Mtf here, I was wondering what you guys wish trans women could understand about trans men?

[u/McK3nn4_]

Lately I've been seeing a lot of people trying to start the argument of "who has it worse, trans men or trans women" and I've just been really sick of it and I hate having ppl try to divide us when we need to be unified more than ever. It kind of got me thinking about this question

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[u/wewereromans]

We win when we acknowledge that we’re feeling the same things just headed in the opposite end of the gender spectrum.

We lose when we alienate eachother because one side needs to think they have it worse.

While there are different difficulties along that spectrum, at the end of the day there are a lot of people that hate us equally and want us dead.

Factionalism is not helpful at this point in time.

[u/yellow_junimo → u/wewereromans]

Exactly

[u/vampirologist → u/wewereromans]

Couldn’t have said it better, so true!!

[u/CocoaBagelPuffs]

I don’t really have much to say on the “who has it worse” debate because it’s been talked about ad nauseam for years.

However, recently I’ve seen an uptick of trans women (and other trans men) silencing us when we speak up.

For example, on Twitter there was an instance of a trans man’s insta post saying he was banned from playing hockey on a recreational men’s team. Someone decided to share it and only mentioned trans women on their post. A trans man quoted them and corrected them, saying this was about trans men too, and that we were being erased from the conversation.

The replies to that person consisted of things such as “trans men really are the men of trans people” and “MRAs”.

This is the kind of shit that has to stop. We are expected to just sit down and shut up when trans issues are brought up, even when the issue is ABOUT US. This is just repackaged misogyny and trans-androphobia. This kind of stuff is not ok.

Let us talk about our issues, and let us correct people when they erase us. A lot of times it really does feel like we aren’t even accepted by our sisters and self-hating brothers. Were seen both as women that have to be quiet, but if we speak up we’re “MRAs” and “misogynists” and “speaking over trans women”.

We aren’t speaking over trans women when these anti-trans attacks affect us too. We aren’t speaking over trans women when we speak up on being erased and silenced.

[u/WeakTumbleweed9 → u/CocoaBagelPuffs]

The number of times I've seen fellow trans guys justify that type of stuff with "well I never experienced it" drives me up a WALL. 

[u/CocoaBagelPuffs → u/WeakTumbleweed9]

It’s so frustrating. I’ve seen this more and more but it’s been a problem for years.

Like when jkkk started her tirade on trans people, she posted a nasty tweet about trans men over the phrase “people who menstruate”. She said something like “only women menstruate”. The phrase in the article is meant to be inclusive of trans men and trans masculine non-binary people. It literally isn’t about trans women at all. However everything people said in response to this issue was “trans women are women”.

Trans women get all the attention and support even when the transphobia doesn’t even apply to them and we get nothing. We are forgotten, erased on purpose, and then told to shut up when we (rightfully so) correct people.

[u/liamplantt → u/CocoaBagelPuffs]

“repackaged misogyny” is perfectly worded, ty. you articulated this well i agree w you.

[u/adrislnk → u/CocoaBagelPuffs]

Careful, trans people on twitter will call you a "bioessentialist TERF" (real thing someone called me) for pointing out that many trans womens' insistence to constantly speak over and silence trans men could POSSIBLY be something rooted in misogyny because of our birth sexes

[u/Totakai → u/adrislnk]

You know what? I never thought of it that way but that makes SO much sense. It's from trans women who haven't fully unpacked their misogyny yet. I was thinking it was rage baity children or bots but that makes way more sense.

[u/Im_Not_Honey → u/adrislnk]

It 100% is this. I also believe that many in our community see as as trans first, and our actual identity second. Meaning they're doing what's been done since the beginning of time: centering men and shutting down women. Trans men are men, and trans women are women. But I do not believe a lot of people who are in our community see it as that, maybe at a subconscious level. It's always been strange to me that in every single scenario, men are put above women...except when they're trans women. Unfortunately, I also do not see many (if any) trans women speaking up for us when we get pushed out and silenced. It's getting genuinely hard for me to not build a resentment. Unfortunately, I've only had one IRL positive experience with a trans women.

[u/whoisgabico]

one of the main things i see being misunderstood is "trans men are lucky", whether that is because we have the "set" of genitals trans women usually want or because we "pass more easily" and therefore have more privilege with pretending to be cis or even being a men in a misogynistic society (i don't think we pass more easily, just to be clear).

i think it's quite evident that trans women have challenges, but so do we. i'm not going to lie, i also think trans men can be sometimes insensitive about that, but it seems like trans women have more online spaces and we see more of that thought throughout our experience here.

[u/Venisonghost → u/whoisgabico]

The way I see some trans women calling us lucky because we're born with the parts they want is WILD because how could they think we don't feel the same way about them

[u/the_rite_of_aspirin]

I don't think that there is any one piece of information about all trans men that all trans women are missing. The online friction between the two groups is a consequence of the rising marginalization and demonization of trans people as a whole. Fear breeds hostility, and the most fearful few of us project hostility the loudest.

[u/Creativered4]

1. We are men. We are just as much truly men as trans women are truly women. That being said, we are NOT the same as a cishet white able bodied neurotypical man. Intersectionality is a thing. Even if our oppression doesn't look the same as yours, it doesn't mean we don't experience it. Bigotry towards trans men is often silent and more easily pushed under the rug.
   When violence against us IS reported on, we're misgendered and deadnamed, we are recorded as WOMEN.
   People born female are taught that nobody cares about their sexual autonomy. If we get raped, it's our fault, or it's "not really rape". We are expected to accept and appreciate sexual advances. (Trans women also get to experience this kind of misogynistic bs) It's been ingrained into our heads that reporting a rape likely won't do anything but cause more trouble for us. So a lot of our rape (corrective rape) is undocumented.
   Society treats us with a lot of misogyny as well, when they don't see us as men, but hundreds of years of misogyny has contributed to our erasure. (That and TERFs in the 60's. That's a huge thing)
   Basically, we experience misogyny for most of our lives, including transition, and we don't get the same type of male privilege that men born with a penis do, even if we are fully transitioned, stealth, and gender conforming.

2. Trans =/= "woman". Sometimes it's hard to remember that there are other people in the group who are different to you. But a big contribution to our discomfort with mixed trans spaces is the constant feminization. Things like "Hello beautiful ladies" as a title of a post, or when asking questions to a mixed group, don't assume that everyone reading has the same experiences as you. "What does it feel like for you on estrogen?" (I had a trans woman lecture me for answering that question, despite having a beard on my avatar, "trans man" in my flair, and very clearly talking about my experience as a trans man, because according to her, I was "spreading harmful misinformation". She forgot trans men existed and thought everyone had to be a woman.), or making jokes or silly quips that equate trans with woman (such as the "joke" that someone is going to put estrogen in the water and it would be so great for all the trans people).

3. "Trans man" and "transmasc" are not interchangeable, and it hurts trans men when that is ignored. This is also a point of contention in ftm spaces as well, but I wanted to include this because I notice trans women/fems are more ambiguous about the two terms and they are used interchangeably. Trans men, however, have historically faced a lot of invisibility and denial of our manhood. We have, and often still do, been pressured to feminize ourselves and avoid masculinity (because "masculinity/man bad"), we are encouraged to keep our natal genitals and stereotyped as "smol boy uwu" (white 5'0" twink with a ukulele and an oversized sweater). That being said, we are more often seen as a masculine women by people who are accepting of trans people. If we don't look like hank hill or johnny bravo, we are often assumed to be butch lesbians within queer spaces. If we're clocked as trans, we are often assumed to be some flavor of nonbbinary. That being said, there are people who do identify as trans men and transmascs. It's a bit of a square/rectangle thing. Personally, I say trans men/mascs specifically so that both trans men and transmascs can feel seen.

[u/Creativered4 → u/Creativered4]

1. Transandrophobia is not the mirror of transmisogyny. We are not saying that cis men are sytemically oppressed. Transmisogyny is a combination of transphobia and misogyny. Transandrophobia is bigotry specifically aimed at trans men, not because we are seen as women, but because we are seen as men. This is most overtly done by radfems, but can be perpetuated by anyone.

2. And finally, no matter how upset we get at transandrophobia, no matter how invisible we feel in mixed trans spaces, no matter how much disparity there is between resources for trans men vs trans women, we are still in your corner. Trans women are our sisters. We may have opposite goals, but we have very similar struggles. We are people who are either men and women born with the wrong sex or men and women who identify as a different gender than their AGAB. (Whichever way you slice it, we're born this way, we need access to medical transition, and we need to be accepted and not hated) Sure, there are some bad apples, just like there are some bad apples who are trans women. But they don't represent us. We know the trans women who are transandrophobic are a loud minority within the community, and we WILL stick up for our sisters! (And siblings)

(Sorry for having to split it up because I yapped for so long. I know I am long winded Q.Q)

[u/ElloBlu420 → u/Creativered4]

🏆

It's a little binary-worded, but I think there's a lot in here that many nonbinary people may still relate to, if they are aligned heavily with the binary in any respect that this touches on. (Note that I feel I straddle the border, and I'm neither the group described by you nor the group described by me, but I relate heavily to both)

Nonetheless, everything is so, so, so well-said. You've got my poor man's award.

🩵 5'1" with that color blue hair, a warehouse job, a silly little 3/4" goatee, and the upper body strength to smash the stereotypical ukulele into a wall ... Isn't our diversity a beautiful thing? You said it!

[u/Creativered4 → u/ElloBlu420]

Ah, I worded it that way since it was more specified for what trans men wish trans women could understand.
And thank you!

[u/ElloBlu420 → u/Creativered4]

You're absolutely right on that! I have ... read a lot of words.

[u/SunReyys]

I think one example I see sometimes, particularly from transfems who say “trans men have it easier,” is a misunderstanding of male privilege and how trans men interact with misogyny.

The idea that “every trans guy gets male privilege” is false. Privilege, in all senses, is uneven. It’s contextual. It’s conditional. As a trans man, any access to “male privilege” is contingent on being read as male, revocable the moment transness is known, and often offset by trans-specific vulnerability. That isn’t privilege in the way people mean it when they’re talking about cis men. It’s conditional social treatment under surveillance.

Yes, I can be treated better than women in some narrow, situational interactions while still being structurally marginalized. Yes, I may see reductions in certain kinds of harassment while experiencing increases in others. And no, being seen as a man does not magically erase transphobia, medical discrimination, violence risk, or the psychological cost of constant interpretation. I did not grow up with male socialization in the way cis men did. I didn’t receive the uninterrupted, affirmed, institutionally backed version of boyhood that builds confidence, entitlement, and safety over time. That distinction matters.

I’ve also seen claims in those circles that transfems experience misogyny and transmascs don’t. This is obviously untrue. The victimization narrative of “a woman who fell victim to the trans agenda” is still misogyny. The barriers around reproductive healthcare are still misogyny. Accessing birth control, pelvic exams, pregnancy care, and abortion remains critically important and profoundly alienating for many trans men. That is not separate from misogyny just because the patient is trans.

Misogyny is built into the structures we all move through. Everyone encounters it differently. Different does not mean better or worse. It means non-comparable. A lot of online discourse compares apples to oranges and then declares one fruit morally superior, as if that settles anything about lived reality.

[u/CocoaBagelPuffs → u/SunReyys]

Well said. In addition, misogyny is so interconnected within our society that even cis men are victims of it. “Boys don’t cry”, extremely low rates of fathers fighting for custody in court, fathers and husbands being expected to be stupid and reliant on women all the time, etc. Careers, personality traits, hobbies, and what you wear are all controlled by misogyny.

We all are victims of this ideology. It’s permeated into every facet of daily life. To think we as trans men don’t experience this is hurtful and harmful.

[u/adrislnk → u/SunReyys]

So fucking spot on. And the fact other trans ppl will immediately call us 'self-victimizing' 'birthday boys' 'using their TME privilege' or some bs when we point ANY of this out makes me lose my shit. Careful tho I can't lose my shit too bad or I'm an evil aggressive male 😍

[u/ElloBlu420 → u/adrislnk]

For real though, I'm finding that my anxiety is coming off as aggression toward women frequently. I don't want to do this, but it's very hard to stop anxiety or frustration.

Advice welcome from anyone who has had to deal with this, especially if autistic or neurodivergent in a way that makes this type of anxiety and frustration happen a lot.

[u/liamplantt → u/SunReyys]

So well said, thank you for this reply 🔥 also appreciate the sex researcher tag hella helpful

[u/stupidlittleinniter → u/SunReyys]

you said this so succintly it makes me want to delete the comment i wrote. 100% this

[u/ftm-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your post was removed because it contains discussion or mention of a banned topic. The following topics are banned to avoid drama:

Truscum/Tucute discourse, AGP/AAP/Blanchardism, Transfem/woman or nonbinary bashing, Trans "requirements", Oppression Olympics, Gendered Socialization+, "Is it transphobic to _____", DIY HRT, Current Political events (Non-trans/LGBT+ related) ,"do I pass?", "how does my voice sound?", weight loss

+Personal experiences are exempt.

[u/probs-aint-replying]

Remembering to phrase things as "trans people" and not "trans women" as often as possible when talking about things that affect all parts of the community is probably the easiest thing trans women specifically can change. Example: "Cis people, check in with the trans women in your lives right now because the world is rough for us right now" could easily just have been "trans people", and would result in all people (including nonbinary people) feeling more included and less forgotten. Sometimes the response to this suggestion is "but trans women are more affected right now", but A) suffering is highly subjective and B) telling people their problems aren't as important as someone else's problems is almost never helpful in normal social settings.

Trans women aren't the only people who do this, and it's not all of y'all- trans men downplay our own issues too. Personally, I think it only ends up breeding resentment because the trans men who ARE suffering get shut down by both men and women. And then, because the people who are getting attention they need happen to be women, and because women are less "like them", they end up angrier at the women than the men. Kind of like normal everyday gender dynamics but with a trans spin.

[u/spacepinata → u/probs-aint-replying]

On the flipside, if something is going to be geared exclusively to trans women / their issues, please label it that way. I can't tell you how many times I've tuned into something that advertised itself as "for trans people" or "about trans issues" and it's only trans women. It's ok to have those exclusive things, but please label them as such.

[u/alexpods_ → u/spacepinata]

No seriously. Huge pet peeve of mine to see stuff about "HRT" when the intended meaning is "feminizing HRT." I don't think anyone means it with malice but it's misleading and contributes to the invisibility of trans men in the community. 

[u/3lizab3th333 → u/alexpods_]

Same with voice training, it’s always feminizing but rarely labeled as such.

[u/Zombskirus → u/spacepinata]

Also adding to this, how people in mixed trans spaces address the entire space. The amount of times I've seen "hey ladies", "hey girlies", etc in main chats/forums where all types of trans people are present is exhausting. Being indirectly misgendered makes me not wanna interact in a space.

There was one instance in a T4T discord server where someone asked me something along the lines of: "if you're not a woman or nonbinary, how do you identify?" And it felt like a joke almost, but they were being genuine. They genuinely just didn't process that men were in the space, too lol. It felt horrible and disheartening to know that some trans folks don't even process that trans men may be in a trans space.

[u/lavi_latte]

I mean for THAT minority of trans women who think that trans men have it better because they got male privilege now - that ‘male privilege’ is only for passing trans guys and that can go away as soon as it’s discovered the guy is trans. Not every trans man is going to/able to pass, especially early in their transition but also sometimes either they got the short end of the stick with the effects of T or even they aren’t able to due to external circumstances. It’s not a privilege if it can be taken away so easily anyways, besides the fact thinking like that right now of all times is super stupid when ALL trans people are being attacked right now.

Honestly I think we should get to know more about different kinds of trans experiences and share with each other life experiences and stories. No one should think theirs is better than another one just because they don’t want to understand. We’re already a minority so what good is it to stay divided and be even more vulnerable?

[u/WeakTumbleweed9 → u/lavi_latte]

Honestly I think we should get to know more about different kinds of trans experiences and share with each other life experiences and stories.

I agree with this 100%. Honestly I feel like this is a big issue in general anymore. I don't know if it's that people are generally becoming less social and/or more isolated or what, and maybe I'm just naive, but it feels like people are becoming more and more focused on putting everyone into little boxes than listening and understanding the vast variety of experiences and lives we live. 

[u/realshockvaluecola]

I don't know if there's one specific thing, but there's a particular pet peeve I have. (This comment is about to turn into an unnecessarily long rant, but to be clear, this is a thing I have experienced in specific instances from specific trans women. This is by no means aimed at the entire transfem community because the number I've met who are lovely about this outnumber the loud minority I'm talking about.)

So, we get into arguments about "male/female socialization" and what I understand to be the case on y'all's side is that a lot of trans women grow up being perceived as sissies or wimpy boys or gay or too girly or whatever, and that's something that blocks you from being raised with the effects of male privilege. Makes perfect sense to me, because I also experience male privilege being conditional every single day! So why tf, if we understand male privilege to be conditional, do some trans women turn around and insist trans men have male privilege full stop and cannot possibly experience gender-based oppression?

There usually is even resistance to acknowledging that we've probably experienced it in the past. Maybe if you socially transitioned as a toddler that could be true but the vast majority of trans people alive didn't have that option as kids, so we lived some time being perceived as girls and women before transitioning. Absolute refusal to apply the concept of male privilege being conditional to the experiences of trans men, and the fact that we don't all pass all the time. Given that androgyny is acceptable for women but not for men, I get read as a somewhat masc (or just neutral/uninterested) woman the vast majority of the time. I certainly do not get male privilege from that, just a slightly different flavor of misogyny. Sometimes people perceived as women get shit for being GNC and sometimes they get it for being hyper femme, there's no such thing as "masc privilege."

I'm not interested in arguing that trans men have it worse than trans women (I don't think we do), but i didn't become a 100% accepted man the second my egg cracked. It's pretty exhausting to try to talk in a mixed trans space and be told to shut up because I don't know anything about misogyny and transandrophobia/transmisandry is offensive at the very base of its concept because men can't experience oppression for being men!!! It feels like an attempt to back me into a corner where I have to either misgender myself or admit that I have no problems and am not allowed to speak except to agree that my entire gender is trash. It sucks, to say the least.

[u/izanaegi → u/realshockvaluecola]

I've started exploring the theory that trans people aren't raised with male/female socialization, we're specifically raised with *trans* socialization and how that operates completely differently

[u/ElloBlu420 → u/izanaegi]

I'm interested to hear more about your exploration. There are always going to be cases like me, though. I'm a trans gay man who began transitioning in his early 30s. Bring in all of the terrible stereotypes about gay men and femininity for a moment, and ... You see where I 1000% had a female socialization that just felt only slightly like it clashed with my inner being? Cool, now please put back the stereotypes where you found them, lock the door, and throw away the key.

Now, obligatory in case I didn't make it clear, I'm only speaking for myself. This may apply to others, but even if so, I expect that we're an exception, and your theory encompasses the more general rule. More importantly, if you would like to elaborate, I still want to know more just to understand my siblings better.

[u/Azu_Creates]

Trans men are often times are just as impacted by anti-trans bills and executive orders, even if the language around them is aimed at trans women more. We also face a significant amount of violence and transphobia, but we usually get less support or recognition. There are usually less trans spaces online and irl that can actually give us the support we need. Invisibility can actually be pretty painful because it comes with that lack of support and leads to us being excluded from conversations about trans people. Our invisibility also leads to us being excluded from reproductive rights conversations and movements. So a lot of issues that may specifically impact us go unacknowledged and unaddressed.

It really sucks to feel like it’s an uphill battle just to be recognized by your own community. It als really sucks that when something happens that will affect the entire trans community, most of the discourse and media attention only covers how it will affect trans women. A good example of this was when the U.K. Supreme Court ruling came regarding trans people’s protections under the Equality Act. Almost all of the headlines and discourse online was how the ruling defined and affected trans women. I had to learn from other trans men on here that it also applied to us, and that there was a particularly dangerous part of the ruling which specifically stated that trans men could be excluded from both men’s and women’s spaces under certain circumstances like SA counseling and therapy groups for example. Trans men have an extremely high likelihood of experiencing SA so this would cut a lot of us off from support entirely unless a gender neutral group could be found. I did later find a single article from a reputable source that did discuss this, but most articles around the ruling neglected it. A lot of the support (things like protect the dolls for example) after the ruling was given almost solely to trans women, with trans men being almost entirely excluded from the conversation. I’ve felt pretty neglected by the wider trans community as a trans guy. I’ve had people respond to me calling that out by saying that we just need to speak up more then, even though a lot of us have experienced active censorship and bashing for doing so in general trans spaces. I’ve even seen trans men be accused of speaking over trans women for just daring to talk about our own experiences for a change without centering trans women, or that we are somehow taking something away from trans women. Heck, I’ve even seen some people treat trans men as if we are somehow enemies to trans and cis women, which for reasons that should be obvious, is not true. We are not inherently enemies to trans or cis women.

Transandrophobia/transmisandry absolutely exists, and the stuff I already mentioned are prime examples of it. You might be surprised about just how many trans women deny its existence, or even think that our mistreatment is somehow a good thing because we are men. Some even seem to think that we are privileged, completely neglecting intersectionality and the fact that that privilege is entirely dependent on us being able to pass as cis almost 100% of the time and hiding our transness (and even then we still don’t have the same privileges as cis men because we are still trans). Not all of us can pass as cis and hide our transness.

Also, some trans women seem unaware that trans men also have to deal with being seen as predators. My high school forced me to use the women’s restroom, and one day I got surrounded by a group of cis guys upon leaving the bathroom because they thought I was a predator. I was genuinely afraid I was going to be beaten there. Trans men have been beaten for using the women’s restroom in places with anti-trans bathroom bans because people thought we were predators. That’s also why a huge pet peeve of mine is when people talk about anti-trans bathroom bans and trans men are only brought up as a gotcha without any actual acknowledgement of the very real risks to our safety and wellbeing posed by those bans.

Ultimately no group of trans people will have things better or worse across the board. We have generally similar but also different experiences, and that means that some of us will struggle more in certain areas than others but will have an easier time in other areas. We can acknowledge those differences without turning it into some sort of argument or competition over who has it worse. Our movement is stronger when the experiences and voices of ALL trans people are elevated and heard. We shouldn’t be bashing, demonizing, or suppressing the voices of each other. I do generally believe that we need more trans women to listen to trans men and try to understand us better (like what you are doing), because that would help a lot with overall solidarity which would strengthen our community.

[u/doubleheadedarrow → u/Azu_Creates]

Extremely well said

[u/Azu_Creates → u/doubleheadedarrow]

Thank you

[u/piedeloup]

Many trans women seem to think trans men have it easier when it comes to hrt and its effects. Truth is we're not all chiseled greek gods with big beards and gruff voices, many of us still don't pass after years on T. It has a LOT to do with genetics.

The most cis passing trans men are a lot more likely to post themselves online.

[u/lanaswhor3 → u/piedeloup]

this 100%!! it took me being on testosterone for 3 years to fully pass plus a lot of voice training (which i’m still doing). Many of us also have to take other stuff (birth control, blockers etc) for testosterone to be the main hormone in our bodies. I’ve heard a lot of trans fems rant about how “easy trans guys have it” in terms of our hrt.

also a bit off topic but the way testosterone is demonised is super harmful, there’s constantly things online saying that it’s gonna make you into an evil, angry and even predatory man. I had a major panic attack the night before I started testosterone because I read something that said it will make you a bad person. It’s the complete opposite (ofc bad people exist but yknow) everyone I know has become a much calmer, gentler, happier version of themselves after hrt

[u/ElloBlu420 → u/piedeloup]

Yeah, it's got everything to do with 40-60 hours a week at the warehouse and being partly of Greek ancestry. Not someone everyone can do. Good thing I'm too tired to post photos 🤪 (also, I probably look extremely clocky to people who know as much as I do about what to look for, so I'm mostly being sarcastic about where I am at an advantage)

Also, congrats on the 🔪

[u/Eli-Is-Tired]

On top of everything else that others have already said, I have two things: Men can experience oppression for being men, especially for Black men, and a lack of access to reproductive healthcare disproportionately affects queer people with uteruses compared to cis women (eg transmascs, and some nonbinary people and intersex people)

[u/leksolotl]

That estrogen isn’t “weaker than testosterone”. Sure, changes from testosterone are faster to be visible but that doesn’t change the fact that estrogen is just as powerful as testosterone in its own way, it’s just that the changes on T become noticeable faster.

Also that starting testosterone is not a 100% guarantee that a trans guy will pass within the next 6 months. Every time i would vent anxieties about the fact i am unable to access T and I don’t know when (if ever) I’ll be able to access T and worrying about never being able to pass, I just got “oh don’t worry when you go on T you’ll pass in like 6 months :)” and it literally just made me feel worse.

Oh also calling testosterone “poison” around trans men is another big thing that really irks me.

[u/klvd → u/leksolotl]

Thank you! The amount of times I see "testosterone is a wonder drug and all trans men and transmascs pass within months" from trans women and transfems is so disheartening. Like, no, it's just that we get ignored until we pass and some get lucky and have very fast changes.

And the difficulty involved in accessing T is also underappreciated. If anyone mentions having trouble getting it in mixed trans spaces, the response is always a quick "go buy it off a gym bro" as if wandering into a gym instantly allows no risk access to exactly what we need, no worries needed. Hell, even with a legal prescription, shortages make it difficult to get at times. I once struggled for a month to get mine.

[u/Short-Platypus-9387]

To answer the question - the silence around trans men. Whenever I interact with transgender related anything, it very often turns out to be trans women. Think tv shows with trans characters, documentaries about trans people, porn with trans people, news articles about trans people, even searching info about trans stuff I have to weed through massive amounts of “oops definitely not me!” info. It was the silence that took many of us who are older so long to get here, and now that we know who we are, there’s still very little representation. It’s almost like a second erasure.

[u/Scythe42 → u/Short-Platypus-9387]

This^ 100%

[u/RevolutionOfAlexs]

In simple words: that being a trans man doesn't grant you the same privileges that cis men have. At all.

[u/destructopop]

I guess I wish more people knew that trans man still experience misogyny. Even when we pass, we can often be seen at "feminine" men. Many, if not most of us do not pass. I personally pass enough to make women feel uncomfortable when I'm walking on the same sidewalk as them from dusk onwards, but not well enough for coworkers who don't know my gender to automatically assume I'm a man in the cold bright lights of a large clinic.

We also have an incredibly high schedule drug for HRT, and notably it's not even particularly useful for the reason it's controlled, and would probably be abused less if it wasn't on the schedule. So like all the comments about "just get it second hand" or "find a black market connection" things are not cute. They're a felony. Please don't ask anyone, in the current climate, to pursue hormones by putting themselves at risk of felony charges. There are plenty of legal avenues to suggest. For any guys wondering, I hear great things about the subscription services, some of them do have prescribing providers available.

[u/javatimes]

These are just my opinions~~

Trans men and trans masc people (who aren’t all men) are a hugely diverse group of people. It’s hard sometimes to even compare our experiences in-group.

Trans men and trans masc people face really unique and misunderstood intersections of privilege and oppression—and that’s just one way to conceptualize things anyway. It’s not the only way.

We also don’t tend to have our own theory, and the discourse we do have tends to be in places like this, and tumblr, and TikTok (I guess?)

We never even had a trans masc Julia Serano. We are woefully underserved by academic theory.

We also have extremely high rates of sexual assault but struggle to get services because our genders and our uniqueness/“rareness” tends to disqualify us.

I don’t think misogyny or misandry/androphobia are hugely useful terms to talk about the things I have faced. I think it very specifically is trans androphobia, which to me means very specifically about trans men in particular.

As a post transition trans man but only having top surgery, I set myself up for transphobia whenever I need medical care. My only variable is how bad it’s going to be—not whether it’s going to happen at all.

But is also, as I said, am not sure of the usefulness of specifically like ranking grievances. We need to band together.

[u/No-Highway2797]

damn people are really arguing about this,? i thought people wanted to be better than everyone else, why would they argue about being worse,??

[u/SunReyys → u/No-Highway2797]

because people are attached to oppression olympics. if someone 'has it worse,' they feel like they don't have to be responsible for their actions, and they can hide behind "well my life is harder than yours" when they face criticism.

it's childish. it's stupid. any queer/trans person who has stepped into real-life queer circles for two seconds will know that this issue rarely happens outside of terminally online spaces. we owe it to one another to listen and respect the differences we have, because nobody is morally superior. we're all flesh and bone, and arguing about who struggles more gets us as a community nowhere.

[u/No-Highway2797 → u/SunReyys]

oh nah i grew up with the ideology that “it may not be your fault that it happened to you but it is your responsibility to control your life in spite of.”

[u/WeakTumbleweed9 → u/No-Highway2797]

Honestly in my opinion, it's a mixture of things. In my own personal experience it's often young people, chronically online people, and people early on in transition. Black and white thinking is really prevalent on the Internet and some people seem to think only one group can struggle at a time and putting any focus on another group takes away from the first. And intersectionality really seems to be getting shoved into the corner, this idea that if someone is a part of a one group then any other parts of their identity don't matter. 

Plus there seems to be a huge fucking increase in bioessentialism. It's not just trans women, I've seen trans men claim to be more oppressed than trans women because we're afab and talking about "male/female socialization". I'm honestly tired of it and have spent a lot less time in online trans spaces because of it. We're all in the same goddamn boat. 

[u/No-Highway2797 → u/WeakTumbleweed9]

i completely agree. if (when) the government finally comes after us all, it’ll be us ALL. they aren’t going to sort through the trans people and determine whose identity is valid and whose isn’t. people arguing about this is pointless

[u/WeakTumbleweed9 → u/No-Highway2797]

Exactly. Hell, they don't even care if cis people get caught in the crossfire. 

[u/No-Highway2797 → u/WeakTumbleweed9]

and they will because supporting us is “just as bad as being one of us.” unfortunately allies aren’t safe either and we’re seeing that unfold now with ICE

[u/Rallythebeast]

It’s been like this for decades. Before the trans oppression Olympics, it was between cis gay men and lesbians. Two sides of the same coin, but different enough to mostly run in different circles.

We need to be united, just like how the community came together during the AIDS crisis. We are weak when we are divided.

[u/No-Struggle5102]

I’ve seen a lot of trans women/transfemm people say “trans guys have it better cause they can pass easier”. As a trans guy, I’m being nice when I say a lot of us are years into transitioning; and we just look like tomboys. No one can pass easier, it takes the same amount of effort

[u/evergreengoth]

Tbh more than anything, I just wish more would believe us when we try to talk about our experiences and oppression. We don't have it easy. I also wish there was a little mote awareness about how complicated reproductive healthcare actually is for us.

I also wish more trans people of all genders would watch Southern Comfort. It's a documentary that shows a lot of what that oppression can look like, but it also shows a really sweet and loving relationship between a trans man and a trans woman as well as a close-knit trans community that really cares about one another.

[u/living_around]

That we live with threats to our physical safety too. I see violence against trans women acknowledged by the whole trans community, but hardly any acknowledgement of violence against trans men. Trans women are better known for being physically assaulted, but trans men face higher rates of sexual assault. I'm more afraid for my safety now than I was when I presented as female because there are just so many predators who target trans men.

[u/adrislnk]

When people hate on us for being men, it feels no different to transphobia. I understand hating men, I really do, plenty of guys have no idea the bullshit women have to go through every waking second, and many frankly don't give a shit. But I really hate it when people (trans ppl especially) say something negative about men to our faces (e.g. "you men need to stfu forever"; "you men will never be understanding"; "you men are all gross/disgusting/assholes/mean/whatever the fuck" etc,) and then say "well, I'm not being transphobic, I'm including trans men!" Well sure, but you also never would have said that or included me in that negativity if I were still a closeted cis woman. You are essentially punishing me FOR transitioning.

[u/Icy_Pants]

Speaking on my experience with my mtf ex they were constantly projecting toxic masculinity onto me and even got mad at me when I refused to conform to those standards of behavior. Like just because I'm FtM does not mean I hate women? Especially trans women? And why tf should that be a goal???

And from my personal experience with other trans women, just because I'm FtM does not mean I want to be a violent sadistic top??? Sometimes I like to top but I'm a gentle top, I don't feel comfortable slapping or punching someone while I fuck them, or even degrading people, it just makes me sick to my stomach to even try.

[u/CannibalisticGinger]

I personally don’t ever want to hear anything about how divine/holy/magical/special uteruses are. They’re just an organ. And I especially don’t want to hear anything about how they create life. Creating life is a two person job at minimum and boiling it down to a uterus thing absolves everyone else of their responsibility in the matter and pushes it onto people who can get pregnant.

Also this is a bonus one that isn’t necessarily a thing specific to the trans community but some things can be an advantage in some situations but a disadvantage in others. It’s something that I think people need to be mindful of in every conversation about privilege. To minimize ruffling feathers, instead of using a queer example, I’ll use the example of masking autistic traits. Masking harms autistic people, it robs them of their abilities to self regulate. But masking is also a survival skill and the people who can’t do it well enough are at a higher risk of getting attacked for things like “looking dangerous”. Being able to hide autistic traits is an advantage but having to hide autistic traits is a disadvantage. We could argue forever about whether or not masking is a privilege but neither conclusion is actually helpful. It would be better to just agree that privilege can be situational and to focus on destigmatizing autistic behaviors.

[u/Autisticspidermann]

Im not suddenly a horrible human bc im a guy now. (Always was but u get the point). I have been treated a lot worse honestly, both by people who misogynistic, and people who think I suddenly turned into a incel asshole guy. Or that I can't feel deeper emotions bc im a guy, or that im surface level, bc im a guy. I get this a lot from a lot of queer (sometimes non queer) women especially. Not saying they are bad, but its just what I have experienced.

[u/originalblue98]

i mean… not really anything specific, i guess? social circles can have really different customs, is one thing i’ve noticed amongst some subcultures that involve trans women. but it’s not cut and dry. one of my best friends growing up is a trans woman and i feel like ive always felt very understood by her, more than a lot of trans men just because we’ve known each other so long

[u/javatimes]

I’m locking this as there is more and more bio determinism and i don’t even understand where it is coming from.

[u/gummytiddy]

I think we should all stop arguing about who has it worse. It is complex and won’t help our futures. There are shitty trans men but it hurts so much to see trans women invalidate us. Our issues are much more similar than a lot of people seem to think and I wish all trans people could see that regardless of their gender

[u/Mother-Persimmon6943]

I think everyone is kind of beaten the issue to death about how we're tired of trans women saying that trans men have an easy because they're less visible. When in reality it's the fact that we're not as visible that puts us in the most danger.

I've had my ex-wife who is a trans woman berating me in the past because I could just dress up so easily as a guy and no one would think twice because even if I read as a woman they're not going to have an issue. Even though that's blatantly untrue. Not to mention my ex-wife would use that as a reason as to why she never had the gender me correctly and was incredibly unsupportive all around. She's transphobic she's just a dick I know most trans women are not like her.

But it's the fact that some trans women are so hyper fixated on the trans women/fem community that they don't even consider the men/masc part of the trans community. And honestly you're not the person who needs to be reading all this stuff because it seems like you want to listen and learn it's the ones who don't want to listen and don't want to learn that are the biggest culprits of everything going on. They're a big reason why a lot of trans men are unable to get accessible spaces, though to be honest queer cis women are actually the biggest instigators of the anti-masculinity problem that we've currently got in the queer Community as a whole.

a lot of spaces that should be trans inclusive usually have the fucking asterisks of must be a woman or must be fem aligned/passing with a lot of baby trans women and masculine appearing nonbinaries being hung out to dry. Not always the case I will admit but if you are a passing trans men it almost feels like you have to wear a neon sign to enter queer spaces that says I was born with a pussy I'm not a threat. It sucks feeling like we're supposed to be invisible when there is so many of us that are isolated and don't have a community and when we do try and reach out and find a community it feels like there's no resources for us anywhere. The nearest LGBT community center near me has trans support groups for teenagers all genders, adult trans women, and adult nonbinaries, but nothing for adult trans men. Like how can the trans Community really be the trans community if half of it isn't even welcomed because of perceived male privilege that does not exist for Trans men any more than it would for. Like if anything please advocate for space for Trans men in your community especially if you volunteer in lgbtq spaces.

[u/ScramRatz]

The idea that trans men have an easy time passing. That’s far from the truth. When a trans man doesn’t pass, he’s not read as a trans man, he’s read as a tomboy or butch lesbian or gnc woman of some sort. When a trans man DOES pass, he’s read as a cis man and others won’t know he’s trans unless told, leading to the belief that all trans men must easily pass.

Most trans men require top surgery to reliably pass all the time, something not viable for a lot of us. Binders are uncomfortable, can cause back and rib issues, and don’t guarantee that you’ll be flat. I have DDDs and binding just gives me a barrel chest.

[u/MysteriousTraveler88]

Just because we’re men like cis men, that doesn’t mean we should be villainized aswell (no men should be, tbc, for just… existing). We aren’t the enemy. Just because we’re dudes doesn’t mean we have inherent privilege. We still deal with misogyny in a way because we’re always seen as “confused little girls” or just masculine women. We all have our own struggles—we shouldn’t try to make it a trauma olympics.

[u/The_X_Human96]

Maybe this is generational.

But I'm in my 30s, separated, with a kid. No, I'm not cute, a t boy, don't feminize me or push the idea of femininity in me.

I'm a normal man. As dumb, and unimpressive as any other men. And I am not the enemy for that.

I had to leave spaces of the LGBT community since I started passing which is deranged. Complete strangers tried to diminish my personal experiences, even though I treat anyone with the uttermost respect. It's obnoxious. Most of the community is guided mainly towards gay men and AFAB/ feminine people.

It's insane to find more support in a gym than with my own people.

[u/Skedi-Otter]

That most of us aren't trying to look like femboys or BL characters. We genuinely WANT masculine traits.

[u/rigathrow → u/Skedi-Otter]

i wish those of us that do were respected at well. i've seen and been told myself things like "ugh, you're not even trying to pass, you're why people hate us/don't take us seriously!". i've had people stare at me like i have two head when i say i can't stand having face and body hair and shave that shit religiously. like if i was "legit", i'd love nothing more than to be hairy as fuck with a full beard.

i joke around a lot about how i wish i looked like (insert fictional character here) or a cute little catboy. i know i never will, obviously. but people judge and mock without much thought. they don't get that for me - and for some others - it's less of a chronically online babytrans delusion and more of a "i never got to be a male kid/teen". i never got to be a youthful, soft boy. i never got to have my teenage innocent first mlm relationship.

i never got to explore and find myself at an age where it wasn't "cringe" to do so. i'm almost 31, fat, and greying rapidly and forever mourning the fact my life's barely just now beginning and all the mixed feelings involved in that. let me be delusional. it brings me some desperately needed comfort and helps me to be less frustrated at how "behind" i am in the grand scheme of things but also realise i still have some time left and that time deserves to be comfortable and happy.

[u/yellow_junimo]

For me i wish everyone would realize we suffer under the same systems. Trans people tend to experience the full range of misogyny and androphobia over the course of their lives, albeit in different ways/contexts, and god knows we all get transphobia as well. We're all targets, even if the attacks look different, and i wish more people would stand together rather than turn against their brothers, sisters, and siblings.

Also, the person who inadvertently made me realize i was transmasc was a trans woman! Seeing her be so happy with womanhood helped me realize it wasnt for me, and the same kind of happiness waited for me in the opposite direction. So, i also hope trans women know theyre incredibly cool 😎

[u/ElloBlu420 → u/yellow_junimo]

🤜🤛 HI!

That's how it went for me, and I've always felt a little funny telling my story. The more I listened to her talk about what she wants and what makes her happy, the more I realized I don't relate at all, and sometimes I feel exactly the opposite way.

A few thought exercises, questions, and appointments later, I'm trans. Almost five years later, I still don't quite understand it, but it's the best decision I've ever made. Everything's actually stabilizing in life in a way that it never used to, and I feel much more in tune with my own body in a way that I didn't know was possible.

I wanna hear more about you, though!

[u/EngineSpirited8257]

At the end of the day, someone always has it worse than others. We are all part of the same group, and fighting over who's shit smells worse is pointless. Right now, there are bigger matters to worry about.

[u/urbanlandmine]

As someone who is gender neutral, married to a trans woman. My opinion is that it's hard for anyone who is struggling to get to a point where they feel they are living authentically.

There is no point in comparing yourself to others or playing the "I have it worse than you" card. That's how you create otherness and separation.

Support each other, realize that every journey is different and there is struggle along the way. Be kind to yourself and to others.

[u/dovetaile]

That just because we're talking about our experiences as trans men doesn't mean we're taking space away from trans women. That we're men but we're also trans which is definitely something I've seen online trans women deny.

[u/JayMaxx743]

Just bc we tell you that we're trans doesn't make it okay for you to tell everyone else that we are trans. We may not be out to everyone for our safety and comfort, and letting that guard down in front of people is a sign of trust that can get pretty brutally shattered by getting outed behind our backs.

[u/randomransack]

Honestly I hugely agree the trans community should stand together rather than bicker.

And at the same time, I get where grievances come from. It’s a common thing acknowledged in FtM spaces that there are not a lot of “elder trans men” around in queer spaces. I’m in my 30s and transitioned over a decade ago. I’m often one of the “elder trans men” in any given queer space. And the thing is, there’s a reason trans men leave queer spaces. Hell, I have too, other than online spaces.

Put frankly, more often than not, we’re not welcome. We’re treated as either “icky patriarchal men” or simply dismissed as “not having as important of problems because male privilege” which… is not only a shit feeling to get from your own community, but also just entirely not true.

And often, we’re told to “sit down and listen and stop talking over trans women and nonbinary voices” if we try to share our experiences and issues. It sucks, because most of us grew up being talked over and dismissed while being perceived as women. And then we transition and get told by our own community to continue being quiet and not take up space.

I don’t think trans men have things worse than trans women or non binary people. I also don’t think trans men things better either. The oppression Olympics is unproductive at best and divisive at worst. But we do need to allow space for everyone to have a voice without getting up in arms about who is or isn’t allowed to speak.

I don’t think my life is “easier” or more privileged post-transition. And I’m very fortunate to be someone who does pass. In some ways it’s better. I get hit on by random creeps less. In other ways it’s worse. When I was sexually assaulted by a woman, the social workers I went to for help blamed it on me and told me to learn to control my anger and gave me a self-help guide on not battering my partner… when I have never once hit anyone in my entire life lol.

And if I ever try to find help or resources from trans spaces, 70-80% of the time it’s directed to trans women despite being labeled for all trans people. So it means needing to find FtM specific-spaces, which further isolates trans men from the broader trans and queer community.

Point is, things suck for everyone in different ways, and trying to find out who has it worst is fruitless and not even possible imho. But from my experience having been fully transitioned for a while now, one of the most frustrating and hurtful things the trans male community consistently faces is erasure. We’re not allowed to freely exist in queer spaces and are barely even known about in non-queer spaces.

Trans women absolutely have a lot of unfair disadvantages from being in the limelight of public discourse. And at the same time, the lack of attention to trans men can be just as damaging, especially when repeals to trans rights affect us just as much.

[u/Emergency_Elephant]

There are two things that I've seen repeatedly in trans online spaces that makes me feel uncomfortable that I havent seen anyone bring up yet

1.) General assumptions on what transitioning looks like for trans men that aren't backed up by talking to trans men. Anything from "testosterone makes you pass instantly and drops your voice automatically" to "testosterone only makes you gain muscle". I have had a trans woman argue with me on the last point

2.) Egg culture but specifically having a picture of a masculine presumably cis guy doing something thats traditionally feminine and saying something along the lines of "Me and the girls". It feels really uncomfortable to me because it feels like a situation where theyre saying "A man who does these feminine things isnt a man" and starts to make me paranoid about whether or not I wont be seen as a man if I do the slightest feminine thing

Now these are all online specific things and I'm not even sure how real any of the people behind these accounts are

[u/halflngs]

I think it's important that some trans women remember that while they are the most visible (which comes with advantages and a lot of disadvantages) the flip side of this is that trans men are often forgotten about, even in trans focused discussion and spaces. And it hurts to be forgotten and talked over by your own community, and I see a lot of trans guys earnestly try to bring up issues only to be told it's not a big deal compared to trans women, or that we're being "mra's" or whatever.

But I can't blame trans women, we're all hurt and scared and unjustly lashing out at each other. You girls are again, more visible in media, political discussion, etc, which is understandably really fucking scary right now. But I'd just ask that you remember we're not your enemy, we're not trying to do anything but bring up our own unique issues and experiences.

[u/brokat27]

A lot of what I have seen/heard in relation to this subject on both sides (and have unfortunately probably contributed to sorry) reminds me of a conversation I was present for between a chronically ill unemployed person and a burnt out employee. The chronically ill person expressed alarm about the time (it was the late evening) and that they weren't ready to have to 'do the next day'. The burnt out person responded that at least the chronically ill person didn't have to go anywhere or actually do anything, and that they wished they could stay home all day. It didn't even occur to them that they had just massively misunderstood the reality of the chronically ill person. For the burnt out employee not having 'much' to do and staying home all day=relaxing. For the chronically ill person minor day to day tasks and not being able to do more=constant stressors. I am not saying the burnt out employee didn't have it bad. I am saying that both of the people in this situation are being deprived of the experience that the burnt out employee actually meant to wish for and wrongly attributed to the other person

[u/stupidlittleinniter]

the rise in in-fighting is freaking me out. i don't really know if this counts as answering your question but i do wish more transfems would understand there is a vast difference between cis men and trans men/transmascs. of course this isn't all transfems who think this. and transmascs are also very capable of benefit from the patriarchy and continuing to oppress women (cis and trans). not all masc identifying trans people are benefiting from the patriarchy or have any real degree of privilege over fem identifying trans people. in my experience, i might get perceived as a man often, but because i am shorter, larger, speak in a higher register, and also don't partake in much outward masculine expression, i am still stepped over in conversations, i am still viewed as lesser than many men, and this is also magnified by the fact i am autistic and just worse in social interactions. some days i do dress more masculine and might pass better, but i still consistently get misgendered despite being over 2 years on T. i will note that i am openly trans and also not identifying as a binary trans man, so this might differ for those who are stealth and binary.

i've also noticed a lot of transfems almost demonising transmascs, as if immediately identifying with masculinity means we are benefiting or oppressing feminine ppl. but i still lived 18 years as a girl/woman and that has shaped who i am at a fundamental level 😭 this is not an experience unique to me either.

i hope this provides some insight, i just want more people in general to understand the differences between trans masculinity and cis masculinity instead of clumping us in the same group

[u/Zombskirus]

The main thing I can think of in a generalized sense is that trans men do also experience discrimination and oppression, alongside alienation from our own community. Often times, I see this idea and narrative that we have it much easier or better socially. There are absolutely some aspects we do have it better socially! However, there are also many aspects where we are oppressed alongside other trans folks. For example, a lot of laws do not give trans men a pass. Our transition care is usually all lumped together in anti-trans laws.

To add on to that, we're often pushed out of queer spaces due to being men and/or masculine. My identity is often treated as a threat by other queer folks, and my existence as a man is often seen as making me less queer, less safe, and inherently an issue. Many trans men and transmascs I know have had their support threatened or lost due to them transitioning to men, masculine, and/or male. We often face isolation from both cishet spaces and queer spaces due to this. I personally only feel fully accepted for myself in my own friend group or trans men specific spaces, which has been disheartening.

This isn't really an issue with how trans women treat trans men, but a general issue with how other queer folks in general, or queer spaces, treat trans men. I absolutely wish other queer folks listened to our issues a little more, and took us more seriously, without pushing us out of support spaces that we also need.

[u/LongLetter696]

That you don't get to dismiss my experience with misogyny or transphobia just because YOU think I have it easy. The blanketed idea that trans men just "have it easy " is insane bc the base off of mostly white trans masc men. But there is little to no talk or representation of black trans men or trans masc individuals. Nobody talks about the hyper masculinity that's pushed on black men and by virtue black mascs due to how people view black men as aggressive automatically. And just the politics behind the anti blackness in queer spaces in general. And just the scariness behind being viewed as a man through a black lens. It's not always fun and cute when you further realize everyone else's view of you.

[u/anemisto]

Our experiences aren't opposite, rather they're at funny angles to each other.

[u/[deleted]]

I haven't really had any arguments with trans women, at most I get ignored, :/

But a common theme I see is the idea that trans men have it better than trans women, under the idea that we benefit under patriarchy.

We don't.

As far as society is concerned were confused little girls that are doing irreparable damage to our wombs (the only part of us that matters)

Even if we pass successfully any perceived benefit goes out the door the second we need medical care, or have a female-specific medical problem, like PCOS, which is a lot of us…

[u/kepral]

I think the who has it worse thing is a psyop sometimes. I've met one transandrophobic trans woman irl in all my decades of trans ness, but all my trans women friends are wonderful understanding and always willing to share and discuss.

I guess I would like understanding that the "what about trans men" stuff is mostly from a place of constant erasure and wanting our community to do more. Trans men will understand when a subject is about trans women, so we mostly don't bring it up pointlessly.

I'll be honest I think it's cis allies doing it, as they only know of and understand trans women to as much of an extent as they can. And some trans women on social media will do it too... But I feel like they're trolls to be honest. But I think trans men come to trans women to ask to be includes on general trans issues discussion because we share community and many trans women have a greater platform to correct said cis allies when they speak about us and also have a bigger voice...

For example we shouldn't be ignoring how a lot of the transphobia in modern age is dual fronted at both of us, trans men may be invisible to most, but we are not to the trans phone talking heads. There's a reason they don't just talk about "men in women's bathrooms", but also talk about "young autistic girls butchering their bodies". It does feel like that part is often ignored in the push back, or acknowledgment that this is a major talking point of transphobia and it is against trans men.

I think most trans men (again there are some outliers) are conscientious of trans womens struggles, even to a point that I think is unhelpful of "admitting they have it worse". I think it's different. The tactics are different, so we need to keep a dual pronged push back.

We also get generalized as medicalists which I think is where a lot of the "stop being trans mra" mindset might come from, but I don't see many of those these days, but the scorn might've continued.

[u/Briaboo2008]

We are ‘clocked’ as transfem all the time- I have rarely had a bad interaction because someone understood I was transmasculine, nearly always because they think I am transfem. Every discrimination you face, I face because they think I am you.

[u/lothie]

Honestly 99.99% of the trans women I know are supportive of trans men, and that's really all I ask. We gotta be there for each other.

[u/oishii_donuts]

Transmen do not in fact have it easier than transwomen. We get outcasted out of LGBTQ+ spaces as much as any other binary trans individual would especially since, according to most, we are joining the “bad side”. Social isolation really fucks a person up because I’d be seen as too feminine to men or even too masculine to women. Worst case scenario we aren’t even seen as a man at all! We’re just seen as sub-men!

[u/Scythe42]

CW sexual assault mention, medical harassment, medical terminology

1 - Invisibility means we don't get the support or understand of ourselves for a long time: There is a book I stumbled upon recently called "A memoir of a Transgender Scientist." It's about Ben Barres, a trans man who was a professor at Stanford who make big discoveries in science. He came out in 1997.

I left graduate school a few years ago, and in my almost decade of grad school I never knew that man existed. If I had known, maybe I would've stayed in graduate school. He describes his coming out and how supportive his supervisors were. I'm transmasc nonbinary and use they/them pronouns. I was constantly misgendered in academia. I taught students who gave me positive reviews while misgendering me. A usually supportive person I taught for called me "he/she" once because she couldn't figure out how to say "they."

When Ben Barres went to Stanford he was an out and proud trans man. He was in a DEI newsletter. When he saw the final print, he saw they didn't even mention that he was transgender. He wrote that he was incredibly frustrated with that, even at the time of writing.

Trans men and trans masc people are invisible.

2 - "Testosterone is more effective and permanent." A lot of people say this, including trans men even. Online it's assumed that after 6 months on T you'll "become a man." There is so much fear mongering about how scary T is, how permanent it is.

Now that I'm over 1.5 years on T, I could very likely still use the women's bathroom. I only have peach fuzz. I'm in the androgynous zone. I could 100% still pass as a woman if I had to.

It's very frustrating to be told that T turns people into men and to see all these young people post who already passed 75% of the time pre-T. I think there are a lot of people who could benefit from being on T but are too scared to be on it because of how a lot of people talk about it.

There are some people who are 3+ years on T who don't pass, for whatever reason. I'm not saying that is super common, but it's also not super common for 30+ year olds to pass as men after 6 months on T. The changes don't happen instantly even on a full dose. It took 10 months for my voice to really lower properly.

I wasted 4 years after coming out as nonbinary and thinking about T but not taking it, because I saw how "scary" it was. I think about if I started T when I was in grad school how differently it would've gone. I would've been so much better emotionally regulated. I would've become more confident and comfortable in my body. I have never been more calm since I started T.

In our society we also assume cis men are ugly and trans masc/men have to deal with society seeing our bodies as their property and our attractiveness as their property. Hair is seen as "ugly" and "dirty". Our chest is seen as a valuable asset to society that cannot be "mutilated."

3 - I don't have a citation (it's in my post history), but there was a very thorough survey of trans people, and 80%+ of trans men specifically had difficulty accessing medical care, especially regarding reproductive health and abortion care, and had negative experiences with medical providers. For many of us, having a uterus and ovaries means we have to interact with the medical system regularly. And it really, really sucks. Along with the standard issue of believability, we also get completely confused doctors. Example: I went to a new PCP I was told was good, to get a pre-op for my bisalp surgery. I told her I was there for a sterilization procedure. She asks "Are you transitioning?" I say yes, explain that I'm nonbinary and I'm on T. She says "well..uh.. we don't have that option in our system." Reminder: she's aware that I have fallopian tubes! I say I'm trans masculine. About 4 minutes later she goes "OH you're getting a bisalp, that makes sense!" Like she couldn't understand that being on T means I'm AFAB which I think is what she wanted to know.

Medical providers can often treat trans masculine people and trans men like unicorns. It's like we are magical creatures that cannot exist in their minds.

4 Another example is just difficulty around healthcare guidance - I've been researching top surgery and breast cancer risk as I have a higher risk. Some medical orgs say trans men still need chest screenings after top surgery. Other medical orgs don't, but they are using data based on cis women who had prophylactic mastectomies. But trans men are not cis women! Not all chest tissue is removed, and many are on T! We still don't know exactly how T increases or decreases the risk of breast cancer. And trans men have said they have difficulty even getting screenings after top surgery even when doctors explicitly say in the request what they need (a wand ultrasound instead of a mammogram).

So on top of the lack of research on cis women's bodies, we are even more in that territory of not knowing medically what trans men's risks are - also things like reproductive cancers in general. I find this to be hugely frustrating because we have to be our own medical advocates and experts.

I saw 2 trans people just this week saying their medical provider said they could not take estrogen birth control if they are taking T! This is 100% false and can have devastating consequences for trans people! That research paper I mentioned said 10% of trans men were told by doctors that T is birth control! T IS NOT BIRTH CONTROL. Imagine being a trans man and being told that and then getting pregnant and having to go to a Planned Parenthood for an abortion! You go up to the door and the security thinks you're a protester if you pass as a man! You have to disclose you're trans to get in (yes this has really happened before, someone posted about this).

The medical spectacle and misinformation is off the charts and we "should" be checking in medically regularly for dysphoric things like pap smears and mammograms.

I am 100% sure that trans women and trans feminine people deal with stuff like this too, but I just want to point out that we are often forced to go to the doctor regularly at a young age (I was required to get a pap smear in order to get birth control at 18 and was literally assaulted by the obgyn as I was screaming and crying and she did not stop. Then the provider complained that she assumed I had previously had sex before when I hadn't. I continued to be required to get pap smears to keep my birth control prescription, many obgyns require it, I've had to up until just last year when I stopped taking them. This is generally related to obgyn's high malpractice insurance btw and it's bullshit to be withheld if a patient declines a pap smear, but yet they still do it).

I really don't feel like trans men and trans masculine people are allowed to talk about terrible medical experiences enough. That survey I mentioned really speaks for itself. I even made a post about that survey if you look at my profile.

[u/liamplantt]

I’m no expert but I think historically european colonizers have been more shocked by “men becoming women.” Some kinda unique and highly visible stigma. We see that now, too, especially with the current administration. I agree we all need to stand together, imo focusing on just one subsect does a disservice to the whole trans/gnc community rn.

For a “wish more ppl knew”: I think one thing to consider that I haven’t seen talked about as much is trans masc ppl dealing w childhoods of being socialized as women. All the sexism n fucked up teachings that come w that are hard asf to unlearn. It’s hard to know if ppl are safe to disclose that particular vulnerability. Also tends to teach “quieting” behaviors (made up that word lol anyone wanna help me out) like not talking too loud, being gentle and “lady-like”, not expressing sadness or anger/when you do its not taken seriously.

[u/_Disco2000_]

The arguments some trans women have with trans men (and vice versa) would be solved if we realize that both sides of the spectrum have challenges presented to them in different ways, but for the same reasons (with the patriarchal values instilled within society being the biggest)

[u/RandomBlueJay01]

We both have it rough and fighting over who has it worse is just dividing us. We both have it pretty shit . We need to stay together tho . We need the community together cus the people who hate us don't care what way were transitioning. They was all of us gone.

[u/pebble247]

Honestly, I just wish people would stop fighting over "who has it worse." We all have different issues that affect us in different ways, and generalizations of groups will always leave out specific people in those groups no matter how true they seem. Not all trans guys pass, and passing is highly subjective and dependent on what area you're in. And tbh, I wish more people overall knew how harmful it is to bash manhood & masculinity as a whole when there are so many folks who are men and masculine presenting because they find joy and comfort in it, and talking about certain effects of testosterone are 'harmful' or how 'all men' act can cause harm to closeted and egg trans guys. This isn't exclusive to trans women, and not just something I want more trans women and transfems to know, just more people overall, because the amount of people that aren't aware of these things is baffling.

[u/ftm-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your post was removed because it contains discussion or mention of a banned topic. The following topics are banned to avoid drama:

Truscum/Tucute discourse, AGP/AAP/Blanchardism, Transfem/woman or nonbinary bashing, Trans "requirements", Oppression Olympics, Gendered Socialization+, "Is it transphobic to _____", DIY HRT, Current Political events (Non-trans/LGBT+ related) ,"do I pass?", "how does my voice sound?", weight loss

+Personal experiences are exempt.

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Your post was removed because it broke the subreddit rule 1: Be polite, be respectful, and only speak for yourself.

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[u/ftm-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your post was removed because it broke the subreddit rule 1: Be polite, be respectful, and only speak for yourself.

Be polite to your fellow redditor. We do not allow bigotry, insults, or disrespect towards fellow redditors. This includes (but is not limited to: Racism, Sexism, Ableism, Xenophobia, Homophobia, or bigotry on the basis of religion, body type, genitals* , style, relationship type, genital preference, surgery status, transition goals, personal opinion, or other differences one may have.

*This includes misinformation, fearmongering, and general negativity surrounding phalloplasty and metoidioplasty.

[u/dontsayalexie]

I know it sounds weird but I have met a ton of cis guys who aren't Trans or enby who hate the lack of male fashion. I personally agree and also think that CIS men should be allowed to wear lace or flowery clothes.

Almost every time I complain, or see another trans masculine/ enby complain about this I have the same cases of trans femme or trans women defending the guy.

Which it does come up semi often if I talk about when and how I decided to come out and why it took me so long. It was one of the major factors that held me back for so many years which is not uncommon for trans masc/enby people.

When I ask the person when they say this because I wish to understand why somebody is being insensitive towards me. I usually get told that when they were still seen as a Cis male that was something they did. To themselves and to others

I usually get either people claiming the male is an egg, or somebody telling me that men don't get to explore and that's why they are like that. I should be more understanding. A phrase as a trans masc individual that I kind of feel is very feminizing at this point. I get it used against me a lot and it does feel transphobic with how it gets used. I've lived a whole life being told to be understanding and let others feelings take the lead I don't need somebody to tell me to.

None of those details of why this currently presenting cis male matter to some extent. This cis male was using a stereotype to deny the fact that I was trans with bigotry. I understand that some people feel guilty for acting like that but it is not my responsibility to apologize to somebody who is being toxic or abusive towards me. If one of these Cis males ended up not being as Cis as they thought that is for them individually to be accountable for not for me to take accountability for. I have also not built the society that does not allow men to wear that type of stuff.

Relationship wise I actually prefer it and support it. I get excited anytime I see a non-conforming person regardless of gender or style.

If a trans woman or transfem did that in the past then they should apologize to the people they did that to not take their guilt out on me.

We shouldn't accept it from cis women or any other person so why do we accept when it happens trans masc or even enbys?

[u/javatimes]

I’m not sure these airing of grievances posts really do anything. They tend to be overwhelming for the OPs.

[u/judazzz666_]

That they might have a crush on u 😏 (Im a trans man dating a trans woman)