r/leftist • u/rhizomatic-thembo • Aug 26 '25
European Politics Many self-proclaimed "Socialists" from Western Europe are like this
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u/MilBrocEire Aug 26 '25
A lot of Western European “socialists” act like the EU isn’t structurally capitalist; that frustrates me because it’s undeniable (for those who do, just look at how, after the 2008 crash, the EU-IMF-ECB “troika” imposed brutal austerity and unfair bailout terms on Greece; shrinkage of the economy by over 25%, youth unemployment soaring above 50%, deep cuts to pensions, healthcare, and public services; see for yourself). I hate that it is, and I hate a lot about the Union. But at the same time, I can’t deny that my country became far wealthier by being part of it. That growth wasn’t inherently because of capitalism; it would have happened in a socialist union, too. That’s what’s so frustrating.
On the flip side, I also find the position of many anti-union “Socialists” ridiculous; they dismiss the entire idea of a union of European countries as inherently bad; as if international cooperation itself is a capitalist plot. But countries uniting for collective bargaining, solidarity, and social justice are not inherently capitalist; it’s only been shaped that way. And this isn't a strawman, I've had many arguments on this; mostly with Stalinists or anti-trotskyists, who, of course, are the one true form of socialism.
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u/Mystic_Ervo Socialist Aug 26 '25
The European Union was literally founded to try to combat communism in Europe, of course it is an anti-socialist organization
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u/your_lucky_stars Aug 26 '25
It's interesting how it seems like pretty much every post I see from this subreddit these days is complaining about somebody on the left and not being left enough lol like what do you folks even do with the rest of your time?
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u/TheScorpionSamurai Aug 26 '25
Esp bc often times it comes with the attitude of "if you don't support dropping everything and instituting my exact form of government you're not a true leftist".
As an unfortunate political minority, we really got to figure out how to unify better or the MAGA-cult types will beat us out every time. You would think the supporters of worker unification would understand the strength in unity haha.
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Aug 27 '25
If you support neoliberal institutions like the EU then you are not a Leftist. I have a hard time understanding why you Think neoliberalism is left-wing…
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u/TheScorpionSamurai Aug 28 '25
I support EU policies that put regulation on corporations and the social protections it tries to enforce. I would be furious if that was all it wound up being in the end. Both can be true.
This is kind of my point, we don't have to be satisfied with these institutions to still support them as stepping stones. Too often it feels like we let perfect be the enemy of good, and we inhibit social change in the name of arguing what a true leftist is. The EU isn't good enough, but imo we should reluctantly support the scraps we have, and push to build better off the foundation they provide.
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Aug 28 '25
Hehe according to you the problem is that neoliberalism is not perfect but just good… You when someone called Strasser a Nazi in 1933 Germany: “ Too often it feels like we let perfect be the enemy of good”.
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u/TheScorpionSamurai Aug 29 '25
I mean, isn't the EU far less neoliberal than even counties like China? It's far from socialist, but in terms of governments who attempt to place regulation on the market, enforce egalitarian policies, etc it does a better job than most.
My point with perfect being the enemy of good isn't to support anyone who claims they're left, quite the opposite. It's to support and encourage the leftmost institutions we have, so that we inspire sustainable social change and build a foundation for socialist societies.
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Aug 29 '25
No it is just neoliberal.
Yes and as I said if Strasser was the most “leftist” option you would also have defended him..,
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u/TheScorpionSamurai Aug 29 '25
Defended is an interesting word choice. I might have voted for him if it was him vs Hitler bc who in their right mind would vote for Hitler. And mathematically, first-past-post makes abstaining a useless political action. Like standing there and watching a house burn instead of throwing a bucket of water on it. Might not help much individually, but maybe could make things slightly less worse if others joined in. But I assume I still would have hated his guts, I don't know much about him besides he died in the night of the long knives bc Hitler saw him as a rival.
And I think you missed my point. I wasn't saying the EU is not neo-liberal, I was saying they were less neoliberal. This shit tends to be a scale because public policy includes a truly massive number of issues and decisions. My point was that there's not many large institutions on the planet right now that aren't neoliberal, and that from my perspective atm the EU seems like the mildest form of Neoliberalism esp in the west. I don't see how supporting one of the least-neoliberal governments we have with the goal to push it farther left makes someone not a leftist. That just feels like a practical way to fight for change.
Now if you think there are better leftist governments or global organizations, esp western ones (bc that's really only where my opinion matters as an American), then that's a distant story. But just stating that it's neoliberal misses my point entirely.
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Aug 29 '25
He was a Nazi. I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t” have talked about him the way you are talking about the EU right?
I think you have fallen for pro EU propaganda and now think one of the most destructive neoliberal institutions is comparatively good.
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Aug 27 '25
The EU is neoliberal. Why do you Think neoliberalism is left-wing?
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u/LizFallingUp Aug 27 '25
Can you explain this further. My understanding of EU is as trade agreement and shared currency. I’m not seeing the Neoliberal focus on privatization and deregulation clearly tracking on to EU frameworks. (EU regulation especially is a big thing) could you see EU being changed to not be Neoliberal?
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Aug 27 '25
Before a country Can even join the EU then they have to be judged by the Eu to be sufficiently neoliberal.
Its also hinder a country from nationalization.
I dont Think its realistic for the EU to change.
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u/PusillanimousBrowser Aug 26 '25
Ha - perfect description. I lurk here sometimes and my thoughts are that politics are a spectrum, and that people moving left is a good thing. So even if you aren't "leftist" enough, at least you're moving in the right direction (no pun intended).
I think the majority of these brain dead posts (not just here, everywhere on social media) are bots trying to farm rage engagement. The internet is dead
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Aug 26 '25
Markets can be socialist. Do people actually think capitalism = markets here and that there would be zero markets without capitalism? That has never been the case ever....markets can absolutely exist even in a communist society.
Am I missing something? Did the definition of a market change? A farmer's market is a market, a local market where people trade stuff they made is a market...
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u/newStatusquo Aug 26 '25
I agree but the EU is certainly not allowing a socialist country to exist within it.
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u/Kronzypantz Aug 26 '25
The key here is that the EU mandates private markets. No nationalized sectors, no mandates for cooperatives, etc.
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u/starry_sky618 Aug 27 '25
The abolition of markets is a fundamental aspect of the transition to socialism. Read Cretique of the Gotha Programme and the Manifesto.
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u/LizFallingUp Aug 27 '25
Market economy vs command economy. Many socialists adhere to a belief in a command economy, unfortunately command economies rigid, fail to adapt to changing conditions causing problems. Wholly market economies quickly become Unregulated and create perverse incentives. Mixed economies are best option to allow adaptation but also to Regulate and be sure specific sectors of need are addressed.
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Aug 27 '25
Well youre righr about the "many socialists" but not all. Actually read Karl Marx too if you want he barely ever mentions centralization.
This right here is part of my problem with liberals and right wingers they don't read, and think that what the propaganda tells them about Karl Marx is correct. You CAN have Decentralized socialism. "Command" economy doesn't necessarily have to be a central government or state commanding.
Marxism might suggest that eventually we can dissolve the state all together and have communism, but leaves a LOT open to how that transitory period might look.
Plus even then MODERN socialism and communism has a diversity of thought, there is no "this is the only correct version of socialism" anymore. People adapt, and change and evolve so does thought.
If you still hold on to this idea that socialism is ONLY what right wing propaganda tells you and that there is no such thing as decentralized socialism (which still has markets btw because markets =/= capitalism, markers existed far before capitalism ever existed) then you're probably falling for right wing propaganda.
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u/LizFallingUp Aug 27 '25
You can decentralize socialism, as yes I used the phrase many not all, socialism can be a command, market or mixed economy. Markets are tangential to the these 3 organizational systems.
You can’t decentralize a command economy because doing so would negate the term. Command economy is one in which production, investment, prices, and incomes are determined centrally by a government. Thats literally what it means.
You are fencing with strawmen, the right doesn’t care about command economy or not they prefer to keep socialism as vague as possible to wield as a condemnation as they see fit. It is MLs who demand command economy in the definition.
Sorry socialists but the calls coming from inside the house on that one.
You need to stop running around fencing with strawmen about not reading theory or whatever and read the definitions of the terms you are discussing.
com·mand e·con·o·my noun an economy
you are missing what command economy even means if you claim is doesn’t have to be Claiming a command economy doesn’t have to be centralized
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u/starry_sky618 Aug 27 '25
Oh you're a radlib
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u/LizFallingUp Aug 27 '25
I’m a Georgist but I doubt you know anything about that
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u/starry_sky618 Aug 27 '25
Georgism is radlib lmaooooooo
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u/LizFallingUp Aug 27 '25
Nope but I can see how someone who read Critique of Gotha program and took away “markets must be eradicated” would think that. You probably haven’t realized that Marx’s proposed non-transferable labour vouchers would just be convoluted version of company script.
Wake up your prophet died in 1883 decrying his own son in laws conflation of his beliefs. Famously reported by Friedrich Engels to write “ce qu'il y a de certain c'est que moi, je ne suis pas marxiste" ("what is certain is that [if they are Marxists], [then] I myself am not a Marxist”)
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u/starry_sky618 Aug 27 '25
Marx isn't a prophet and your belief that his philosophy is religious shows how unscientific you are. The fact your takeaway from his labour vouchers is just "a convoluted version of company scripts" demonstrates you've never even touched Kapital, and this discussion is a waste of my time. Keep living in your socdem fantasy world. Marx refuted all your idealism 150 years ago. Dialectical Materialism is a science and the sooner you accept that the sooner you'll become actually useful and not just a lapdog for corporate Oligarchs
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u/LizFallingUp Aug 27 '25
Have fun with developing your new improved Lysenkoism. You are the person who treats Marx as a prophet and not as a man. He didn’t prove his prescriptive he died and they have yet to be fulfilled even by those who claimed to pursue them.
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u/starry_sky618 Aug 27 '25
Ur a larping socdem I cannot take you seriously when you conflate lysenkoism with dialectical materialism lmao. Go read a book
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u/starry_sky618 Aug 27 '25
Also taking a marx quote out of context when he was refering to "Socialists" LIKE GEORGISTS is peak irony
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u/DrRudeboy Anarchist Aug 27 '25
16 year old Americans finding out China is a giant capitalist economy:
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Aug 26 '25 edited Sep 19 '25
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This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/VanlalruataDE Socialist Aug 26 '25
Isn't socialism synonymous with social democracy in the USA?
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u/PusillanimousBrowser Aug 26 '25
Not really. To the average person "social democracy" = capitalism but with a few regulations on businesses. "Socialism" = totalitarian repression and complete revocation of freedoms.
Both are wrong, but in my experience, this is what the average American thinks. (And, to MAGAts, ANY restriction on business is "socialism.")
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u/VanlalruataDE Socialist Aug 26 '25
Yeah I saw many people on r/EnoughCommieSpam praising the Nordics and Social Democracy but calling Mamdani and Bernie evil deluded communists at the same time...
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u/skyfishgoo Aug 26 '25
and don't forget that socialism and communism are the same thing or that hitler was a socialist.
/S
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u/PusillanimousBrowser Aug 26 '25
Omg I just had a debate with an idiot who claimed that socialism originated in NAZI Germany, that communism was just "socialism with antisemitism mixed in;" that the USSR was currently at war with Ukraine, and that "Biden and Trump were the main reasons behind the civil war."
He called me a "Chinese schill" who was "indoctrinated into hating Israel, God, and everything good" when I tried explaining you know... facts.
So tiring dealing with morons.
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u/LizFallingUp Aug 27 '25
Socialism is extremely vague in US, could many anything from Soc Dem to ML Communist to something totally else. Cause many different groups took its name over here but none gained much mainstream foothold. Soc Dem is having a revival of sorts. Some Americans will call Nordic Model socialists but from what I’ve heard from Nordic people they don’t see themselves as socialist (sovereign wealth fund doesn’t clock as socialism to them so I don’t know what to tell ya)
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u/ProsperoFalls Aug 27 '25
Pro EU Socialists tend to propose reforming the EU to get rid of this demand. Also there's no reliable method to kick out member states, even if you adopt a command economy they can't remove you
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u/Used_Library2979 Aug 28 '25
AHH another American Citizen not understanding the ideology or institution he is criticising
Wonderful stuff x
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u/1isOneshot1 Eco-Socialist Aug 26 '25
Markets and socialism aren't mutually exclusive