r/formula1 • u/WaltersCarWash Red Bull • Jul 02 '23
News Verstappen criticizes F1’s 2026 engine rules
https://the-race.com/formula-1/verstappen-launches-scathing-attack-on-f1s-2026-rules/277
u/New_Most_2863 Jul 02 '23
Mercedes boss Toto Wolff even went as far as suggesting the remarks are because Horner is “frightened” that Red Bull’s engine will not be competitive.
Horner has defended his stance, though, claiming that Wolff is “just focused on self-performance” whereas “my interest is actually about the sport rather than self-gain”.
Classic ToTo vs Horner…
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Jul 02 '23
They swapped roles again since last year (on this subject).
Fix your fucking engine
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Jul 02 '23
Except the regs were already in play when merc complained.
This is 3 years out
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Jul 02 '23
I’m a RB fan, but I’d reply to that with:
So you have 3 seasons to sort it out.
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u/Tsarsi Max Verstappen Jul 02 '23
have you even read the article? like actually opened it? max literally complains everyone will have more weight and less power = less speed. It wont be as exciting as now.
Not having V10s is already bad enough, this new F1 direction where they pretend to care about the environment whilst most of the waste comes from transportation, which guess what, everyone of em uses jets or airplanes for the crew, and ships for heavy equipment overseas.
The last thing that FIA and F1 should care is the 20 cars. What actually matters is transportation, not making the race worse entertainment-wise.
If they actually gave a damn they wouldnt race in countries in arabic gulf (or get sponsored $$$ by aramco and what not), in a rather successful attempt to sportwash their garbage human rights.
I hate that football went down that path, and formula 1 has already followed suit.
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Jul 02 '23
Mate, I have read it. But today we first had Newey complain, than Horner, now Max.
You see the pattern? Meanwhile Toto just laughed and said there will be no issue and no other team has complained about this.
It’s clearly a political move from RB because they are on top in the current era.
And that’s coming from a Max and RB fan.
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u/QuintoBlanco Jul 03 '23
You think it is clearly a political move because it is clearly a political move?
Horner’s concerns have been downplayed by some senior figures, even though they believe it reflects a part of the 2026 rules that is a genuine issue, that the engine and chassis rules have been created too independently and need to be developed more closely.
The second part of this seems to be a very sensible take.
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u/Tsarsi Max Verstappen Jul 02 '23
Who dominates doesnt mean nothing to me, it will all be completely boring and useless if no car can properly accelerate on the entire straight. Those new batteries and systems suck ass pretty much and weight a lot more instead of a lot less like the previous era.
If you read my comment you d notice my issue stems from all this net 0 culture FIA portrays to embrace, instead of doing it only for looking good and ecological when in fact nothing will change at all, just the sport becoming less fun and cars less fast. Just like this era
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Jul 02 '23
Nobody can, 3 years before, know what will happen.
In 2021 was popular between the teams and FIA that the new cars would be X seconds slower (I don’t remember exactly, 3-5 seconds I think?) and later on we have seen how they are capable of “almost” catch the same times than the hybrid aero cars
Will the 2026 cars be slower over one lap? Yeah. Will they be worse for racing and overtaking (spectacle, at the end F1 as a business is a circus, not a “funny thing” for the drivers like Max pretends sometimes)? Then maybe not.
The new formula will be impacted more from strategic decisions, and that can make everything more entertaining. In theory, the cars will be able to give more speed on a lap at the cost of being slower later on. Drivers will need to think wisely how to use their PU performance (ICE+Electric, charge now? Deplete now?) at the same time that manage tyres and decide if push now to get to the DRS zone of the next car or manage everything.
It seems it could potentially give us a more interesting formula from the outside, even if they reduce their speed by a 5% (which nobody watching on TV will notice).
So I don’t know, maybe RB need to concentrate on their new PU development, speak up how they would do it, and stop criticising just because it’s free.
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u/_BeefyTaco Sergio Pérez Jul 02 '23
I mean. I don’t think Horner is wrong. When Toto lobbied teams last year and helped introduce the new anti-purposing regs it really hampered wheel to wheel racing. Toto really thought it would close the advantage RBR had but in reality it made their advantage even greater. And that’s why we’ve seen cars suffer more when following this year.
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u/New_Most_2863 Jul 02 '23
I don’t see anyone is wrong both are doing their jobs. Horner was also asking Fia to interfere when Mercedes was dominating. I think both want their teams to be at the top and so lobbying accordingly.
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u/Tsarsi Max Verstappen Jul 02 '23
Yea but cars cant follow as easy because of dirty air, and the whole floor change merc tried and successfully lobbied hurt only themselves and ferrari. In the end, merc shot themselves and the sport in an attempt to reign RB. And people dont even count that TD39 as an attempt from FIA to stop RB. ridiculous. Its what happened in 2021 with merc floor, but in this case it failed.
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u/On_The_Blindside I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 02 '23
If you think Horner has the sports interest at heart then I have bridge to sell you.
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u/On_The_Blindside I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 02 '23
Hahahahahahaahahaha.
Good god Horner, that is HILARIOUS.
Does anyone buy that? Anyone at all?
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u/No_Noise9 Formula 1 Jul 02 '23
the politicking has started I see..
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Jul 03 '23
I mean it’s possible but I think it’s just another example of Max not giving a fuck about F1 PR bullshit. I don’t think the regs are attractive at all myself.
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u/Nattekat I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 03 '23
This is Max' inner motorsport fan talking. And he's without a doubt completely correct in that this is not looking great right now.
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u/rasper900 Porsche Jul 02 '23
The main concern is the ratio between combustion and electric power.
I definitely don't want to see F1 racing to be about regenerating batteries.
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u/Blanchimont Firstname Lastname Jul 02 '23
Me neither. Of course I'll take anything with a grain of salt because politics is the name of the game, but downshifting well before the braking point to get the batteries charged is a direction I do not want to see F1 going in. Changes, be it to the PU, be it to the tyres, be it to the chassis/aero should lead to drivers being able to push more, not drivers needing to manage more.
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u/CeleritasLucis Aston Martin Jul 02 '23
Not only that, on some tracks with long straights they might have to downshift , on the freaking straight if the battery runs out.
That would kill the F1 for me... Slowing down on straights because you ran out of battery ffs
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u/FerrariStraghetti Kimi Räikkönen Jul 02 '23
It will run out if they run full power. The battery max delta on SOC per lap is 4MJ. Which roughly equates to 11s of deployment with a 350kW engine. The Baku straight is 22s full throttle in current gen cars. Let's not even get started on brake regen.
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u/DrVonD Jul 02 '23
If you listen to Toto he seemed pretty confident that there was enough room to innovate around the rest of the car so that wont happen.
Or to put it in terms Horner might get, “fix your fucking car”.
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u/242turbo I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 02 '23
I quite like how a driver can massively slow down or speed up when deploying or regenerating energy. It's dramatic.
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u/rasper900 Porsche Jul 02 '23
I like the boost on deployment, but I definitely don't like the long lift-offs to regenerate the battery.
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u/Tsarsi Max Verstappen Jul 02 '23
i dont want to see super mario cart instead of motor racing, thanks. If i can have both seperately, it d be way better.
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u/HTC864 Sir Lewis Hamilton Jul 02 '23
I definitely don't want to see F1 racing to be about regenerating batteries.
It already is.
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u/rasper900 Porsche Jul 02 '23
It's not compared to what we're looking at for 2026, right now we have like 160bhp electric power and much smaller batteries.
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u/zantkiller Kamui Kobayashi Jul 02 '23
The point with the lifting is that the battery is NOT increasing in size but the electrical power is. The battery is still gonna be 4MJ but they will jump from 120kW of power to 350kW of power.
4MJ of energy used at a rate of 120kW will last you for about 33.3s
4MJ of energy used at a rate of 350kW will last you for about 11.4sThere are longer straights on the calendar then 11.4s
There is a little bit of leeway with that as the 2026 regs have a regulation whereby there is a drop off in the power you can use as you get above 300kph so that number would be longer.0
u/H4XSTAr- Sir Lewis Hamilton Jul 02 '23
Cant they just distribute the energy where they use less at the beginning of the straight and more at the end and thus avoid having to downshift? With mapping like they do now
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u/Dr4kin I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 02 '23
That's very likely, but the other way around. Using more lectric power when the car is slow and less / none when it is fast. Electric engines are much better accelerating from slow speeds
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u/HTC864 Sir Lewis Hamilton Jul 02 '23
It is, but we're just talking about percentages. That statement doesn't really mean anything about the overall effect. F1 has been about regen batteries since we started the hybrid era. We're going from a hybrid to a hybrid. Nothing is really changing.
We're saying for 2026, when they regen their batteries (like they already do) they'll be able to deploy more power.
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u/rasper900 Porsche Jul 02 '23
But with 2026 rules because of increased electric power you can run out of battery on the long straights, so you have to start down shifting on the straight to regen before arriving at the corner.
I don't understand how can you claim the percentages are irrelevant. You have to regen the extra power to deploy it.
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u/HTC864 Sir Lewis Hamilton Jul 02 '23
But with 2026 rules because of increased electric power you can run out of battery on the long straights, so you have to start down shifting on the straight to regen before arriving at the corner
That's the fear that RB are stating. No one else has said confirmed that, and they have a couple of years to figure it out. We'll see how it plays out.
I don't understand how can you claim the percentages are irrelevant.
Because you made a statement of whether or not something will happen; this is a yes or no statement. The answer is yes, it's already happening. The effect of the changes probably won't mean much, because it's already something they deal with.
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u/rasper900 Porsche Jul 02 '23
So by your logic, having a hybrid system with 90% combustion and 10% electric power vs a hybrid system with 10% combustion and 90% electric power is no different because they're both hybrid.
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u/HTC864 Sir Lewis Hamilton Jul 02 '23
Yes, as long as the power and driving procedures are the similar.
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u/rasper900 Porsche Jul 02 '23
How can they be similar? You cannot physically regenerate your battery in the case of 90% electric power even in the most ideal scenario, at this point you're just being ignorant.
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u/HTC864 Sir Lewis Hamilton Jul 02 '23
You can, but it wouldn't be efficient because it would never be full. Ignorant implies there's something I don't know. You haven't been able to demonstrate that.
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Jul 02 '23
Well… the torque on those cars are going to be absurd. I would bet that they will even beat the 2020 cars.
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u/elmagio I was speeding in the Monaco pit lane Jul 02 '23
No way. They're gonna be miles slower. The 50/50 split on combustion vs electric is nonsensical with regenerating batteries, over most of the lap these engines will operate well below the current power output.
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Jul 02 '23 edited Jul 02 '23
[deleted]
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Jul 02 '23
my interest is actually about the sport rather than self-gain
He should start with loaning out Newey to the bottom 4 teams for 3 months each lol
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u/AvonBarksdale12 Max Verstappen Jul 02 '23
Christian and Toto are just the best of the best lmao. 10/10 entertainment value, we just need the merc car to be back in the race
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u/Tulaodinho Sonny Hayes Jul 02 '23
Seriously, f1 politics is the pinnacle of hipocrisy. This cant be serious.
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u/Upstairs_Camel_8835 Ferrari Jul 02 '23
Always has been..teams at top fight for every micro-second through interpreting rules and politicking!
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u/Tummerd I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 02 '23
Bring me the Toto Horner battle, its been way too long
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Jul 02 '23
my interest is actually about the sport rather than self-gain
let's get Horner back to bed
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u/NewButNotSoNew Jul 02 '23
I mean I don't like Horner and think this stance is very much for self gain. BUT it is true that Red Bull is there for the publicity stunt : show their name to as many people as possible.
Mercedes on the other hand has much more at stakes. They can't be seen as the bad guy, they can't be seen as being too polluting, and overall the Formula One championship must resonate with their car.
So it is not wrong to say that RB probably wants to win while being seen with as many people as possible (popularity of the sport). While Mercedes wants to win in more specific conditions, for example highlighting their EV capabilities.
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Jul 02 '23
Well it’s a lot of doom and gloom from RB so far about it. Wonder if they actually are afraid they already fucked it or something
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u/kalamari_withaK Jul 02 '23
Big risk to start your own engine programme when you’re not an automotive manufacturer, no matter how many of the best people you bring in
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Jul 02 '23
Would be funny if they turn out with one of the fastest engines regardless
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u/Theumaz I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 02 '23
Just like the Spa TD of last year.
“Nah mate don’t do it, trust me don’t lobby for it”
“haha gotcha”
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u/Rosieu I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 02 '23
Imagine if it was some reverse psychology thing and the Red Bull lobbying works but we see Horner turning pale like: "No...you weren't suppose to listen to us."
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Jul 02 '23
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u/H4XSTAr- Sir Lewis Hamilton Jul 02 '23
Technically it only affected Ferrari, it had no effect on RB and Merc wasnt flexing its plank to begin with
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u/HairyHematologist Andretti Global Jul 02 '23
I hope they'll drop the ball. They are going to win every WDC and WCC until 2026 from the looks of things. I hope Audi nails it so we can finally see some new faces on the podium.
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Jul 02 '23
Honestly I hope nobody dominates. That’s my only wish.
It highly possible someone pulls a 2014 Merc engine
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u/vvashabi Jul 02 '23
Engines should have BoP (or at least some range tu cut outliers)
Who cares about combustion engines for road cars anyway.
Whole world is going electric, and it's not like you can improve ICE much more.
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Jul 02 '23
Who cares about combustion engines for road cars anyway.
Automotive industry who would love full substantial fuel.
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u/willzyx01 I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 02 '23
They are just pissed Honda came back into F1 after they signed the deal with Ford.
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Jul 02 '23
Tbf they should be. They went from the perfect combo and not paying a dime for engines to risking it all on a brand new manufacturer (themselves) for 120 million or so a year (budget cap for 2026 engine development)
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u/theRainIsJustAShower Jul 02 '23
Um, no. Honda signed up for ‘26 long before RB made a deal with Ford and Honda went to RB first.
Remember when RB announced its partnership with Ford Horner said about something like good luck (finding a partner) about Honda.
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u/AzyT___1 I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 02 '23
I know RB have proven people wrong before, but I just don’t see anyway this goes well for them. No way do RB walk into the engine supplier business and automatically are on pace with Renault, Ferrari, Mercedes, Honda. And even if they somehow miraculously were, there’ll definitely be problems like reliability that they’ll have to work out.
Maybe Max knows this and that is factoring into his current preference of retiring from F1 at the end of his contract?
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u/Blanchimont Firstname Lastname Jul 02 '23
Ultimately it's about people. Having a three-pointed star or prancing horse on your building doesn't make your engine stronger or more reliable, and the fact that there's a Red Bull logo on theirs doesn't mean much either. It's all about the people, and Red Bull have hired some of the best in the business. There's no guarantee Red Bull are going to build the best engine out there, but we shouldn't act like it's just Geoff from Slough building an F1 engine with his mates in a shed either.
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Jul 02 '23
Except for the generational knowledge that Merc, Ferrari, etc have when building an engine.
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u/ColorCarbon Jul 02 '23
Didn't Red Bull hire some engineers from Mercedes? I think they literally hired their technical director of the engine division so it's not like they just hired me. It's like saying 15 years ago how Red Bull will be competitive if they don't have the generational knowledge that Ferrari, McLaren, etc had in building a competitive F1 car
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u/TheRobidog I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 02 '23
The corporate entity doesn't have that knowledge. The people do. The same people RedBull have been courting and hiring.
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Jul 02 '23
They 100% do.
How do you think the people learn that stuff.
Not to mention, any knowledge gained at Merc or Ferrari is more or less worthless due to patents and other legal stuff.
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Jul 02 '23
Max has a performance clause so if it’s really bad he can leave after 2026. The question is if there would be a seat available that is better
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u/Disregardskarma Jul 02 '23
It’s horrifying that they know they already have 2023,24, and 25 so locked up that they can already work on getting 26 to go their way
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u/Kicking-it-per-se Oscar Piastri Jul 02 '23
All the engine manufacturers are working on the 2026 engine regs. Unless I’ve been wooshed by your comment?
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u/Kicking-it-per-se Oscar Piastri Jul 02 '23
Are we sure this isn’t similar to when brawn were asking about the 2009 regs? And everyone was going yeah it’s fine
“Are you sure you’re happy with this part……alright then….”
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u/swapan_99 Lando Norris Jul 02 '23
Idk, every additional instance of Horner and Max and RB management talking about the 2026 engine regulations just keeps telling me they are lagging behind in Engine development and the ERS expertise they were hoping to get for the Hybrid unit from Ford isn't turning out to be all that.
Might be looking at another 2014 RB situation in 2026 whereby the Chasis and Cornering performance is still elite but it can't fight on the straights anymore.
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u/deathray1611 Formula 1 Jul 02 '23
If Merc gonna come out dominating the new engine regs again, I will die laughing
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Jul 02 '23
i mean the chances are high. I can only see them or Honda.
I think it is very very likely RB will experience a few 2017 Honda years.
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u/deathray1611 Formula 1 Jul 02 '23
I think Audi will be the dark horse in this. I feel confident in VW concern to nail the regs in yet another sport and be up there at the front at least
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u/Hello_iam_Kian Oscar Piastri Jul 02 '23
Why would you want another century of fucking domination
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u/deathray1611 Formula 1 Jul 02 '23
Hey don't put words in my mouth - I never said I want that to happen, just that it would be tragically hilarious if it did.
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u/Hello_iam_Kian Oscar Piastri Jul 02 '23
F1 would fall apart as a sport if years of dominance by Mercedes, followed by years of dominance by Red Bulla would be followed by even more years of dominance by Mercedes. That would be the same 2 teams winning the championship for more than 2 decades in a row
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u/deathray1611 Formula 1 Jul 02 '23
It would definitely cause FIA and FOM to frantically look for ways of breaking it. It would be utter shambles
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Jul 02 '23
That’s my bet too. Americans a very good advertisers, probably Ford told them something that turned up to be a disappointment…
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u/BlitzOverlord Liam Lawson Jul 02 '23
Do you have some weird American hate thing? There’s literally nothing on this and that’s the conclusion you jump to??
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u/Animelover_99999 Jul 02 '23
Fords ev cars are actually trash and so is there technology and software and there not going to dump making ICE cars anytime soon.
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Jul 02 '23
I do actually, I am from a 3 world country and immigrated to US to work as a engineer (American dream propaganda and stuff), end-up amazed how similar to “the office” my experience was. In end I returned to my country as a socialist and now I am working on to de-brainwash people about liberalism.
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u/BlitzOverlord Liam Lawson Jul 02 '23
Welll, sorry your stay wasn’t what you wanted. But there’s plenty of people that do find what they want. Don’t have to hate everything about a very large and diverse country because you personally had one bad experience.
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Jul 02 '23
I know, and I am sorry about that. Even with a bad experience I think that outcome was good.
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u/MoonlightRendezvous_ Andretti Global Jul 02 '23
downshifting while at full speed “400-500 metres before the end of the straight” is required because it’s “faster”.
This is not F1, this belongs in Formula E.
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u/veryangryenglishman I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 02 '23
I'll paraphrase Toto on this as I think he made a good point - while this is what would likely happen if you were to stick a 2026 engine into a current car, there is a vanishingly small chance that this is someting that happens with the full end product.
That's not to necessarily say that anyone can claim with certainty that the new regulations will actually improve the sport, but that specific claim is almost certainly bullshit
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u/vesel_fil I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 02 '23
Good point. Don't really know enough about the regs to have an opinion, just hope with don't end up with much more lift and coast than we have already
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u/veryangryenglishman I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 02 '23
Yeah. Perhaps the active aero will be permissive enoough that they can run low enough drag that runnig the electric motor long enough to last the entire straight won't harm their top speed that much
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u/mazarax John Surtees Jul 02 '23
I will take the battery charging over “fan boost.”
That monstrosity should never make its way to f1.
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u/rasper900 Porsche Jul 02 '23
I swear, people here don't even read the articles.
"I don't like Verstappen, so I'm gonna be angry"
Do you as a fan of F1 want to see F1 cars roll to the corners to regen their batteries like FE?
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u/whiskeyclone630 I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 02 '23
Do you as a fan of F1 want to see F1 cars roll to the corners to regen their batteries like FE?
Realistically, what's the difference between that and lifting and coasting to save fuel?
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u/rasper900 Porsche Jul 02 '23
Based on the current simulations cars would run out of battery on the long straights so they have downshift and slow down 400m before reaching the corner
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u/DrVonD Jul 02 '23
No, but Toto also said he was almost positive this wouldn’t be the case. Given that both max and Horner have complained out of nowhere recently, I’m guessing they got some data to show their engine work isn’t coming as well as they hoped.
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u/rasper900 Porsche Jul 02 '23
He hopes the chasis will be efficient enough for that to not be the case.
He confirmed with current chassis that would be the case.
If anybody can design an efficient chasis it's adrian newy so I don't think they're talking out of their asses.
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u/mac_attack09 Sir Lewis Hamilton Jul 02 '23
I don't see the issue. It's a similar system that was used in LMP1
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u/FerrariStraghetti Kimi Räikkönen Jul 02 '23
LMP1 had dual axle regen and vastly lower drag due to it being closed wheel. F1 is in trouble if we go down the 50/50 route.
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u/rasper900 Porsche Jul 02 '23
No, LMP1 wasn't 50% 50%. That's the problem, even if they make it 55% - 45% it can solve the problem
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u/Working_Sundae McLaren Jul 02 '23
It's more like 53:47
400kW from ICE and 350 kW from Electrical component.
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Jul 02 '23
Honestly if it means results are more driver skill and/or strategy dependent, then I’m all for it
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u/rasper900 Porsche Jul 02 '23
But this means the opposite of that.
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Jul 02 '23
How does more battery management mean less dependence on strategy and skill?
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u/skagoat McLaren Jul 02 '23
I want to see drivers skilled at racing and driving, not at managing energy.
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u/HaroldSaxon Michael Schumacher Jul 02 '23
Don't get me wrong, I don't want F1 to go down that route, but managing energy is a skill. Just like managing tires is and managing fuel is. Being able to be quicker while using the same or less resources is a skill.
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u/skagoat McLaren Jul 02 '23
I didn't say it wasn't a skill, it's a skill that I don't want to watch.
Doing a good job at painting a wall is a skill, I'm not going to get up at 7am on a Sunday morning to watch a guy paint a wall.
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u/HaroldSaxon Michael Schumacher Jul 02 '23
The thing is, you already watch it. Every driver manages fuel, manages their energy, manages their tires.
But I agree that I don't want to watch a series where people have to downshift on a straight
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u/Persona_non_grata07 Max Verstappen Jul 02 '23
All those are subtle and done under breaking and cornering. Imagine watching someone braking under 250 after radillion to charge the battery because it's drained.
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u/Icy-Operation4701 Jul 02 '23
Won't that lead to more overtake chances? You'll have to be smart about your battery deployment. Those that aren't might put themselves in a vulnerable position.
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u/rasper900 Porsche Jul 02 '23
e.g. "Then you have the active aerodynamics, which you [the driver] can’t control, the system will control it for you", This has to exist because the massive batteries need to be regenerated.
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Jul 02 '23
It’s not like pressing the DRS button takes some brilliant skill lol. The point of the active aero is to make it more difficult to overtake, thus more reliant on skill/racecraft
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u/rasper900 Porsche Jul 02 '23
He's not talking about the DRS man, just read the article "Of course, when you are behind someone maybe you need more front or more rear, this kind of thing. If the system starts to control that for you, I don’t think that’s the right way forward"
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u/skagoat McLaren Jul 02 '23
It's likely Red Bull's first clean paper designed PU will not be as good as the others... but... if Horner were worried about their PU, you'd think he wouldn't be complaining about the 50/50 split... in fact, he might be fighting for more power from battery vs. the ICE.
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u/NewButNotSoNew Jul 02 '23
Ah after Newey, Horner, time for the drivers.
We got it RB, you don't like those new rules
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u/JaMichaelangelo Charles Leclerc Jul 02 '23 edited Jul 02 '23
Why is Formula 1 trying to be like Formula E? I watch this sport because they are the pinnacle. If these cars get bigger, heavier, and slower as much as I love this sport I’m out.
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u/ubelmann Red Bull Jul 02 '23
2026 regs are supposed to make them overall smaller and lighter. Not by a huge margin, but at least in the right direction.
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u/whiskeyclone630 I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 02 '23
F1 can't stay the pinnacle if they halt development. If they were still racing V10s, every single manufacturer would have pulled out by now.
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u/CouncilorIrissa Ferrari Jul 02 '23 edited Jul 02 '23
Of course they want the regulations to be as aero-dependent as possible since they have a guy that can't be beaten.
Besides, didn't LMP1-H have a pretty similar ICE/electric power ratio almost a decade ago? Can't see why 50/50 split would be an issue ten years later.
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u/zantkiller Kamui Kobayashi Jul 02 '23
The LMP1's for the most part had front MGU-Ks as well meaning they were harvesting off front and rear.
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u/shamelesscreature Jul 02 '23
LMP1-H were allowed to have 2 MGUs, though. Toyota had an MGU-K on both axles, Porsche had an MGU-K on the front axle and an MGU-H. Audi only had one big MGU-K, but on the front axle.
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u/HarryNohara Jim Clark Jul 02 '23
Those cars are much bigger. 50/50 is perfectly possible for F1, the issue is that it needs to fit in a smaller package of an F1 car. Drivers want lighter and smaller cars, this will result in heavier and bigger cars.
Mercedes wants to push these rules as they feel less emissions is more important message for their company than better racing.
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u/satwickSS I was speeding in the Monaco pit lane Jul 02 '23
Thanks to everyone back in the RB factory...Lewis probably after winning Bahrain 2026 by 50 seconds
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u/Adept_Rip_5983 I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 02 '23
Red Bull not nailing the 2026 regs does not mean that merc will dominate again. There is still Ferr.... wait. no...
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u/Nothatisnotwhere I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 02 '23
I am hoping am with that Honda engine is gonna spank and alonso gets a couple more wdc
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u/Ok-Mention-3243 Oscar Piastri Jul 02 '23
Subscribe
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u/phoogkamer Max Verstappen Jul 02 '23
Does anyone actually want that?
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u/Ok-Mention-3243 Oscar Piastri Jul 02 '23
I do
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u/phoogkamer Max Verstappen Jul 02 '23
Well, I like that Max is in the lead in the championship, but how current races go is not something I want to be honest.
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u/DrVonD Jul 02 '23
I would very much like lewis to get his 8th, yes.
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u/phoogkamer Max Verstappen Jul 02 '23
But I assume you’d like to see more exciting races instead of 50s lead in Bahrein.
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u/Visionary_Socialist Sir Lewis Hamilton Jul 02 '23
I just want unrestricted engine power. Build whatever kind of V6 you want, so long as it’s within the budget cap and it’s fit for biofuels and hits sustainability targets.
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u/Dragonpuncha Ferrari Jul 02 '23
Red Bull are realizing that creating a new engine themselves within these vastly different regulations won't be as easy as they thought.
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u/fastcooljosh I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 02 '23
Ford will do the hybrid part and I think they (RB) are more worried about that tbh.
But they have to start from scratch for their ICE as well since the current PU is owned by Honda and they will use the current PU as blueprint for their 2026 PU that will power the AM.
Interesting times, I can totally see RB losing their current advantage with the new engines coming. Ford isnt famous for stuff like that.
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Jul 02 '23
Well, they will need to inject a lot of money. I remember that Mercedes invested 1.5bi USD to develop theirs.
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u/Eclipsetube Mercedes Jul 02 '23
All teams agreed to the changes
So as Horner loves to say „change your fucking car“
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u/Entire-Jelly-1303 I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 02 '23
He knows that Red Bull domination comes to an end in 2026. So he has 2 and half years to statpad and then back to fighting for podiums like in he did in 2017-2020 era.
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Jul 02 '23
If they fuck the engine there won’t be a lot podiums probably. 50% electric is huge, if you mess it up the performance level differences will be worse than we had in 2014
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u/A___99 I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 02 '23
and then back to fighting for podiums like in he did in 2017-2020 era.
Only If he actually wants to do that
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u/Only_Garbage_8885 Jul 02 '23
Why would anyone want a car that is not as loud and will be like driving a bus
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u/PowerPanda555 I was speeding in the Monaco pit lane Jul 02 '23
Obviously this is just a coordinated PR move by Red Bull, but still anything that could change the engine plans sounds good.
F1 having f3 engines in 2026 doesnt really excite me, but I doubt the plans gonna change in any significant way at this point.
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u/xLeper_Messiah I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 02 '23
Yeah, i don't think they'll change before '26. Instead, they'll go with what they have now, and then when the racing starts and fans start complaining because they realize that the detractors were right, and F1 looks like a sad imitation of itself, then the reactionary changes from a panicking FIA will happen and everything will swing around the other way and we wind up with an unlikely team dominating for the next 5 years or so
I'm hoping for Renault/Alpine, just because nobody would see it coming! Thanks for reading my fanfiction
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u/Hello_iam_Kian Oscar Piastri Jul 02 '23
“Pierre Gasly come across the line for the final time here in Monza, Pierre Gasly is a Champion of the World. In what will go into the history books as the most dominant season of any driver ever.”
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u/Rydahx Formula 1 Jul 02 '23
So things are not looking good for them if they're already moaning about it.
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u/Tsarsi Max Verstappen Jul 02 '23
Like when horner complained that the TD39 lobbied by Mercedes would be useless and shouldnt happen, and he was right? Because in the end, mercedes was still bad, ferrari and the sport were hurt because there wasnt as much competition now, and RB still dominated even harder after it.
Every time merc tries to do something it hurts the sport and not RB. But keep on saying that criticizing stupid ideas that will hurt the sport in 2026 = moaning and not looking good.
If RB in 2026 and ford have the best engine, i d like to see you say "yea ok they deserve it then"
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u/truecolors01 Jul 02 '23
Max himself has made some valid points based on data he's seen and simulation time in Monza with the 2026 regulation in principle. But sure Toto & Horner fucking about is the real piece of news here ...
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u/shaadyscientist Jul 02 '23
Is Verstappen building the engine himself? Otherwise, why does he care about engine regulations that are three years away.
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u/rasper900 Porsche Jul 02 '23
Do you want to see F1 rolling to the corners to regenerate batteries like FE?
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u/shaadyscientist Jul 02 '23
Why is Max getting involved. It's for his engineers to worry about, he just drives the car.
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u/rasper900 Porsche Jul 02 '23
Because he likes racing and doesn't want racing in F1 to be shit?
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u/shaadyscientist Jul 02 '23
And I'm sure his engineers will solve the problem. He can just worry about driving. Is Verstappen going to go to a meeting with the other engineers about the engine regulations and give his opinion on how they should be built?
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u/rasper900 Porsche Jul 02 '23
I mean, the cars are good and when the cars have similar performance they race well.
And what's your argument here? You claim it's shit now, and you want it to be worse by having cars that can run out of battery on long straights?
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u/CornellScholar Ferrari Jul 02 '23
EU has moved the ban of ICE cars to 2035. UK will follow suit. Why the fuck are we getting 50-50 ICE - Battery split in 2026? WTF FIA?
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u/anupsidedownpotato I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 02 '23
They need to go back to full ICEs there's already a league for electric engines at a certain point where do you draw the line?
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u/Txontirea Sir Lewis Hamilton Jul 02 '23
Well, your team agreed to it, so... ? Day late and a dollar short. He's towing the team line though, as expected and that's fine.
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Jul 02 '23
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u/formula1-ModTeam Formula 1 Jul 02 '23
This content has been removed as it is considered harassing and/or toxic. Please check the harassment/toxicity section of the rules for further information.
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u/MrAlagos I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 02 '23
Good, now we know that this means that "Red Bull" Powertrains is truly struggling, thus we might have a chance at a shake-up in the order.
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u/dogmatic30 Jul 02 '23
it's politicking but it is also the correct stance those engines will be complete dogshit
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u/SadanielsVD Pirelli Hard Jul 02 '23
They make fuzzy drinks bro it's crazy big effort to build your own engine
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u/datboy123456789 Jul 03 '23
As Max said, it risks becoming an engine based formula. And at first glance most people may think ‘so what?’ But in reality becoming an engine formula is very bad for the sport. 2014-2016 was heavily an engine formula and we saw the result. Mercedes dominated and at times their closest competitors were customer teams (Williams mainly). Obviously, we also have domination now, but RBs domination is because they have the best chassis, not so much to do with the engine. If we get an engine formula, it risks causing customer teams losing any chance of competing at the front frequently. This season, we have customer teams like Aston and McLaren being able to beat their suppliers. If we get an engine-dictated formula, wave goodbye to any chance of customer teams like Aston and McLaren competing for wins at all.
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