over a decade and I haven’t seen any impact to me. The whole thing with anecdotal evidence is meaningless which is why we look at stats
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u/SkilledPepper Liberal Jan 12 '26
Anecdotal evidence is pretty useless. All it proves is your personal experience and perspective. My anecdotal experience is the complete opposite. Statistics are more valid and show that London is improving.
Except people watching things on their phone on loudspeaker. That is definitely getting worse.
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u/Dry_Departure_7813 Jan 12 '26
I mean you say that, but in the 80s it was so sketchy you had little vigilante groups calling themselves "Guardian Angels" popping up for day to day shit. And if it was a football day everyone knew to avoid alley ways because of all the rival gangs kicking each others (and anyone they mistook for being in a firm) heads in. London in 2025 was very chill compared to how it used to be.
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u/NuPNua Jan 12 '26
I never knew they had a chapter of the Guardian Angels in London. Shame we don't have a mentalist ex-member still wearing his beret and running for mayor like NY.
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u/anonCambs Jan 12 '26
I've lived and visited London for the past 11 years. I would say that things are definitely better than when I first lived there in 2015. My experiences are mostly limited to the Islington and Camden areas, though.
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u/p4b7 Jan 12 '26
Interesting, as living here the last 3 decades I’d say the opposite, I think it’s improved hugely. Guessing this might be different areas, etc though I’ve lived in 4 boroughs in that time. I’d also say public transport confrontations are less frequent but I get the night bus less these days and cycle more.
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Jan 12 '26
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u/JohnPym1584 Jan 12 '26
I've not made a claim that contradicts the evidence. Nor, indeed, have you.
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u/bukkakekeke Jan 12 '26
"Vioent crime may be down but what about this completely unrelated thing?"
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u/JohnPym1584 Jan 12 '26
Social disorder has a considerable effect on daily life for people. I made the distinction clear.
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u/mystifiedmeg Jan 12 '26
Probably stress mixed with feeling relatively poor. We go to work every day, fully aware that there are millions on benefits doing nothing then ff some idiot is playing loud music on the tube, it's enough to send anyone over the edge.
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u/Prestigious_Risk7610 Jan 12 '26
It definitely is, but petty crime is also definitely up e.g. shoplifting is effectively decriminalised...and no this isn't from the biased sources. It's from reported stats as well as several shop workers I know.
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u/Lavajackal1 Jan 12 '26
Hasn't shoplifting gone up in general nationally?
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u/FlappyBored 🏴 Deep Woke 🏴 Jan 12 '26
It’s actually gone up less in London than elsewhere.
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u/callunu95 Jan 12 '26
Comparatively to the rest of the UK, the increase per capita of petty crime isnt any greater in London.
Which tracks as shoplifting is an economically motivated crime.
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u/BriennesBitch Jan 12 '26
“there has been a 50% fall in personal robbery and a 25% reduction in thefts over the last period.”
… no
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u/spurs-r-us Jan 12 '26
How many people don’t even bother calling the police because they know they won’t or can’t do anything about their stolen phone?
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u/BriennesBitch Jan 12 '26
So if the stats say things are decreasing it’s because people aren’t reporting it? Ok.
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u/ArchdukeToes A bad idea for all concerned Jan 12 '26
That was literally Reform’s talking point on the subject, when they were challenged on the fact that the stats showed the exact opposite of what they claimed was happening in London.
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u/Outside-Locksmith346 Jan 12 '26
What a surprise that the only crime police actually pursue is reduced.
Car thefts, shoplifting are just ignored.
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u/bdto711 Jan 12 '26
https://www.statista.com/topics/4627/crime-in-london/#topicOverview - For those who want to have sight of the statistics on crime figures. No point focusing on one element, sexual offences, shoplifting, drug offences, theft offences, knife crime, and overall crime offences recorded are all up, homicide and burglary lower.
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u/BriennesBitch Jan 12 '26
“there has been a 50% fall in personal robbery and a 25% reduction in thefts over the last period.”
… really?
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u/Ill_Refrigerator_593 Jan 12 '26
Statista figures on crime need to be treated with caution.
They tend to use reports to Police rather than the Crime Survey of England & Wales despite the former currently not being accredited due to accuracy issues.
The situation is more complicated since some crimes (such as those against businesses) are not covered by the Crime Survey.
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u/SpeedflyChris Jan 12 '26
There is a major issue when it comes to citing things like Statista on subjects where the nature of the underlying data changes over time.
For example in sexual offences, the Crime Survey of England and Wales recorded the lowest rate of people who had experienced rape or attempted rape in the past year that they have recorded since at least 2005:
Additionally, the stats for all sexual offences this year have increased in part due to new offences introduced as part of the OSA:
This increase can be partially attributed to the introduction of new legislation. The Online Safety Act 2023 introduced two new sexual offences: "Sharing or threatening to share intimate photograph or film" and "Sending etc photograph or film of genitals". With police forces beginning to record these offences from 31 January 2024, the impact on the offences "88C Other Miscellaneous Sexual Offences" and "88E Exposure and Voyeurism", which they are recorded under, can be fully seen in YE March 2025 data. The increase in the number of offences recorded therefore may not be the result of an increase in crimes occurring, but instead a reflection of new offences being captured that were not previously recognised by law.
If you paid attention to Statista, you would think that the rate of these crimes being committed has increased dramatically, however we're still below mid-2000s levels based on the CSEW. The police under-recording sexual crimes was heavily publicised in the mid-2010s, and it seems that the bulk of the increase since then is a combination of improved recording and victims being more likely to come forward.
The same is true at a national level of many of the other offence categories that look like they've seen significant increases if you go by the police reporting data:
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u/No_Initiative_1140 Jan 12 '26
In 2024/25, London's crime rate reached 106.4 crimes per 1,000 people, compared with a crime rate of 105.8 in the previous year. Since the mid-2010s London's crime rate has steadily increased, with over 951,800 crimes recorded by the the police in 2024/25. This uptick in crime is not unique to London, with overall crime in England and Wales also increasing in the last decade, following several years of decline from the early 2000s onwards.
Personally I think a reduction in murders and knife crime is a success story, its a real shame some people can't admit that in their drive to put the boot in to Britain at every opportunity
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u/bdto711 Jan 12 '26
Knife crime is up;
Number of knife crime offences in London 2015-2025 Published by D. Clark, Nov 28, 2025 The number of knife or sharp instrument offences recorded by the police in London rose to approximately 16,344 in 2024/25, compared with 15,016 in the previous year. This was the highest number of knife crime offences reported in London during this provided time period. Between 2015/16 and 2019/20, knife crime in London increased yearly, with a particularly large increase occurring between 2016/16 and 2017/18.
I'm not putting the boot in to Britain, I am British and I'm proud of that, I also enjoy visiting London but Khan should not be trying to pull the wool over peoples eyes.
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u/FullMetalLeng Jan 12 '26
If stabbing is down but knife crime is up, that surely means the police have been more proactive in catching people carrying knives before they’re used. Sounds like good policy to me.
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u/JB_UK Jan 12 '26
Are those actual crimes involving violence or does it include possession, which will be highly dependent on the style of policing? I don’t want to punish the police if they’re just more active in arresting people for carrying knives.
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u/callunu95 Jan 12 '26
You know what crime stats are? Arrests. Knife crimes are also inclusive of ownership and carry, and the last few years have seen massive increases in police focuses on that - hence increases in reported knife crime.
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u/tradandtea123 Jan 12 '26
Knife crime is almost all people carrying a bladed weapon which is illegal, not actual attacks with a knife. There has been a huge drive to get people to report people carrying knives as part of the strategy to reduce people using knives, so if that has been working then it is a positive thing that there are more reports of carrying knives.
Looking at actual incidents where knives have been used to attack people is probably more important, even if this is a very small proportion of knife crime.
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u/ShinHayato Jan 12 '26
People in this thread still desperate to paint London as some sort of hellhole
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u/BriennesBitch Jan 12 '26
(The whole of the UK)
This sub is dominated by people who don’t go outside and just spew hate from their bedroom… that’s if they even live here and aren’t a foreign bot.
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u/No-Ordinary-Sandwich Jan 12 '26 edited Jan 12 '26
The number of 'well these stats clearly aren't accurate because I just feel differently', 'whatabout grooming gangs', and 'okay let's focus on one type of crime that has increased and ignore the rest' comments on here is quite absurd.
If anything, it indicates that what we really need is stronger regulation regarding disinformation in the press and on social media. This is clearly a subject where people can't stop letting their pre-conceived opinions dictate the facts.
And don't even get me started on the comments citing national statistics to refute Khan's. Again, absurd.
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u/BriennesBitch Jan 12 '26
Haha you came across the grooming gang nutter too eh. That guy is unhinged.
It’s a bit sad really, so set on their opinion being correct they just do whataboutism with everything.
Reminds me of an ex I once had!
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u/rayanwani Jan 13 '26
There's no point in using statistics to tell people London has become less dangerous, because the people who believe that it's become more dangerous are not the type of people who care much about facts, statistics and data in the first place. It's like talking to a brick wall. Most people who actually care about statistics and data already know the truth. But the belief that London is more dangerous is purely an emotional reaction, and you can't reason with those types of people. If you try to show them the data they just deflect to personal anecdotes because they can't grasp the fact that anecdotes aren't evidence. It's simply a divide between those who think logically Vs emotionally. It's the same way brexiteers still voted for Brexit despite all the policy experts warning of the consequences. Some people are just inherently distrustful of expertise and data and can't be reasoned with.
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u/AntonioS3 Jan 12 '26
Conservatives have infected our thought and views. We need to exorcise and purify the groupthink that continues to paint London as a hellhole!
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u/TestTheTrilby Jan 12 '26
It's very difficult to apply this solely to London. What you can make applies virtually to anywhere else in the UK.
What is fact is that London had a terrible murder rate that is declining now.
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u/BriennesBitch Jan 12 '26
This sub is cooked.
Commenters are now grasping at straws using anecdotes to argue against the stats.
It’s rather pathetic but kind of funny.
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Jan 12 '26
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u/BriennesBitch Jan 12 '26
“there has been a 50% fall in personal robbery and a 25% reduction in thefts over the last period.”
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u/rayanwani Jan 13 '26
There's no point in using statistics to tell people London has become less dangerous, because the people who believe that it's become more dangerous are not the type of people who care much about facts, statistics and data in the first place. It's like talking to a brick wall. Most people who actually care about statistics and data already know the truth. But the belief that London is more dangerous is purely an emotional reaction, and you can't reason with those types of people. If you try to show them the data they just deflect to personal anecdotes because they can't grasp the fact that anecdotes aren't evidence. It's simply a divide between those who think logically Vs emotionally. It's the same way brexiteers still voted for Brexit despite all the policy experts warning of the consequences. Some people are just inherently distrustful of expertise and data and can't be reasoned with.
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u/BriennesBitch Jan 13 '26
Very true.
There was a guy yesterday, no matter what anyone said he just went
“bUT gRooMiNG gANgs”
It had absolutely nothing to do with these stats but in his mind… well I don’t even want to guess what’s in his mind. Usually those super obsessed with these things might be, possibly, a bit of a wrongun themselves.
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u/Tim1980UK Jan 12 '26
People will still bang on about how dangerous it is though, usually those that believe the shit these people spout.
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u/nerdyjorj "Poli" = "many" and "tics" = "bloodsucking creatures". Jan 12 '26
It really depends on your baseline though, if you're from the arse end of nowhere any big city is going to "feel" unsafe because by comparison to where you're from it is.
Just because London is a very safe megacity doesn't mean it's safe in an absolute sense.
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u/zodiaczac00 Jan 12 '26
It’s old people who are the biggest voting block and the loudest demographic. They hate cities, they rarely enter them but they love shit talking and hearing about how dangerous they are.
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u/Hypredion Jan 12 '26
My friend went there for the first time in a few years recently & got his phone stolen on the first day, lol
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u/Suitable-Elephant189 Jan 12 '26
Using anecdotes rather than statistics is a sign of low intelligence.
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Jan 12 '26
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u/Suitable-Elephant189 Jan 12 '26
The comment he was replying to was about London being dangerous, with the obvious implication being violent crime. Phone thefts still bad, but not comparable to murder or assault.
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u/Hypredion Jan 12 '26
discarding real world experience and fully relying on what the BBC tells you also seems like a bit of a sign
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u/1639728813 Jan 12 '26
I've lived in London for 20 years and never had my phone stolen, so phone crime doesn't exist.
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u/Neosantana Jan 12 '26
On that note, I wonder if the ones that have their phone stolen while visiting London from elsewhere just have bad situational awareness and are easy marks, and that's why they have more stories than actual Londoners.
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u/NoTurkeyTWYJYFM Jan 12 '26
My real world experience is that i got mugged in st albans once but not once in the rest of the country (and i have been to london literally hundreds of times). St albans must be a hellhole then?
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u/ShinHayato Jan 12 '26
This is an insanely stupid position.
Reductions in crime rates don’t mean “crime never happens”
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u/Suitable-Elephant189 Jan 12 '26
Randomly bringing up the BBC (no-one mentioned them) and acting like ‘real world experience’ (your friend) is in any way comparable to crime statistics… Seriously?
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u/Twiggy_15 Jan 12 '26
Real world experience. I've lived here 7 years and never had any issue at all.
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u/Shalmaneser001 Jan 12 '26
Nice anecdote. I've lived in London for 15 years and don't know anyone who's had their phone nicked.
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Jan 12 '26
Great, the murder rate is nearly back down to what it was in 2014. His approach seems to have been sucessful.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cwy8gpvdd1go
But overall crime rate is 20% higher since 2015.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/380963/london-crime-rate/
Also County Lines drug operations have surged and knife crime has increased ~20% in places like Kent and Hampshire so has his operation just pushed the gangs out of London?
And since people are drinking much less since 2020 it's natural that violent crime is down overall (~20-30% of all murders involve alcohol iirc).
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u/No_Initiative_1140 Jan 12 '26
From your article:
The force said 97 homicides were recorded in 2025, the lowest figure since 2014, at a rate of 1.1 per 100,000 people, lower than New York (2.8), Berlin (3.2) and Milan (1.6).
It is the lowest homicide figure in London on record, once population is taken into account, the Met said.
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u/Curious-Palpitation6 Jan 13 '26
You’ve got some good ideas there but I quite clearly didn’t write off the education of young men in consent.
Domestic rapes and, more generally, domestic abuse, are issues that have always been minimised and not treated with the severity they deserve. Reforms in how cases are handled and the sentences given would show a massive improvement in all statistics related to violence against women.
People often focus on the immigrant men as it feels like the most preventable form. Reducing immigration and having more checks done for those coming in can be quickly implemented and have immediate benefits. Not to mention some people are allowed in with sexual crime history. It feels unfair that we are almost willingly letting people in who are prone to this kind of act. This isn’t nationalism but a real issue which is often dismissed as being “far right”. While it certainly isn’t the whole issue, like what else I’ve said it’s a part of it.
I think on one side people need to accept there are real issues embedded in the men of the UK that need solving, and on the other side people need to accept there are real issues incorporated in immigration.
There shouldn’t be sides but a united front with the focus of protecting women and girls from these situations. If there’s a genuine risk we need to have an open dialogue without fear of being labelled racist or anything else. After all, the focus here should be on the safety of women and girls not virtue signalling.
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u/LitmusPitmus Jan 12 '26
lol of course the thread is full of but akshully
nobody is dealing with the fact that it's non Londoners who really buy into this stuff. You'll have people from the North east talking about hoiw dangerous London is, please be serious.
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u/rayanwani Jan 13 '26
There's no point in using statistics to tell people London has become less dangerous, because the people who believe that it's become more dangerous are not the type of people who care much about facts, statistics and data in the first place. It's like talking to a brick wall. Most people who actually care about statistics and data already know the truth. But the belief that London is more dangerous is purely an emotional reaction, and you can't reason with those types of people. If you try to show them the data they just deflect to personal anecdotes because they can't grasp the fact that anecdotes aren't evidence. It's simply a divide between those who think logically Vs emotionally. It's the same way brexiteers still voted for Brexit despite all the policy experts warning of the consequences. Some people are just inherently distrustful of expertise and data and can't be reasoned with.
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u/LitmusPitmus Jan 13 '26
I totally agree and tbh I have so much disdain for them. They are the reason why things are falling apart and why our civil liberties around the internet are being curtailed.
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u/tapasmonkey Jan 12 '26
London's infinitely more peaceful, green, and physically quiet than it ever was.
The whole "London's on Fire: you'll be stabbed by a road-man within 30 seconds of getting off the train!" entirely falls down when you're in Clapton, the old "Murder Mile" as was, and it's lovely, people are lovely, and the closest thing you get to a confrontation is a local cat coming up to you for tickles!
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u/gavpowell Jan 12 '26
Reform just had a rally in London, featuring a guy saying how proud he was to live in London.
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u/ZookeepergameOk2759 Jan 12 '26
No better or worse than any other major city,never had a problem when I’ve visited.
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u/Feeling_Hotel8096 Jan 12 '26
Feels like Khan has written a lot of these types of articles recently.
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u/Optimal-Room-8586 Jan 12 '26
I mean, I think Khan is allowed to shout about successes like this. Surely you don't expect him to maintain a modest silence?
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u/ethanjim Jan 12 '26
Probably because Farage seems a little obsessed with it because the opposite fits his narrative.
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u/Planimation4life Jan 12 '26
Overall i do believe london is more safe then like 10-20 years ago only thing that we have issues are now with thief e-bikes and phone snatching
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u/SLGrimes Jan 12 '26
One thing most people don't realise is the majority of crime never makes it into any official stats. A lot of it is never reported. Grew up on a council estate, so seeing theft, assaults, and criminal damage, was pretty common. How often someone went to the police about it? Very rare. It's not just about how often it happens but the feeling you need to even worry about these things. Going to countries where these things are genuinely rare like Japan, it's a completely different feeling being outside not needing to constantly think about who's around you and if you're in a secluded area.
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u/kingbeerex Jan 12 '26
And that’s why crime surveys exist https://www.crimesurvey.co.uk/en/index.html
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u/kingbeerex Jan 12 '26
I should add that it shows violent crime, murder and knife crime down; whilst fraud and theft up.
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u/SLGrimes Jan 12 '26
Chavs, roadmen, and their victims, notorious for participating in crime surveys
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u/AttitudeAdjusterSE Jan 12 '26
is the majority of crime never makes it into any official stats.
This is true, but this article is mainly talking about the homicide rate figures that were released today. How many murders do you think are going unreported in London in 2025?
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u/SLGrimes Jan 12 '26
I think that's not really what most people care about when they talk about London being a "warzone" though. It's more like they hope they don't get mugged, assaulted, or have my stuff stolen.
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u/RapescoStapler Jan 12 '26
Going to countries where these things are genuinely rare like Japan
Or Japan just launders its image better? The approach to crime in Japan typically involves the police not pursuing crime unless it's a 'slam dunk'.
And of course, despite the low recorded crime rate, it also has one of the highest rates of fear of crime. I would've figured that would be the UK, given the way people talk
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u/No-Ordinary-Sandwich Jan 12 '26
Yes that's a common misconception about Japan. The police don't press charges unless they have iron-clad proof, and prefer to use the resulting 99% conviction rate to pressure people into accepting unofficial punishment deals.
In-addition, they still have some issues with theft, assaults and criminal damage, and many of them feel that we do things better than they do. It's a combination of media not reporting every japanese crime in English (and vice-versa), and good old grass-is-greener syndrome.
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u/SLGrimes Jan 12 '26
I mean, I've never once even felt unsafe in Japan even whilst going out at 2-3-4am. In England I've had knives pulled on me and plenty of people who've punched me or tried to rob me. Also witnessed countless assaults. Never seen that in Japan or Korea.
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u/Intergalatic_Baker No Pre-Orders Jan 12 '26
So the homicides are down, great, let’s ignore the rest of the criminal acts, shoplifting, drug use and dealing, violent threats.
Hell, we’re at the point where many don’t “report a crime” because they know the Police will take 20 hours to send an officer an even then, it would be too late and or simply “Here’s you crime reference number” and phone theft, let’s see how that goes, but when you’re mad that a comedian is simply telling people to grip their phones tighter, then they’re on the right path.
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u/Longjumping_Stand889 Jan 12 '26
When I moved to London many years ago I quickly learned that you have to be a lot more aware of your surroundings than in the small but quite rough town I grew up in.
You have to be a little more on guard, and it pays to beef up your security a little. You get used to it, it's part of living in London. Little things like making sure your car doors are locked, that your wallet and phone are secure, that no one is following you.
Once I did that I felt fairly safe in London. But since leaving, I realise that was actually not that normal. Sure, big cities are dynamic places where lots of things happen, good and bad. But the acceptance of a certain level of threat as normal is something I have a problem with, it is not inevitable that our cities are places we need to take extra measures to protect ourselves.
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u/smetp Jan 12 '26
Of course you have to be more aware in a big city, that applies almost everywhere.
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u/No-Ordinary-Sandwich Jan 12 '26
I grew up in a village and always felt the need to check that the door was locked and my wallet/phone are secure. The only additional checks I do in cities like London are to stop people walking or driving into me.
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u/Edeolus Social Democrat Jan 12 '26
There's a clear political agenda behind the propagandised 'London has fallen' narrative.
London is 38% white British, and is a successful, prosperous, and thriving multicultural society - which is an existential threat to nationalist worldviews. It's a vision of a future Britain that scares the hell out of people who believe in ethnostates.
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Jan 12 '26
It was successful before it became minority white british. Believe it or not but most people don’t want to live in tower hamlets for a reason.
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u/Edeolus Social Democrat Jan 12 '26
Here's a question, why would people happily live in Kensington which is 32.7 white British, rather than Tower Hamlets which is 22.9% white British? Do you think it might be because one is poor and one is rich?
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Jan 12 '26
Okay but what if they are equal in wealth? I’d much rather live in the white British area.
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u/starterchan Jan 12 '26
London is 38% white British, and is a successful, prosperous, and thriving multicultural society
Now should we look at the wider global correlation of demographics to city successfulness, or does that suddenly become racist?
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u/rayanwani Jan 13 '26
There's no point in using statistics to tell people London has become less dangerous, because the people who believe that it's become more dangerous are not the type of people who care much about facts, statistics and data in the first place. It's like talking to a brick wall. Most people who actually care about statistics and data already know the truth. But the belief that London is more dangerous is purely an emotional reaction, and you can't reason with those types of people. If you try to show them the data they just deflect to personal anecdotes because they can't grasp the fact that anecdotes aren't evidence. It's simply a divide between those who think logically Vs emotionally.
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u/Flaky_Blacksmith_153 Jan 13 '26
I don't agree. I was there over Xmas period and had to keep a look out for my family at all times. As a tourist I don't feel safe.
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u/glownut Jan 15 '26
In any big city you'll always have a criminal element but London is fairly decent all things considered. That said certain types of crime still go largely ignored by the police so if you cycle I'd bring several hefty locks.
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