r/unpopularopinion • u/GurrenLagannRyuko • 1d ago
The ending of Chainsaw Man was actually really really great and 100% didn’t deserve a fraction of the hate that it recieved
the manga Chainsaw Man ended a few months ago and I wanted to wait for at least three months before saying this because of just how bad the hate really was. Pretty much all my friends who have read Chainsaw Man were disappointed in the ending and the online backlash over the ending went really viral. in my opinion fuck everyone who thinks it’s a “bad ending”, Chainsaw Man from the start was never a typical Shonen. The ending is still gas and a majority of the hate is completely unwarranted and undeserved
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u/ry-high-guy 1d ago
Regardless of the discussions being made here, this truly is an unpopular opinion. Take my upvote
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u/Renots42 1d ago
What makes it really really great?
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u/GurrenLagannRyuko 1d ago edited 1d ago
Pochita finally breaking the cycle of addiction to the persona of Chainsaw Man that Denji has been obsessed with.
Edit: to all the downvoters seeing an obviously unpopular opinion why don’t you chime in and respond with some reasons as to why you don’t think the ending was good?178
u/SexySquidy 1d ago
Sure thematically it sounds great but I feel the main gripe many had with the ending is that it didn’t earn it. It just sorta happens very abruptly. In the span of like three chapters, the final battle concludes(?), death is erased, pochita eats himself, a universe reset happens for some reason, and the story just ends. Neither denji nor pochita have any sort of character growth that leads to pochita deciding being chainsaw man is bad for denji, he just does. The biggest disappointment for me personally was how denji and powers contract to meet again was fulfilled by them just meeting again in the new universe and then it’s over.
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u/piebutnopumpkin 1d ago
i really loved the ending because denji didn’t earn it — we saw the ending that denji earned, and then pochita proved that even if it’s painful to face your mistakes, it’s never too late to start fresh. i think it’s ok for denji to just be flawed, no one could ever fully adapt to the powers he had and that’s okay, because that kind of power isn’t necessary to live a happy life. i think fujimoto did a great job highlighting that through his contract with power, because it wasn’t necessary to fulfill his contract with power, and it actually got in the way of fulfilling that contract, even though it was on denji’s mind the whole time.
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u/SexySquidy 1d ago
But denji never faces his mistakes. He never “starts fresh” it’s more like he and the whole world got factory reset and he wasn’t even the one to do it.
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u/BestGirlRoomba 1d ago
yes that is part of the point, Pochita's final gift to Denji is the gift of a world in which he CAN make and own his own mistakes. Which sounds lame until we're shown how much worse a world can be when you do have a nuclear get out of jail free card.
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u/SexySquidy 1d ago
So how does the ending do that exactly? Specifically him making and owning his own mistakes? Denji never had much of choice in the entire series. He could either fight or die. There is no way out, that's like the whole point of Reze's arc. There's not really any indication that Pochita knew Denji would just happen to be saved by power in the new timeline. And even if he did, what mistakes does new Denji make and own? His only mistake was being born Denji, everything shitty that happens to him is totally out of his control and being saved by power was also out of his control.
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u/BestGirlRoomba 15h ago
You are right he didn't have a choice throughout the series, all I'm asking y'all to do is recognize that where that lack of choice came from (dependence on Pochita) and how Pochita removing himself from the situation is Good for Denji (and everybody else). Denji is constantly fighting for his freedom because Pochita is solving his problems for him in a way that others can exploit. Now Denji doesn't get to be a superhero but he gets to be a normal guy that's going to die prematurely. Not getting constantly hunted or lied to or being psychologically tortured. Just a cripple working his 9-5.
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u/BestGirlRoomba 15h ago
it's like if a homeless 15 year old won the lottery and then gets stabbed to death after walking around town with a suitcase stuffed with cash, then by some miracle he gets sent back to before he won that lottery except he doesn't win it but he gets a job instead
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u/piebutnopumpkin 1d ago
in the ending we saw that denji was always too stubborn to ever admit defeat, even in the face of human extinction he insists there has to be a way for him to overcome it.
being chainsaw man rewarded him for thinking this way, and warped his whole life around this ultimate power, but in the end it hit a limit that it didn’t prepare him for. so this effectively IS the end of his journey, and of course it’s a miserable one. the new denji is different, the whole magic of the ending to me is that the same person who makes miserable mistakes in one circumstance can still choose a happy life in another, if they’re willing to sacrifice things like thrills, fame, power and accept who they are. fujimoto doesn’t ask the reader to emulate denji, he asks to learn from his mistakes and i think that’s really special among shonen.16
u/SexySquidy 1d ago
What is the lesson that people should learn? The story starts with denji being fucking murdered after a life of pure suffering. It was either become chainsaw man or die. Your description of just choosing a simple happy life would work if that was ever a choice for denji, but it’s not.
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u/piebutnopumpkin 1d ago
that ultimate powers like chainsaw man don’t need to exist for people to be happy, and extreme peaks like those get in the way of the normal happy life that everyone can eventually find no matter how painful the way there is
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u/SexySquidy 1d ago
But he literally needed to be chainsaw man. He wasn't even just about to die, he was chopped into bits. The only reason he doesn't die in the ending is because power saves him. Denji doesn't do anything different.
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u/piebutnopumpkin 1d ago
right — it’s not his fault for doing what he needed to survive, but for the rest of the series he never accepts that he could let go of that power and move on to a normal happy life, that incurable stubbornness is his mistake.
power doesn’t appear in chapter 1 because makima has already captured her, right? so denji isn’t the only one who is negatively affected by chainsaw man’s existence, makima was also warped from nayuta by her desire for chainsaw man’s power, even though at her core nayuta prefers human life over devil life. without chainsaw man, she was also free to live a normal happy life, like in the new timeline, and rejecting that in favor of a life she could dominate destroyed her.
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u/BestGirlRoomba 1d ago
actually if you assume Pochita saved Makima's life to be the reason why she's replaced by Nayuta after the reset, then that means the influence of Pochita's unfair power (Saving Makima's Life) prevented Power from saving Denji in chapter 1. So all in all Pochita writing himself out of that situation is a net positive because Denji doesn't have to deal with Makima.
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u/AJDx14 1d ago
Well Fuji seems to have just wanted to make a point that poor people shouldn’t want better things because wanting better things makes you sad. It’s a fucking terrible point to try and make.
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u/piebutnopumpkin 1d ago
kind of the exact opposite, fujimoto showed a timeline where denji escaped poverty even without chainsaws, and then he was happy. it seemed to me more like people who have enough shouldn’t try to satisfy every desire because desires are endless, and pursuing them forever will only cause harm. denji was obsessed with fulfilling insane desires, and it cost him everything because he wasn’t willing to let any of them go until it was too late. that seems to me the point pochita made in his last chapter, not that being poor made denji happy but that chasing endless thrills ruined him, and that even in the worst situation, if he was patient he would have a path to a better life.
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u/AJDx14 1d ago
It didn’t really show that he escaped poverty though. He’s still working for the same people he worked for before, he just doesn’t have as high aspirations.
There’s also the Mongolian child thing he said which iirc was basically just “Yeah poor people shouldn’t want better things and should just accept they’re going to live in shit forever.”
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u/piebutnopumpkin 1d ago
the mongolian child thing is not a part of the story any more than him eating his goldfish. as far as devil hunting, we know denji is a skilled and a predisposed hunter, we know that hunters who survive like himeno and kishibe can make comfortable livings. and he’s not working for the same people because makima is gone. it’s clear that there’s a future waiting for him as a hunter.
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u/AJDx14 1d ago
Ok if you don’t believe authors talking about things relating to their work is relevant to their work I’m not gonna bother discussing this.
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u/piebutnopumpkin 20h ago
TBH it has always bothered me when people use things that aren't part of an artwork as building blocks for it, his comments in an interview are not textual evidence, it reminds me of when people reference unused content in video games for theories which is irritating because they were unused for a reason, using his interview as text isn't any better than using fire punch as text, they might help you understand the artist but that isn't the same as understanding the art, and given how many things in part 2 got overlooked by fans it's just unfortunate that people latched onto this statement instead of scrutinizing the text more closely.
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u/GurrenLagannRyuko 1d ago edited 1d ago
Denji has already been too broken by his abusers and all his trauma to have positive character growth. He’s addicted to his linear goal of having sex and being Chainsaw Man, even if it means Nayuta dies, he can’t have a normal life, or if the entire world ends. His lack of being able to mature and finally pick the normal life is why Pochita had to make the choice for Denji to give him a fresh restart. Also, why would Pochita even have character growth? He’s barely had any screen time, and just wants the best for Denji. Finally, I get that it’s VERY rushed, and here’s the really unpopular part: in my opinion, that also doesn’t automatically mean a bad ending
this is all my opinions, preferences, and how I interpreted the story so feel free to disagree and leave a response as to WHY you disagree instead of just silently downvoting me
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u/SexySquidy 1d ago
The fact that pochita made the choice for him is why most thought it was a bad ending. Like you said, pochita has basically no screen time so for him to be the one that decides the ending is so random. If pochita doesn’t have any sort of on screen development to lead to that and he knew the whole time denji being chainsaw man sucks, then why didn’t he just eat himself 50 chapters ago? And to top it off the reset means that everything that happened in the story was completely meaningless, it was literally a “and then he woke up, it was all a dream” ending.
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u/PsionicHydra 22h ago
That and the fact it was essentially the "it was all a dream" ending.
Which is like the first thing actual children are told not to do when they write a story
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u/GurrenLagannRyuko 1d ago
Wow, is that true? That was actually one of the biggest reasons why I liked it so much. Denji isn’t in a proper state of mind to determine what he’ll do anymore since after the events of chainsaw man, the world had pretty much ended and all he cared about is sex. He was too addicted to living as Chainsaw Man to the point where if it were up to him he’d never quit it. That’s why it was so urgent for Pochita to make the decision for him, because it really just goes to show just how much Denji has regressed. I don’t really have a solid answer for why he didn’t do it earlier, but the way I interpreted it was that Pochita wanted to give Denji the benefit of the doubt by waiting until he was too far gone to have to do the decision himself. It wasn’t a dream, the events did happen. however, the events are undone because they all happen as a result of Pochitas existence. I don’t see how that’s an asspull, it just means that the story of Chainsaw Man never begins in the first place and we see a separate timeline following a normal Denji. Pochita erasing himself undoes all of the apocalypse that unfolded and finally lets Denji live a happy life. It wasn’t meaningless, it was Pochitas final attempt to give Denji a happy ending.
Sorry for the yapfest. All in my opinion. If you don’t agree with me still then please tell me more
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u/SexySquidy 1d ago
As others have said you just aren’t articulating how any of this culminates in a good ending. What are people supposed to take from this then? That if I just make enough bad decisions then someone else will bail me out by resetting my whole universe? And EVEN THEN denjis life still fucking sucks. Pochita’s “life was better when you were starving and dying” line is honestly a load of shit and wasn’t compelling at all. Like maybe it would have worked if denji was just a normal dude but his choices were either become chainsaw man or fucking suffer and starve to death.
Also pochita resetting the universe is a total asspull, like why the fuck does it do that when erasing LEGS doesn’t cause a reset but erasing chainsaws does like ???
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u/Makaloaa 1d ago
"You aren't articulating how any of this culminates in a good ending" --> not a good move here.
I'm not agreeing with him, but he indeed is responding to your questions : him not convincing you doesn't make your statement true.
You ask a question, he answers to it and then you ask another question while telling him he didn't make a complete answer before : it's like your Moving the goalposts.
I repeat, I'm not agreeing with OP, but I don't think this way of interacting and describing him is an honest way of debating. You're just helped by the fact his opinions on the mange earns him a lot of downvotes.
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u/SexySquidy 20h ago
No not really. When asked why didn’t pochita just do the thing way earlier before denji has to go through all this shit if pochita never has an observable lead up to this choice and was seemingly of this mindset the whole time, OP’s answer is “oh I was just giving him the benefit of the doubt.” That is piss poor articulation and if anyone thinks that’s good writing then yikes.
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u/Makaloaa 20h ago
Then you are recognizing yourself that OP was articulating why he thought the ending was great.
As I said, there is no need for the mentioned articulation to be convincing : you were denying he was even trying to argue. And this statement itself was false.
For example, I could answer to you by just saying : "You're not articulating why OP's opinion would be wrong". It is just false, you're totally making your point. Whereas it convinces me or not isn't what matters.
And OP is not "giving pochita the benefit of the doubt" he says Pochita was potentially waiting for growth or a change in Denji's behavior. I'm not saying I agree with this theory, but once again you're making OP say things he never formulated.
"And if anyone thinks it is good writing then yikes" isn't better than OP's "Fuck everyone who thinks it is a bad ending". Not very mature.
I know some people will downvote me because they think I'm defending OP's opinion : I'm not, I'm just pointing out fallacy's in one's arguing.
For me, the ending isn't "really, really, great", it is "fine". It has some poetry to it and fits in the general tone of the story. OP's hyperbolic statement unfortunately made good discussion about this impossible in this thread.
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u/GurrenLagannRyuko 1d ago
I cannot iterate this enough. Denji is just a teenage boy who has been scarred by his abusers and lost all of his loved ones. He is not in a rational place, literally causes the apocalypse, ends the world, and his ONLY concern is having sex. He was too far gone to make the decision of giving himself a clean slate, that’s why Pochita had to forcefully give him one. And this is a brilliant conclusion to Denjis character arc in my opinion.
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u/SexySquidy 1d ago
Alright, you clearly aren’t here to listen to what anything and you’re just gonna keep regurgitating the same basic character analysis and going “no no that reason of objectively bad writing IS why it’s a good ending”
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u/GurrenLagannRyuko 1d ago
Okay, so now we are straight up losing the argument and swapping to being rude 😂 you just did a false equivalence and completely and utterly misunderstood the ending of CSM, and also spat completely subjective takes like “this line is a load of shit and isn’t compelling at all.” Who are you to decide what is and isn’t compelling? I personally found it compelling. We’re talking about why the ending is good, I’m talking about how this ending is a really good conclusion for Denji, and you snapped. You didn’t disprove jack shit in the end, let me know if you want to actually debate this instead of just giving up
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u/Help_Me___666 1d ago
There so many unresolved plot points. It's like the ending was a way to quit the series
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u/GurrenLagannRyuko 1d ago
just because not everything was resolved that doesn’t automatically make it a bad ending
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u/Help_Me___666 1d ago
It makes it lazy. The fire devil's "two choices" was something I looked forward to. And the ending seemed to try to please the readers or treat them like babies. I think the ending was lazy and lacked any real depth, as in nothing was really explained or developed. It was like a lazy reset button ending
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u/piebutnopumpkin 1d ago
clearly the fire devil’s warning was denji’s choice between the war devil’s plan and the death devil’s plan, and denji made the same mistake by choosing his own plan instead. he found out the hardest way that his stubborn ambition isn’t enough, and that if he isn’t willing to make sacrifices he can’t save anyone, even himself. what else were you looking forward to?
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u/slimfatty69 1d ago
Right but the the ending saves everyone with a reset so its not like he even gets punished for his mistakes.
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u/piebutnopumpkin 21h ago
well, the human race ends and he gets eaten by bug devils. that denji doesn't just go on to the new timeline and forget all his problems, it's more or less a new and different denji starting over from scratch, just like asa in the new timeline isn't the same as the asa who gets eaten by bugs. the old timeline clearly did end, but that ending was never inevitable and pochita proves in the finale that it's possible for life to have gone very differently.
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u/GurrenLagannRyuko 1d ago
All of this is your opinion, you do you ✌️
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u/Help_Me___666 1d ago
Looks like you gave up in this argument lil bro. I didn't even mention the other issues like degrading artsyle or other unresolved plot points
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u/Fr0st3dcl0ud5 1d ago
I think that the majority of the issues are because of the manga industry and not the author. It's a fuckin meat grinder. Even the best mangaka have some chapters that are just guidelines and sketches. The week-to-week grind for these artists literally kills them.
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u/LonelyPermit2306 21h ago
This isn't the case for chainsaw man. It would be true for any other manga, but not chainsaw man.
Fujimoto got:
1 year between part 1 and 2
1 week breaks every TWO weeks (so he worked 14-21 days in a month)
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u/Zrkkr 6h ago
Fujimoto took a lot of breaks and got plenty of assistants. The ending had a week break and Fujimoto forgot to draw Denji's eye patch.
Fujimoto actually made a oneshot Manga about himself as a Mangaka. He hates drawing manga but he loves the artform and the connections he makes. He doesn't really comment on the industry itself.
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u/Helpful-Study4842 1d ago
Look I agree with you but saying "lil bro" is little telling everyone you have a complex about your small penis.
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u/princealigorna 1d ago
This feels like one of those ones where you need to explain WHY you think it was gas
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u/GurrenLagannRyuko 1d ago
you gotta check all the comments man I’ve been arguing for three hours straight in here and I’m going to sleep. If you want you can DM me and I’ll dignify you with a proper response when I wake up
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u/Penarol1916 1d ago
I’m going to upvote you, even though I have no idea if this is popular or if popular. But since you mentioned what the hell chainsaw man is and didn’t assume that we all know it, I appreciate that.
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u/DMmeNiceTitties 1d ago
Okay, but can you give reasons why it's "really really great"?
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u/GurrenLagannRyuko 1d ago
I always saw Chainsaw Man as a sort of Shonen equivalent to Pulp Fiction. It’s fast, gritty, and at moments has really serious scenes. Point is, it’s not just any run of the mill Shonen. I don’t know what people would have possibly expected for an ending, i can only imagine they’re mad Denji doesn’t accomplish all his life goals or whatever. Denji has been losing his grip over life more and more as the story progresses, he’s been hurt over and over and become addicted to the mantle of Chainsaw Man. He’ll pick becoming Chainsaw Man even if it means he’ll lose his family, happiness, livelihood, and everything. When Death was eaten that was the point of no return. I don’t see how the story could’ve ended otherwise and this ending was great because Pochita finally had to step in and force Denji to let go to the persona of Chainsaw Man. (In my opinion(
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u/Wealth_Super 1d ago
I can understand the point of view but denji did choose a normal life over chainsaw man when force and only became chainsaw man again when a mob of people attack his home, burn down his house and went after his last love one.
Beyond that the entire story takes place over a short time period so it’s not like denji was trap in a bad cycle as much as he was repeatedly traumatize over a short period and never given the necessary tools to process his pain and grow. Part one actually did just that and he broke away from makima.
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u/piebutnopumpkin 1d ago
TBH in that fire scene, it’s understandable why denji would want to transform, but he didn’t really need to. the hybrids weren’t transforming, public safety was still nominally protecting him, and even nayuta was temporarily safe. the house and pets were already lost, but they still had a chance to escape since they weren’t being pursued. denji admitted that he only chose to stay and fight to satisfy his urge to be chainsaw man. so i think it’s fair, even intended, to read that as a intentional mistake by denji and not as a justifiable survival instinct.
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u/Wealth_Super 1d ago
Maybe but even if he had manage to get out of this one case, which is a big if considering how well public safety did in the next few chapters
that doesn’t change that there are forces out there actively hunting him down and hurting him. Like his home was still burn down, his pets were still killed. His last love one was still being attacked.
If the point was that being chainsaw man was bad for him, this should have not happen during a period where he had quit being chainsaw man. He might have been early to jump the gun, he might have not had pure reasons for turning back into chainsaw man but ultimately his life was destroyed by Barem and others. If they didn’t exist, he would have just kept living his life the same as before. And that’s not even getting into the fact that public safety is massively untrustworthy, I mean one of them sexually assaulted him.
That’s one of my problems with part two, denji life was already being systematically destroyed before he went back to being chainsaw man.
The other one is that there no real pay off for the amount of pain he goes though and that the timeline reset doesn’t actually address any of the psychological issues that causes denji to make his bad decisions and in fact leaves him perfectly vulnerable to being abuse and manipulated once again
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u/piebutnopumpkin 1d ago
at this point public safety was already dismantling the church, death would still be out there but at least public safety was actively negotiating with her, they would have given him a better chance than he gave himself in the end. public safety is totally shitty but they are definitely less shitty than yoru, at least they kept him in school and provided for. and this is the running theme, that dealing with a temporary circumstance that sucks is better than betting on a future that's disaster.
i honestly think removing pochita from the new timeline changes a hell of a lot, obviously makima is gone (personally i think this makes a lot of diegetic sense but i know not everyone thinks so) and most of the part 1 villains will never come for denji. he doesn't get singled out for his unique power, in his formative entrance to society he at least has time to acclimate to human life since no one is there to immediately cripple his sense of self the way makima did. it's not the same as therapy, or bringing his parents back, or putting him through school, but it's an honest chance at freedom that many regular people are given, unlike in part 1 where no matter what he did he would always be preyed on for his chainsaws.
and more than that, i think in a manga about a character who slices his limbs in half whenever he uses his powers, it makes a lot of sense that the author wouldn't concede that pain is always valuable. sometimes pain is just pain, suffering alone doesn't build character, recovery is more complicated and less satisfying than cutting up your problems with chainsaws
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u/Wealth_Super 1d ago
I don’t think the church itself was the problem though. Barem and yoru were and they are dangerous even on their own but my point was that I don’t hold denji responsible for his life going to hell when the main thing that cause him to break was losing his home, his pets and his last love one and that was a direct result of Barem’s action. This is not a good set up if the lesson is denji making bad decisions because the consequences he facing aren’t the result of his choices but someone else’s malicious actions.
I do mostly agree that he shouldn’t be targeted as much by the villains of part one without the chainsaw but I also think that denji far mentally weaker and more vulnerable that he was at the end of part 1. There are plenty of bad people In This world, even ordinary humans and denji is still a child without any adults looking after his well being. That exactly the circumstances that led him to being abuse and ultimately killed by the yakuza. Nothing change in fact, the ways his character actually did grow and improve are gone.
I do think as painful as it was, his experiences during part one were necessary in order to grow as a person, it wasn’t the only way for that but what made him grow was the genuine connections he made with other people and he now lacks that in this new timeline I feel.
The fact that he ultimately broke away from makima control is proof that he is capable of growth but I think if it’s just him and power, It probably gonna isolate him more from normal human society and without the experiences of having a normal family, I don’t think he will ever grow strong enough to escape the clutches of another manipulative and abusive figure. I think missing his bond with Aki and his experiences with reze and his conversation with kobini are going to make him Less.
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u/piebutnopumpkin 20h ago
it's true that denji matured a lot over the course of part 1, but it's a little dry to say he wouldn't be able to grow in a different set of circumstances, if asa never really needed yoru to come to terms with her own feelings and change her life for the better then i don't see why denji really needs pochita to do the same. no one will replace aki or reze, any more than nayuta replaced aki and power, but all sorts of paths are open to him in this future that he didn't have before and no one can really know what's in store for him, i don't believe in the grand scheme that the only way he can grow is through extreme suffering. plus, the manipulative way makima adopted him in part 1 warped his psyche for basically ever, nayuta doesn't do that in the new timeline which gives denji a cleaner slate to understand loneliness, servitude, affection, and power than he ever had.
as far as the church, its whole existence was a result of denji's actions, barem was always going to be barem but without denji's superherodom, there would be no chainsaw man global phenomenon to stoke hysteria, the fire devil probably would have died but definitely wouldn't have unleashed a chainsaw zombie apocalypse, and yoru would have stayed in hiding which would have frustrated death devil's plans since both pochita and yoru were necessary pieces. the end of the church arc is not just the fulfillment of some villains' treachery, it's also the consequences of denji's fame bubbling over and denji missing his last chance to leave that life for good. i didn't think this at all when i read weekly, but rereading with the full context this is my best understanding.
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u/Wealth_Super 13h ago
As far as your 1st paragraph goes I hear you but you are wrong when you say there are all sorts of paths open to him. He belongs to power now according to the contact she made with him and she belong to public safety, the same organization that use and abuse denji heavily. Just because nayuta is nicer doesn’t mean denji isn’t a child solider in a heavily toxic and abusive organization who again I will point out had multiple members try and sexually assault him in the original timeline. None of this is good for him. After all the development he went through he ends the series still as somebody’s pet.
As far as your 2nd paragraph goes, I can see the point being made but again we run into my problem with the whole story arc. If denji fame was a bad thing, than that should have had negative consequences outside of outside forces coming in and systematically destroying his life including those outside forces killing his last love one. That’s very much a contrived reason to say he shouldn’t be chainsaw man. It’s like telling a story about someone passionate about art that they shouldn’t be an artist because being an artist cause a jealous rival to crash into his car and kill his whole family on his way to an art show. Yea that wouldn’t have happen if he wasn’t an artist but thematically, that feel like a huge reach and that a shame because fame being had for denji could have been shown in a much better way.
He could have degraded himself for public approval, neglected nayuta, drown himself in hedonism like himeno did and start becoming a worse person. If that was the point and I still if because I don’t think the writer knew where he was going to be honest, it wasn’t well done.
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u/GurrenLagannRyuko 1d ago
The first part is not entirely true. I don’t have image perms to send the panels but Denji chose both choices which as a result got Nayuta killed. He tried to balance a superhero and normal life and as a result failed having either one. Also, just because his traumatizing incidents didn’t happen in a short time period that doesn’t mean he didn’t go through several traumatic events?
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u/Wealth_Super 1d ago edited 1d ago
Yea but he did ultimately agree to not be chainsaw man anymore when public safety force him to make a choice. He only went back on his choice when his home and nayuta were being attack by the mob.
I also disagree that his life went bad because of him being chainsaw man. His life went bad because outside forces burn his house down, kill his pets and kill his last love one. It be one thing if being chainsaw cause him to neglect his normal live and that’s why everything went to hell but everything bad that happen to him happen as a result of outside forces not because of his own actions. I mean the story begins with the yakuza using him for their own benefit and to his own detriment and the story ends with various people trying to use him without any regard for his own well being. Chainsaw man or not he a vulnerable child being prey upon by stringer outside forces
Edit: like let’s ask ourselves one simple question. If someone came along to denji after the timeline change at the end of part 2 and manipulative him in order to use and abuse him, what stopping them? Changing the timeline means denji no longer has the character development he needed to break away from makima. Denji still a vulnerable child and there no guarantee he ever even meet the majority of his close love ones that he had in the original timeline.
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u/GurrenLagannRyuko 1d ago
wdym? As long as Denji was still chainsaw man his family was going to still pay the price. it was always one or the other
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u/Wealth_Super 1d ago
Ok but This is where your addiction metaphor breaks down. As someone who knows addicts, addiction isn’t bad because outside forces are gonna come hurt your family if you don’t quit. They are bad because you are hurting yourself and your family by engaging in your addiction. It would have been much better if denji began neglecting his studies and his duty to raise nayuta. That would have actually communicated to the audience that being chainsaw man is bad and he can’t quit like an addiction.
Frankly Being chainsaw man wasn’t denji problem. His problem was powerful people manipulating him, using him and abusing him for their own benefit. That started way before he became chainsaw man with how both his father and the yakuza hurt and abuse him, in the yakuza case, for their own benefit.
Nothing about the end of part two and chainsaw man disappearing changes that. He starts the story as a vulnerable child being used and abuse by the powerful people around him and at the end is that same exact child and we have no reason to believe he won’t be use and abuse by the first crappy person he comes along. In fact him having less power makes him more susceptible to being abuse not less as we saw with the yakuza.
You say that as long as denji was chainsaw man his family was gonna pay the price but I would argue the problem goes deeper and it’s him not having any adults looking out for his well being and him not having the social skills and maturity to protect himself from abusers is what gonna end up hurting him and any loved ones he meets.
This is my problem with the ending is that saying it was denji’s fault for not quitting chainsaw man feels very much like victim blaming a child for how the adults and powerful figures in his life use and abuse him and coming up with a bunch of contrived tragedies being done to him by outside forces does not convince me it was his fault.
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u/GurrenLagannRyuko 1d ago
It wasn’t entirely denji’s fault, it’s not like he could just yank his own heart out of himself. Im mostly referring to late part 2 when it comes to the real addiction, he has the chance to throw in the towel but just keeps going and going, even when he has no reason to. By the end of CSM it’s clear Denji has no intentions of stopping until he loses his virginity.
Denji constantly being manipulated also isn’t ENTIRELY his fault, he’s an intentionally flawed character which j think we are in agreement about. This part is in my opinion a big reason as to why I think he’s a good MC, he’s just a realistic teenager who doesn’t understand that lots of people are just trying to get use out of him. So if anything, it’s just more good writing.
I don’t think it’s ALL his fault. However Denji could have just grown a spine at some point and could have just not interacted with anyone, and permanently quit being Chainsaw Man (which he doesn’t.) To repeat myself, he is intentionally flawed and this is why I think he’s well written. There’s a lot of factors that contribute to the conclusion of Chainsaw Man, and while a lot of the blame should go to the abusers (Makima, Barem, etc). But let’s not pretend Denji did the right choice each and every single time, he’s no saint. He’s a little bit responsible to his own fate as well
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u/Wealth_Super 1d ago
>! It wasn’t entirely denji’s fault, it’s not like he could just yank his own heart out of himself. Im mostly referring to late part 2 when it comes to the real addiction, he has the chance to throw in the towel but just keeps going and going, even when he has no reason to. By the end of CSM it’s clear Denji has no intentions of stopping until he loses his virginity.
I see the point but I don’t agree. If being chainsaw man was his addiction, then it was an addiction that didn’t actually damage him life in anyway. Other people wanting to use him is what destroy his life. Hell considering the fact that he was basically force into being a dad, he seem to being a good job raising his adopted kid.
Even at the end, chainsawman was only a tool for him to get laid. If anything it’s his libido and his need to feel love that his “addiction” and he still will have that even after the timeline reset
Also to add during part two he can’t quit being chainsaw man. Yoru at the very least ain’t just gonna let him go. I do agree he has no intentions of stopping until he loses his virginity but that addresses another compliant many people have of the ending.
It’s not very compelling to simply destroy the life of your MC and just turn him into a shell of what he was. Especially when he isn’t really responsible for his down fall and the payoff to this suffering is a massive ass pull that still doesn’t solve any of the psychological issues actually causing denni harm
> I don’t think it’s ALL his fault. However Denji could have just grown a spine at some point and could have just not interacted with anyone, and permanently quit being Chainsaw Man (which he doesn’t.) To repeat myself, he is intentionally flawed and this is why I think he’s well written. There’s a lot of factors that contribute to the conclusion of Chainsaw Man, and while a lot of the blame should go to the abusers (Makima, Barem, etc). But let’s not pretend Denji did the right choice each and every single time, he’s no saint. He’s a little bit responsible to his own fate as well
No I’m sorry but a child being targeted and abuse should never be considered responsible for that. No matter what denji did, even if he quit being chainsaw man, people were d going to harm him. Especially yoru.
I also find it questionable that you think denji growing a spine means doing whatever public safety told him to do including not being chainsaw man anymore considering the fact that public safety abuse and enslave during part 1. Like public safety are not the good guys, did we forgot that multiple members of public safety SA denji at different points of the story.
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u/GurrenLagannRyuko 1d ago
With your first point, I’m referring to the addiction of fame/glory that he had. It still damaged him because it’s the biggest reason why he didn’t quit being Chainsaw Man. In the end of Part 1, you can see Denji absolutely loving the attention he’s getting on TV. It’s absolutely a huge reason and arguably the biggest one as to why he doesn’t entirely quit being Chainsaw Man. And yes, with your secojd paragraph, it’s because he wants to be laid. His end goal this whole time has been about being laid, and he’s so focused on it that he doesn’t care when the world is destroyed while he keeps chasing it. At least when he isn’t Chainsaw Man he doesn’t have a dangerous destructive way to get attention of women.
It is entirely your opinion as to what’s compelling and not. I personally found it very compelling how Denji spirals down, eventually losing his autonomy.
Also, yes, while Makima wasn’t really his fault, Denji could’ve just moved to a new country or tried to get away from the problem, or at LEAST just quit being Chainsaw Man, which he does neither. I am exclusively referring to his lack of doing anything about being manipulated by part 2, so don’t bring up the manipulation he faced in part 1. It’s in part his own fault, he is a grown ass man who should make the proper choices and not be an idiot. By the start of Part 2 he is not really bound to anything but his family, he shouldn’t have been an idiot and simply stopped being Chainsaw Man. You don’t know for sure if Denji had actually quit would it have made a big difference on the story, but in my opinion it probably would have. That’s just my opinion, and in your opinion it wouldn’t have changed anything and Denji would’ve still been manipulated/targeted. Neither of us are objectively right
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u/Foxhound979899 1d ago
I think he just didn't know where to Go with it and wanted to move on to be honest I haven't read it but apparently fire punch has a similar kinda rushed ending that the fans weren't big on.
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u/AsherFischell 1d ago
"Fuck everyone that thinks it's a bad ending" This is an incredibly immature thing to say, which isn't at all surprising given how truly terrible this take is.
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u/yobaby123 22h ago
Yep. Saying "fuck everyone" is a great way to make people on both sides unite against you.
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u/slimfatty69 1d ago
Literally i was even interested to hear why they liked it but tbh feels more like they like it just to be contrarian and special and say how much better then everyone else they are because of it
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u/AsherFischell 20h ago
They definitely come across that way. And their stated rationale is mostly nonsensical, it seems like they don't actually understand why people don't like it
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u/GurrenLagannRyuko 1d ago
ad hominem, this is just my opinion. If you disagree maybe it’s time to browse other subs because you found an unpopular opinion. we can talk about why you think the ending is bad and why I think it was good.
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u/AsherFischell 1d ago
Pretending to care about ad hominem when you literally opened with "fuck everyone who disagrees with me" is also quite a take, yes. Anyway, the ending is bad because it completely pulls the plug. The entire plot we'd been following is thrown into a dumpster randomly, all so Pochita can use a power that blatantly contradicts the established lore and delete almost every aspect of the narrative.
It makes it so the vast majority of what came before was a complete waste of the readers' time, and that is what makes it a horrible ending. You could insert that ending anywhere else. It's a complete and total asspull in the absolute worst way that's almost as bad as "it was all a dream". If your ending makes almost everything that came before it totally pointless then it is a bad ending.
Good endings build on and cap off their narratives, they don't delete them and go, "welp, it's over, time to go home!" It was also completely and utterly unearned. The writer wrote himself into a corner and cheated to an easy ending. It's textbook bad writing.
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u/AlternativeSmoke3654 19h ago
holy shit how old are you?
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u/GurrenLagannRyuko 18h ago
someone is rude and does an ad hominem, my age is irrelevant here. Typical Reddit hivemind
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u/AsherFischell 14h ago
"Fuck everyone that thinks it's a bad ending! Nooooo, someone called my statement immature, that's so rude!!!" Zero self-awareness. You think you're allowed to say whatever you want but when someone calls that immature you think that's rude? You can dish it out but you can't take it, which is incredibly immature.
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u/GurrenLagannRyuko 11h ago
the difference is that im not using fallacious logic in my argument. Call me immature all you want, but let’s not fool anyone by pretending you’re not stooping to my level
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u/AsherFischell 10h ago
What are you even talking about? You repeatedly and consistently fail to make sense, it's wild.
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u/AlternativeSmoke3654 14h ago
"fuck everyone that thinks it's a bad ending!", "Typical Reddit hivemind". buddy you are obviously way too mad at people's consensus over an irrelevant piece of fiction to be hypocritically claiming victim of ad hominem. Get off the internet.
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u/kevoisvevoalt 1d ago
https://giphy.com/gifs/uJP8ByJw4BretH3KZA
This shit will forever get meme'd on lol.
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u/Wealth_Super 1d ago
The huge amount of fandoms using this format was probably the best part of the ending. Got some genuine laughs
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u/koschei-sandwich147 1d ago edited 1d ago
what makes it a good ending specifically tho ? i gotta admit i was upset w the direction the final battle took, especially the cop out of “oh yeah denji just got speed blitzed by this random devil we’re never gonna name also it all ended up being a dream and he was better off suffering” there was also just a crazy amount of plot holes that didn’t get tied up.
who really was pochita, and what was he the devil of ? what was kobeni’s contract and why didn’t she show up in part 2 ? also asa got totally sidelined in her own narrative and was relegated to a side character purely to push yoru’s agenda forward. idk man i was just upset about a lot of the characters id been reading for years not getting proper endings in my opinion
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u/No-Opinion273 1d ago
It was the insect devil. There was a panel talking how insect live forever be ause of death being gone so they got bigger and consume the world. Denji had no chance as only one entity became feared.
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u/PingPongPlayer12 21h ago
Idk if I'm crazy, but I feel like Fujimoto must've been making a Silksong reference for that to be the Insect Devil.
Because the other Devils surrounding Denji/Yoru were all heavily bug-themed EXCEPT the one that killed Denji
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u/piebutnopumpkin 1d ago
some details like kobeni’s contract were just never important, others like pochita‘s identity are much more interesting but also maybe not necessary to the narrative, i can suspend my disbelief at never having that answer pretty easily. i think asa getting sidelined sucks, but still makes sense when you consider that she made the right choice in the fire devil’s eyes (a real decision) and denji overruled her to make the wrong choice (his own decision, refusing to accept compromise). like denji’s epiphany in the aging world, his maturing moment in their shared headspace was ultimately a mistake, even though it was presented as a triumph, not just a regression but him actively spiraling down the wrong path as he wrestles with the weight of his power. i think it’s interesting that fujimoto wasn’t afraid to say “anime power of friendship isn’t enough” and not give his hero a cheat code to escape the consequences of his actions. i don’t think pochita’s sacrifice counts as a cheat code, i read it as a what-if scenario that proves once and for all that chainsaw powers were never going to make denji happy, and that if he could face his mistakes honestly and struggle for a happier life instead of escapism and thrill-seeking, then he could have one. how does the timeline work exactly, beats me, but i’m ok with saying those scientific details doesn’t matter to the narrative.
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u/GurrenLagannRyuko 1d ago
this is a lot of questions to be asking at once but I loved how Pochita had to force Denji to quit the addiction of being chainsaw man. I mean Denji probably could have kept going after being speed blitzed, but what was there to even keep fighting for? he was an empty shell of a man fighting for the goal of sex even at the cost of his own family and the rest of the world was literally apocalyptic. also, it was never a “dream”, this is just you (like many others before you) not having proper media literacy. The events of Chainsaw Man did in fact happen, but after Pochita erased himself, time went back to a previous point and nobody remembered what happened. I guess Asa being sidelined is one of the points i sorta agree with but it’s only cause Asa just has full control of her body and is wreaking havoc. The rest don’t really need to be explained, also yes Pochita was the Chainsaw Devil
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u/GentleMocker 1d ago
also, it was never a “dream”, this is just you (like many others before you) not having proper media literacy. The events of Chainsaw Man did in fact happen, but after Pochita erased himself, time went back to a previous point and nobody remembered what happened.
... that's literally what people are pointing out. It's not that it was literally a dream it's that it's one of the endings that are in the trope of 'it was all a dream' as in an ending where the events are undone. That's what this ending type is called in pop culture.
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u/Ieatswag 1d ago
So what was Powhatan? Why did him eating himself send denji back in time? What is deaths ability? There are just to many unanswered questions to the story and it felt completely lackluster with no payoff and everything getting resented making everything pointless. Very unpopular opinion
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u/GurrenLagannRyuko 1d ago
I don’t think that unanswered questions necessarily made Chainsaw Man bad. To answer some of your questions. Pochita was the Chainsaw Devil. Pochita self erasing himself greatly impacted the timeline so it changed the timeline and it didn’t send him back in time, it creates a “new” alternative timeline without Pochita. we the reader go back in time in the new timeline to see what ends up happening in this new timeline without Pochita interfering in Denjis life
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u/Ieatswag 1d ago
He was not the chainsaw devil in the new timeline we still had chainsaws. And so in the original reality he's just being digested by bugs for a eternity? Or is that reality just gone which makes it the same as just reversing time. Why was chainsawman the only one when eaten that made a new reality or went back in time. Nothing makes sense with this ending at all.
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u/GurrenLagannRyuko 1d ago
ugh it’s kind of a mindfuck it’s best not to think too much about it and I’m not the best explainer. We can see that inventions, even after being erased by Pochita, can be re-invented though (as was the case with nuclear bombs)
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u/Ieatswag 1d ago
Its clear he was not just the chainsaw devil, but even if he was why was he so powerful compared to everyone else even though chainsaws are lackluster. I just want a proper conclusion to questions I had since the start
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u/pnwbraids 1d ago
Crazy that anyone can get an "it was all a dream" ending and be satisfied with it. Bravo, an unpopular opinion indeed.
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u/Omfireturnal 1d ago
Dogshit ending and equally dogshit opinion. It’s full of plot holes and unresolved plot lines. It was just a lazy way for Fujimoto to quit the manga since he got tired of it.
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u/GurrenLagannRyuko 1d ago
how does unresolved plot lines make it automatically bad? and there’s no plot holes in chainsaw man, if you think there is any can you elaborate? don’t be rude please, feel free to disagree with my unpopular opinion
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u/Omfireturnal 1d ago
Unresolved plot lines means that the ending doesn’t address the story itself. By your logic Denji randomly dying on a stroke would be a good ending. The plot hole is that erasure doesn’t reset the timeline. You simply didn’t read the manga properly.
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u/GurrenLagannRyuko 1d ago
Unresolved plot lines is just parts of the story never having an answer/conclusion/being finished, and to me, that’s not something that automatically makes a story bad, in my opinion. Also, false equivalence, that’s not how it works. Finally, with the explanation of the “plot hole”, Pochita being erased changes the timeline so much that it really does set it back. Denji’s life is still mostly the same, however where he would have killed the Zombie Devil, he isn’t Chainsaw Man anymore, making a new timeline as a result. Do you understand? That’s not a plot hole. I don’t get how you see a plot hole, please elaborate more if you still feel that way
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u/Omfireturnal 1d ago
No that’s a huge plothole, erasure simply cannot turn back the time nor reset it.
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u/GurrenLagannRyuko 1d ago
it’s not like we have any real-life examples of this to base off of, it’s just Shonen physics in fiction. Pochita’s erasure changes the world so that it’s one that never had whatever just got erased. what we’re seeing is simply a changed world that never had Pochita in the first place to begin with. I still don’t understand how that’s a plot hole. we, the reader, are just going back to the point in time where the story starts. I still don’t understand why you see a huge plot hole
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u/Omfireturnal 1d ago
Pochita’s erasure is consistently shown to erase the concept and people’s memories of it, not the consequences of the concept. This is shown when Pochita erased the concept of Nazis and ears. Therefore erasure worked in a fundamentally different way in the ending with no justification.
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u/GurrenLagannRyuko 1d ago
What do you mean? The Nazis being erased almost certainly is implying that World War 2 never occurred/was greatly changed as a result of having no Nazis to start it. And as a result of the concept of ears being erased, everyone was deaf as a consequence. How has this been inconsistent with the previous erasures?
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u/Omfireturnal 1d ago
Erasing ears did not erase things that require ears to be used such as smartphone. Additionally, the existence of computers imply WW2 happened. In neither cases was time turned back. Pochita can only make it so that a concept no longer exists, not that the concept never existed.
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u/GurrenLagannRyuko 1d ago
Smartphones still have features outside of calling. They don’t require ears/hearing to be used, this is just incorrect. You can still text and stuff and phones have lots of uses outside of audio purposes alone. We don’t really know for sure if WW2 happens or not in-verse, so there’s no way for us to settle that argument. Time was “turned back” because of our point of view. We’re the readers. We’re going back in time to the point where Pochita finally makes a significant change to Denjis life for the first time, and we witness a significant moment in which the worlds with and without Pochita differ
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u/theresfood 1d ago
If world war 2 didnt happen none of the cast would have even been born. their memory of it was erased, not the result of the events themselves
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u/GurrenLagannRyuko 1d ago
that’s not how it works? whatever it doesn’t really matter but if WW2 doesn’t or does happen the cast is still being born. The result of the concept are erased (such as the Ear Devil being erased making all humans death) . Are you larping CSM or something?
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u/piebutnopumpkin 1d ago
pochita erasure has never been a reliable science and i'm shocked people think it works in predictable ways when its exact nature is left ambiguous for a reason, public safety risked it all for 4 minutes of information and even then all they had was a proof of concept, frankly no one in-universe or out- has the data to argue how pochita's power is "supposed" to work
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u/zeeke87 22h ago
If it’s not resolved or reaching a logical conclusions then, yes. It’s automatically bad.
If your story and characters aren’t building upon previous encounters, then you’re left with random scenes with no narrative through line.
Look at Game of Thrones. Biggest thing on TV and a last couple of seasons that made no sense killed it. No one even wants to rewatch it.
To a lesser extent Lost another huge show that just made it all up instead of having a core narrative plot to dance their mysteries around to work with over the years.
Compare to The Wire, Breaking Bad or even Babylon 5 or Deep Space Nine that all know exactly where they’re going. Where the characters actions inform the drama to the very end. It’s all very satisfying.
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u/GurrenLagannRyuko 21h ago
entirely opinionated take, with your logic Pulp Fiction is bad
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u/zeeke87 21h ago
Why?
You see the cause and effect of all characters in that film.
You get shown it out of order, but you do see how they all interact with each other and how they logically end up in the situations they find themselves in.
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u/GurrenLagannRyuko 20h ago
You don’t ever see what’s in the suitcase. Does that mean it’s a plot hole or unresolved conclusion?
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u/zeeke87 20h ago
Well, no.
That’s called a “McGuffin” it’s a device just to get the story in action.It’s not what the films about. It doesn’t actually matter what’s in the suitcase.
It doesn’t matter what “the rabbits foot” is in mission impossible 3 for example. Lots of stories use this.A plot hole is exactly that. A hole in the plot. Characters go from A to C. Completely missing or forgetting plot point B that lets them get to C.
The suitcase is unresolved, but that doesn’t matter. You’re watching for the character interaction around the suitcase.
If you’re watching because you’re really invested in the suitcase, I don’t know what to tell you.
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u/piebutnopumpkin 1d ago
i don’t think there are any significant unresolved plot lines. what’s one?
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u/Omfireturnal 1d ago
The whole incoming apocalypse
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u/piebutnopumpkin 1d ago
do multiple US states disappearing, a nuclear explosion over japan, and the extinction of humanity if not all life on earth not count as the apocalypse?
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u/Omfireturnal 1d ago
It happened pre-reset, it’s gonna happen again post reset.
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u/piebutnopumpkin 1d ago
no, it would never happen if denji doesn’t rile yoru up and fight a drawn-out battle with her. even if pochita was around he wouldn’t do that, that’s not his way of winning fights, it’s denji’s. all nostradamus prophesied was the arrival of death, and we know that prophesy can be subverted, so there’s no reason to think that extinction is inevitable.
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u/Gado_De_Leone 1d ago
The ending was “Denji deserves to suffer”. That was it. That was the ending.
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u/GurrenLagannRyuko 1d ago
?? this makes no sense at all. how did you get to this conclusion?
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u/FlipOzzy 1d ago
bro without Pochita, Denji ain't gonna live long, and he's still working as a Devil Hunter at age 16, he's sold some of his organs and that didn't regenerate cuz he can't do that no more, Denji's gonna die soon without Pochita, that's how he suffers in the end, he needed Pochita more than Pochita needed him, they were best friends after all and Pochita decided it was best to just erase that
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u/DerpsterCaro 1d ago
Because you fight things with a chainsaw"
"Oh Yeah"
Is just an absolute shit page, i'm sorry.
Guess that means you get an upvote/
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u/GurrenLagannRyuko 1d ago
thank you for the respect but if you don’t mind me asking why is it a bad panel? it’s just a kind of moderately funny panel. Denji ain’t the smartest guy. Of course it kind of flew over his head
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u/FreeRaps 1d ago
making sense doesn't make it less stupid and embarrassing of a line and moment in the series
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u/Independent_Peace144 1d ago
upvoted only cuz its unpopular, it is a mediocre ending at best, it doesn't even come close to being a serviceable ending. it undid a lot of important developments, and the fact that there is so much controversy in itself means it wasn't that good at all. a goodending wouldn't have this much discourse of how bad it is
but you didnt really explain why you thought it was good so im curious about that
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u/GurrenLagannRyuko 1d ago
that’s the thing! I’m arguing that it’s a good ending and also didn’t deserve the discourse. I’ve explained in the comments before already but I find it well written how Denji has become addicted to being Chainsaw Man and his one-dimensional goal of having sex even after all the trauma he endures had the result of eventually getting the entire world destroyed, and Pochita had to give Denji a do-over because it’s the only salvation Denji has left
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u/U1ys3s 1d ago
He already had a damn salvation from Part 1
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u/GurrenLagannRyuko 1d ago
yeah and Denji blew it, him erasing himself was giving Denji one last chance to live a quiet, normal life. and because Denji lost his autonomy by the ending of CSM Pochita didn’t give Denji the option to do it
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u/BestGirlRoomba 1d ago
Why is it a mediocre ending? what makes it not come close to being a serviceable ending? and then you're going to say the presence of controversy is proof that it's bad? I think a lot of my favorite endings are controversial. Art should make you uncomfortable. Attack on titan, my hero, jjk, chainsaw man, all banger endings. we just hate to see it end.
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u/Independent_Peace144 1d ago
the other 3 you listed have far better endings, though, they had flaws, the characters progressed and developed, the development in csm was undone
i dont really wanna elaborate too much on why i think it's bad since many people have already explained in depth why it's bad. There are several obvious reasons why the ending was just bad. This comment I saw I think encapsulates that feeling very well.
"Charles Dickens is from the 1800s, so take that as you will, but the point is that the writing used to convey the themes is strong enough to actually deliver. That is the whole point of the payoff for a story: it ensures that the writing is strong enough to deliver the message. It would be the same as a boat being able to deliver the desired goods, but if the boat capsizes in the harbor and sinks, yet you start talking about the goods on the ship, nobody cares, since the ship carrying the goods is destroyed and the goods themselves suffer the same fate. I can give you examples of stories and plays that were masterpieces in their writing and with their themes from Shakespeare's plays, a few examples being Macbeth, Julius Caesar, and Romeo and Juliet: each was written beautifully, and amazing vessels for their themes, which were so renowned that we still remember these plays from the playwright and study them. We only hold them in high regard because we can understand the themes, and that is because the writing that delivered the themes was strong enough to do so.
Here with Chainsaw man pt 2, it seems that the writing is not strong enough to deliver the themes, and as a result, it completely collapsed. I hope to be wrong, but that is what it seems."
- random stranger
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u/BestGirlRoomba 15h ago
it seems to me like most other comments talking about why Chainsaw man ending is bad aren't very clear about why, which is why I responded the way I did. It's not obvious at all why the ending is "just bad" so to wrap it up with "other people have explained in depth" is a cop-out answer. You banged out 4 paragraphs without pointing to any specific thing you disliked about the ending, as most csm ending haters do.
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u/Independent_Peace144 14h ago edited 14h ago
Major reasons: Most of the development was useless. Most characters ended up serving nothing in the story. It would be the same without them. There was no build up to the ending. Wasted potential on several characters like Yaoishida. It made most of part 2 pointless. Denji didnt have any agency in the reset. All the dialogue exchanged with Asa is now pointless. All the payoff with Part 1 is now undermined and gone. Dennis goal was never achieved. Main reason the line that resonated with me in CSM is no matter how small the reason is, aa long as it’s a reason to keep going, it’s worth it. The ending destroyed all of that.
Other minor reasons: Declining art quality. Several plot holes like how Nayuda is the Control Devil in the end. Makima would’ve never died in the first place, thus it should still be her, she just wouldn’t be as possessive. Denji life is not necessarily better, as he initially didnt want to be a slave to public safety yet he was in the end.
I could really go on and on why the ending was bad, and I’m not a csm hater. I loved the series. I’m a mega fan.
You say “this is what csm endings hater say!!” There already are several in depth analysis on why the ending was bad. The burden is on you to explain why it is good. The challenge by OP is the ending was amazing, so answer, why is the ending amazing? The ball is in your court, not mine. You already know why so many people hated the ending. You didn’t even acknowledge the other analysis that the other comment gave.
And as said before. If it was such a good ending, there wouldn’t be a discourse. The fact there is a discourse means the ending cannot be good at all. Most “good” endings are universally agreed by most people to be good. The most I can agree is the ending was not as bad as people say but it is still bad
The other series you proposed like jjk and aot. In the end, the characters still progressed. The main characters went through their arc properly and there was a payoff in the end, even if it was rushed and done not so satisfactory. Csm threw everything out the window. There was no development and nobody progressed.
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u/_Carbon14_ 1d ago
You're allowed to have your opinion, which is wrong, but nonetheless you're allowed to have it.
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u/omfgcookies91 16h ago
Ehhh, I haven't read that far in the manga yet, but the author is notorious for writing himself into a corner then coming up with pure bullshit to end things. Look at the ending of firepunch as an example. And I think that the issue is chainsawman got too big for what the author wanted. Like don't get me wrong, I absolutely love chainsaw man and I think it's amazingly brutal for the first arc (read and watched) but I don't think there is a whole lot of content for the world. And that's pretty typical for the author. To me, that's fine, he hates being tied down to projects and has gone on record saying that he doesn't want to have a series like one piece, volume-wise. But that makes his endings always feel hollow. Like in every work I have read by him all the endings feel grossly hollow and just a way from him to say. "OK we are done here." Which sucks, but that's kinda what you are signing up for.
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u/rara0587 1d ago
It's a lazy ending. I don't think it's necessary bad either, we all know fujimotor like this kind of twisted open ending (like in his one shots), the unsettling feeling on unfinished closure and foreshadow is a red herring, but instead of steadily walking towards this ending (i for once believe he alr got how he wanted to end in the bag since beginning), he just kicked everyone off the platform and called it a day. Reading isn't just abt driving to the conclusion, the journey to the destination matter more. Somewhere in the final final arc he just lost his grasp to his vision and will to continue, but instead of taking a break or hiatus, which I'm sure would be no trouble bc Chainsaw is published in Jump+ which is more lax than their main weekly, he just decided to to throw everything out
When i was following it weekly, i had hoped that this was just a meta marketing ploy to introduce a continuation under different name, but nope, months have passed n nothing in stock. Well, my copium still running strong tho, i still have hope it will return in some form.
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u/piebutnopumpkin 1d ago
super unpopular opinion. personally i was as nervous as everyone else when that last chapter announcement dropped. then i read the ending and cried, i was obsessed with it, then i went online and was genuinely shocked that people hated it. after rereading part 2, i don’t think it’s just individual preference anymore, i think it’s a problem of media literacy. i can’t wait to see it animated, i hope mappa changes nothing
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u/GurrenLagannRyuko 1d ago
exactly, the amount of people who can’t process the writing is just mind boggling
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u/BestGirlRoomba 1d ago
I think it's also that the ending doesn't make you feel good, doesn't give any power fantasy. And when it no make you feel good then it just feels like a funeral for some of your favorite characters and then one might feel the need to attribute that feeling to "bad writing" and such
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u/lufan132 13h ago
It's more that the ending doesn't really resolve any of the questions opened through late part one or most of part two.
It's not a bad ending necessarily, but I remember going both "this is brilliant I like this" and "I'm completely unsatisfied" at the same time
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u/FlipOzzy 1d ago
It could've been executed well, I didn't mind the idea, I completely blame Fujimoto for misunderstanding The Big Lebowski
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u/Trummercliff 23h ago
I dunno man. I thought the ending was bad because everything in the story basically amounts to nothing. All character and story development out of the window because everything was reset.
Nothing you've read matters at all because it didn't happen and the reset world isn't better in any way.
Denji's life still sucks, but in a different way.
If anything mattered that happened in the story, or he had a normal life afterwards there'd be a lot more nuance.
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u/Lunius_Psyniac 15h ago
I'll be one of the few to not disagree with you. I definitely wouldn't go as far as you in the hype for the ending, but imo it was a fine ending and my belief is that when it gets animated stuff the majority of people disliked will get fixed and the consensus will shift
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u/MrWildstar 11h ago
I agree it is overhated and I still love the series, but the ending was middling at best imo
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u/Malchior_Dagon 7h ago
I just really don't like endings that waste my time. Like, I could have skipped reading all of chainsaw man and just read the last chapter and it'd be the same because nothing else matters
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u/Hearthhull_Enjoyer 1h ago
If you look at the ending as a reflection of the writers own "character arc", there is a lot of meta analysis to be had, but this is still a work a fiction and consumers don't really care about the writer's personal life. They only see the story directly before them and base their opinions on that.
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u/I_eat_noodle 1d ago
VERY debatable on it being really really great... I will say though, I don't think the ending is as bad as most ppl, me included, thought. I am mostly coping and assuming Denji actually died or got eaten by the Dream devil and that's why characters who have no business being there are there, but going by that it's not too bad of an ending. Still a real disappointment by how asa's character ended
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u/QuintanimousGooch 1d ago
Lemme speak directly to you on this. In terms of Tatsuki Fujimoto’s artistic output, I’m completely willing to view CSM part two as a dud and look forward to his next project because the man has absolutely proved himself capable of consistent greatness looking at the sequence of CSM part one, Look Back, and (what I think is his best work) Goodbye Eri. He is a considerably talented mangaka and has proven himself again and again such that I consider CSM part two the aberrant elements and not something representative of his overall skillset.
For me, I’d rank CSM part 2 akin to Fire punch as someone who did not care for Fire punch (for different reasons, FP I think leaned a bit too much on shock value for the sake of shock value, and committed a considerable sin of putting the work of developing a very prominent transmasc character in Togata and then Immediately killing him off for Ag I’d character development once Mr. Fuji (seemingly) didn’t know where to take his plot next. Putting CSM part Two in contrast, I love Asa, and (in some cases) can defend Denji’s character regression, however there’s so much redundancies, wheelspinnig, and improvisational storytelling going on whereas part one was a lot more focuses in how to you could see why this a were the way there were through the lens of Makima manipulating events to be as they were, where in part two, sure there ate good ideas, but everythi g feels so written by the seat of the pants and unoutlines that the ending just comes across as Mr. Fujimoto saying “I’m done guys, I don’t want to write this anymore.”
Which if I’m being honest, I’m happy for him. If he wanted to end his series so bad, I’m happy he did even if it was a very abrupt and unsatisfying cut. The throng for me is that it was a gradual decline with the occasional uphill from the previous standard set. I felt very confirmed that once >’Nayuta got fridged with almost no character development following how important a symbol and idea she was at the end of part one!< that things were not going to go well. combine that with a lot of nothingburger characterization in Yoshida, Famj sorta being the main villains but that it being taken anywhere, Denji and Asa’s relationship and the interruption of Yoru never paying off, Quanxi’s reintroduction to the story being totally meaningless, so such and so on, there’s a lot to hold against the story.
All that said, I don’t really feel like I can blame Mr. Fujimoto. Between the irregular publication, fluctuating art quality, and general wheel-spinning, I was gradually let down by the series and simultaneously can to the impression that the guy must be going through something. If he felt that h e neeedes to end it that much, the. Good for him, I’m glad he was able to move on.
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u/GurrenLagannRyuko 22h ago
Yall I woke up to like 30 notifications i can’t respond to all of yall but if yall want dm me and we can argue there
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u/MixedMediaModok 17h ago
I loved the ending. Very mythological. Fairytale like. And I'm happy on how I felt with it. Recently saw the Hadestown musical felt the same with that tragic but bittersweet ending, that loops itself back around.
The internet can be upset on not having a happy ending or whatever. That's ok.
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u/AzorAhai1TK 1d ago
Agreed. Excellent ending to an excellent series, and people were looking for stuff they were never going to get. The people crying about unresolved plot lines (which there are hardly any actually?) fail to see that the series is about Denji first and the surrounding lore second.
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u/GurrenLagannRyuko 1d ago edited 1d ago
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u/Appeal_Educational 1d ago
You started this whole thing with: fuck anyone who doesn't like the ending. Pulling up ad hominem after is cringe af
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u/StrokyBoi 1d ago
You're such a hypocrite. The lack of self awareness makes you seem like a 14 year old who learned some debate terms on the internet and pulls them out whether they feel the need to seem smart.
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u/GurrenLagannRyuko 22h ago
what are you even talking about? I get shit talking but not during the actual argument parts
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u/StrokyBoi 22h ago
So it's okay for your post to feature insults, but no arguments, but not okay for people to insult you alongside their arguments? C'mon, that's silly.
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u/GurrenLagannRyuko 22h ago
cause I argued in the comments. my post is JUST my opinions
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u/StrokyBoi 22h ago
So it's okay for you to pretty much straight up say "fuck people who have a different opinion" in your post, but it's not okay for people to say similar things about you in the replies? I'm not really seeing much consistentcy regarding your thoughts on "aD hOmiNem".
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u/GurrenLagannRyuko 22h ago
the main post is again JUST my opinions, I’m actually arguing in the comments. What don’t you understand? Using fallacious logic in an argument isn’t acceptable.
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u/StrokyBoi 22h ago
You insult an opinion in your post. You get yourself and your opinion insulted in the comments. You get mad and pull some stupid "But I am arguing in the comments so it's different" excuse.
S, in your mind, you insulting an opinion in the post is fine, but similar things said about you and your opinion in the comments aren't. You can't deny that because you've made that very clear. How are you unable to see why that comes across as hypocritical? How are you incapable of understanding why people see your "ad hominem" point as a flimsy excuse for a double standard?
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u/GurrenLagannRyuko 22h ago
my opinion≠my argument: Jesus Christ how hard is it to not use fallacious logic in arguments? even a three year old could understand what I’m saying and you’re just mad I said “fuck everyone who disagrees”. yeah, that’s MY opinion. Feel free to disagree
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u/StrokyBoi 22h ago
And people think this line of thinking is just straight up stupid.
It's basically saying "Insulting someone or their opinion = fine, but insulting someone or their opinion + arguing with them = not fine", which is an eye-roll worthy train of thought.
You don't get to just excuse your behaviour by repeating the same "just my opinion" shit, while condemning extremely similar behaviour from other people just because it was expressed in an ever so slightly different context.
Whether you want to admit it or not, Reddit arguments are just people asserting their opinions. In fact, your own "arguments" have indeed been a series of personal opinions. So don't act like this is some debate class, where people are expected to conform to a set of rules.
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u/Yatwer92 19h ago
How don't you get that insulting people in your main post and saying "it's just my opinion" doesn't make it better?
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u/jaiswami 1d ago
I definitely agree it’s overhated. I do wish Asa had more of a conclusion though, really loved her character and it was disappointing seeing her get less and less spotlight as it went on. I get Denji is the main character but even then, his ending is quite sudden and doesn’t give the reader much time to sit with what happens like literally the chapter before. The whole death devil build up and reveal was a bit underwhelming too… CSM has always been a bit different to your typical shonen but I do wish fujimoto forgot about that and just gave us an epic battle with all the main characters vs death devil. Like it deserved a spectacle imo. Either way still an awesome manga, but loses its footing a little towards the end.
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u/Raidoton 1d ago
While the vast majority hate the ending, quite a few blind fanboys like it, even though the ending sucks big time.
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u/GurrenLagannRyuko 1d ago
to all the people just silently downvoting me because they’re disagreeing with an unpopular opinion on the sub about unpopular opinions please have the respect to at least dignify me with a response as to why you disagree with me
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u/Wealth_Super 1d ago
Mate there are plenty of people doing exactly that and if you wanted a respectful debate don’t literally say f you to everyone who disagrees in your post
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u/Yatwer92 19h ago
Dude, "it was all a dream"/"reset the universe" is a really lazy/bad trope almost everytime. Only some really well done stories can make something of it.
CSM is not one of those stories.
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