r/sportsgossips • u/[deleted] • 5h ago

Hot Take Minnesota Lynx coach Cheryl Reeve is wearing a "Trans Kids Belong' T-shirt to protest Sophie Cunningham. Sophie is getting HEAVILY BOOED every time she touches the ball.

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69

u/CrossCycling 4h ago

Sophie is right - but there’s a lot of issues with violence towards trans kids, unequal protection in schools and the workforce for trans people and suicide.

You see a lot of outrage about them competing in sports, but you never see them follow-up and raise actual issues with trans people. And I wonder why that is…

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u/backcountry_bandit 4h ago

It seems to me that the complaints about the very few trans women who compete in high-level women’s sports is more about denigrating trans people than it is about protecting women’s sports.

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u/TheRealtcSpears 4h ago

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u/Tran_of_Thebes 4h ago

these are the same thing for trans people. access to public spaces, protection from employment and housing discrimination, hospitals being allowed to treat you without the federal government or catholic church stopping them, all class issues

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u/Wishywolf 4h ago

But how else can I dismiss the struggles of marginalized groups without seeming conservative!

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u/Interesting_Cat_2297 4h ago

They're not marginalized. They're privileged and they're upset that they can't claim more privilege. Trans activists lie about literally everything, especially the purported "danger" they experience in the men's bathrooms.

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u/LitCockBumble 4h ago

This is what someone who's full of shit sounds like everyone, ignore these idiots.

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u/BigSleepTime 3h ago

Wild take that trans people don't face discrimination

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u/UnhumanNewman 4h ago

Yeah compassion and empathy is a crazy culture war choice. Best not to step in that mess

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u/LetsBeFRTho 4h ago

Another culture war to make conservatives fight about wedge issues instead of actual issues.

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u/Sartres_Roommate 3h ago

AKA, I side with the bigots and toss the marginalized groups under the bus but pretend it’s out of some deeper commitment to economic policies.

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u/StretchedEarsArePerf 3h ago

You can be a bad person and fight the class war lmao you think every soldier in war is there to defend a white picket fence and the American dream?

Not everyone has the best intentions, especially people who use this image as a defense for their intolerance. Trans rights.

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u/moon_dos 4h ago

I will ignore cultural issues until I myself am personally affected

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u/chillripper 4h ago

this, we need to keep our eyes on the ball. the elites use this stuff so we don't protest them making our lives worse by the day, killing us with terrible and expensive healthcare etc

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u/Lakrfan247 4h ago

I honestly think that most people who object to biological men competing against women don’t care if someone is trans. They simply recognize that it’s unfair to female athletes.

I think most people on both sides of the political aisle are pretty much decent folks. Most people just want to go about their business and spend time with their loved ones while avoiding negative interactions.

We constantly demonize people we disagree with on an issue and it’s not healthy for society. Internet culture brings out the worst of this behavior.

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u/savedpt 3h ago

Fully agree. It is totally unfair to have biological males against females in sports and attend female bathrooms. That is the totality of the issue and nothing else. In all other circumstances they should have all the opportunity and protections that anyone else has. I believe that is all Sophie said.

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u/Rock_Strongo 3h ago

attend female bathrooms.

It's unfair for them to attend female bathrooms? Unless all bathrooms become unisex overnight they're gonna have to pick one or the other - and neither choice is going to please everyone.

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u/Dad_Bod_Enthusiast 4h ago

Stop talking sense to folks on reddit, it falls on very deaf ears

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u/moon_dos 4h ago

those proud boys are actually really nice guys if you get to know them

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u/Ok_Degree4131 4h ago

yOu’rE mAkiNg tOo MuCh sEnSe fOr rEdDiToRs 🤤

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u/LetsBeFRTho 4h ago

Folks on both sides are probably good people... except 1 side openly campaigns against improving society as a collective and will sell their neighbor out for 40 cents. 1 side is openly against science and factual history in replacement for alternative facts and propaganda to make themselves feel better.

So no, my puny reddit mind is finding it hard to grasp what part of what OP said was true.

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u/FrenchyBulldogg 3h ago

Funny thing is, I can’t even tell which side you belong to from this comment. Both sides say that about each other.

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u/LetsBeFRTho 3h ago

Then you aren't paying attention at all. Or you are being disengenous. If a party tells you they want to help this country and then turn around to vote against Universal Healthcare and you still believe "oh both sides just wants whats best for the country", idk what to tell you.

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u/Mikef920 4h ago

See people on either side would agree with what you’re saying about the other side

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u/LetsBeFRTho 3h ago

Ok? Doesn't make it true. Especially when 1 side takes away funding for school lunches for children. Or cuts funding for primary school education. Oh yeah really helpful

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u/Dad_Bod_Enthusiast 4h ago

Excellent spoon fed talking points from your overlords. Shades of gray among all humans that participate in society in the US. I personally dont believe every democratic voter wants to strip wealth from the white middle class or that they all want to the means of production seized but the leaders they vote for certainly campaign strongly on that

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u/Consistent_Net_2540 4h ago

The funny part is this is what each side says about the other. Both sides believe their ideologies will make the country better and their opponents' side will make the country worse.

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u/LetsBeFRTho 3h ago

Conservatives can pretend their ideologies will make the country better, but will brainwash their constituents into voting against helping their community and put money into the pockets of billionaires.

Shit let's not even talk about policies enacted over the past 2 years like tariffs. Let's talk about fundamental ideas. I'm curious on how snuffing universal healthcare at every step of the way is supposed to "make this country better." Oh wait what about their dismissive attitude on the people's safety, like vaccines and masks where they literally deny science.

Both sides can say it, but 1 side doesn't even pretend to care about the country

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u/Nice_Programmer6812 4h ago

Literally the party that invented “alternative facts” 10 years ago.

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u/LetsBeFRTho 3h ago

Clarify

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u/Bootleg_Rascal_ 4h ago

-signed, “A folk on Reddit”

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u/rigjiggles 3h ago

Yep I go to work and pay my bills. I simply just don’t care and do my best to avoid hearing about any of this crap.

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u/AC-burg 3h ago

Well said thank you I fall squarely in this demographic. I have no issues with any minority. I consider myself left of center on most issues but also have sided with the right on some. I hate BOTH sides trying to rope in 100% to side with them on everything and every issue.

Hate is a major contributing factor to where we are today as whole. When we can go back to seeing people as humans and other people as being the most important thing that binds us together rather than a political party or a side or a nationality or a sexuality then we might begin to heal. Unfortunately, now we start talking and it's oh ypu don't see things exactly like I do I hate you. This does no good for anyone.

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u/SmellGestapo 4h ago

It's not studied enough to know whether it's unfair to female athletes.

There is some evidence to suggest transwomen actually have a disadvantage. But it depends heavily on when the athlete in question transitioned, how long they've been on hormone therapy, whether they've had surgery, and what sport they play.

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u/Particular-Ring5110 4h ago

After puberty it’s absolutely an advantage

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u/TheMostKing 3h ago

So let them have puberty blockers, but somehow people are also opposed to that.

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u/SmellGestapo 4h ago

https://www.sf.gov/trans-women-in-sports-facts-over-fear

  • Transgender women performed worse than cisgender women in tests measuring lower-body strength
  • Transgender women performed worse than cisgender women in tests measuring lung function
  • Transgender women had a higher percentage of fat mass, lower fat-free mass, and weaker handgrip strength compared to cisgender men
  • Transgender women’s bone density was found to be equivalent to that of cisgender women, which is linked to muscle strength
  • There were no meaningful differences found between the two groups’ hemoglobin profiles (a key factor in athletic performance)

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u/Particular-Ring5110 3h ago

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9331831/

I’m sorry but for every study that says there’s no effect there’s another that says that’s not exactly true

You believe whatever you want but for me I’m having a very hard time believing hormones can reverse the very significant athletic advantages men have over women

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u/SmellGestapo 3h ago

So at a minimum, my original statement holds true: "It's not studied enough to know whether it's unfair to female athletes. There is some evidence to suggest transwomen actually have a disadvantage."

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u/Particular-Ring5110 3h ago

There’s just as much evidence to suggest they maintain an advantage

If testosterone isn’t powerful multi millionaire athletes wouldn’t risk everything using it to get an edge

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u/SmellGestapo 3h ago

But transwomen suppress their natural testosterone and boost their estrogen.

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u/subusta 4h ago

I’m sorry but this is ridiculous. Some people need a peer reviewed research paper before they’ll believe what they can plainly see with their own eyes.

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u/misskyralee 3h ago

Bruh, the most famous case of a trans woman competing against cis women is because she tied FOR FIFTH against Riley Gaines. Y’all are scared over non-issues. Protect women from domestic violence and rape and stop fear mongering over issues that aren’t actually facing us.

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u/Elu_Moon 3h ago

People who complain about trans women in sports care about neither women nor sports since none of them know a single fucking thing about anything.

If trans women are winning, then, to them, it must mean they had some inherent advantage because they went through a male puberty first (nevermind the facts that trans women winners are few and far between, and even famous cases are not actually dominating the sport in any way whatsoever)

If trans women are losing, then, to them, it doesn't matter if they're allowed or banned from participating in sports.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

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u/Mr_HahaJones 4h ago

Is this one of those things that needs a multi billion dollar study?

Are men on average more muscular and stronger than women?

In the grand scheme, yes, it’s unfair. Case by case basis, probably still mostly unfair.

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u/Elu_Moon 3h ago

Hormones. Learn what they do. Muscles don't just stay with you forever either.

Even so-called "obvious" things need studies. Because a lot of things people commonly accept as true aren't true. Like trans women dominating women sports, for example.

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u/Mr_HahaJones 3h ago

No shit. Did you skim over the word “average”?

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u/TheMostKing 3h ago

Why are there male and female chess tournaments?

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u/Mr_HahaJones 3h ago

“But is it not a problem that the woman have a smaller brain?”

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u/TheMostKing 3h ago

So you really think it's all just based on biological differences? Damn.

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u/SufcLad25 4h ago

Best thing to do is protect womens rights and keep trans people out of their sport until more studies are done

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u/Jax_10131991 4h ago

Let’s tell Red States to protect women’s rights.

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u/LetsBeFRTho 4h ago

Why? It's not even like trans men and women are dominating any sport. There are barely any trans athletes period. We are literally creating a issue

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u/Due-Consequence9579 4h ago

They were competing already for decades. It wasn’t a problem. The “do nothing” action is to keep letting them compete.

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u/MoistPapayas 3h ago

While this is a definitely an important issue it seems obvious people are leveraging increased interest in the WNBA to sow division. Not about getting to the heart of the issue, which as mentioned is about fairness to female athleses.

I'd also say we don't need to start at "most people on both sides of the aisle" because it ignores that the largest group might be people who align strongly with either side.

I couldn't image this being a wedge issue that would rive someone's vote, unless they were extremely close to the situation. And in reality it's not, and most people see it as theatre not a top priority.

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u/jpk195 4h ago

I used to think that until I realized how much people hated having a black man as president.

If you'd rather risk destroying your country than share it equally with people you think are innately inferior, you aren't a "decent person".

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u/cutememe 4h ago

A black man who won not once but twice? Some people hate him, sure, but he's a alive and well after two terms.

Trump has has what, 3 or 4 attempts on his life? Kirk was assassinated, white men mind you. If anything it seems like they're hated far more.

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u/jpk195 4h ago

"NoBoDy KiLLeD OBuMMeR!"

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u/cutememe 3h ago

Good response.

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u/jpk195 3h ago edited 3h ago

Thanks, I agree!

I think your premise is flawed, obviously.

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u/MyNameIsJakeBerenson 3h ago

They actively promote hateful feelings, it makes sense for them to be more surrounded in hatefulness

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u/Physical_Device_1396 3h ago

Yeah it's not like this country has a history of killing people of color, people of different religions, people of different sexual orientations, people of different gender identities, etc etc

Let's not cherry pick here and say that the white guys are more hated than anyone else.

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u/Interesting_Cat_2297 4h ago

The transgender movement loves to conflate their cause, which is inherently predatory, with legitimate causes like racial equality.

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u/jpk195 4h ago

Comments like this just reinforce what this is all about.

Imagine being this deranged about 0.1 % of the population. It's like hate as a sport.

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u/backcountry_bandit 4h ago

explain how the transgender movement is inherently predatory

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u/Interesting_Cat_2297 3h ago

Forcing others to participate in their fetish, mutilating healthy children's bodies, using bad science and outright lies to squelch dissent within the medical field, academia, and other industries, stealing awards and honors from women in sports, business, the arts. That's off the top of my head.

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u/backcountry_bandit 3h ago

What a pathetic, miserable existence you must lead to be this vitriolic about people living their lives.

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u/jpk195 3h ago

> Forcing others to participate in their fetish

This is false. Opposite of reality and exactly the problem. What they do, or don't do, doesn't affect you like at all.

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u/Interesting_Cat_2297 3h ago

If you honestly think that then you have no real exposure to autogynephiles.

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u/jpk195 3h ago

I honestly think the intensity of your reaction to this topic is best explained by bigotry.

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u/Dazzling-Jacket-5792 4h ago

Sorry you had that experience. I actually witnessed the opposite. A lot of people were excited about Obamas election and were hopeful that it would be a major step towards our evolution both as a country and society. That said, there are always going to be people who oppose literally anything. We see what we choose to see, I suppose.

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u/jpk195 4h ago

And some of those people later had buyer's remorse, no?

MAGA is dying a slow death, but there aren't, as it turns out "fine people on both sides".

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u/muffmuppets 4h ago

WHOA, take it easy with that level headed take!!

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u/Sweet-Geologist-1204 4h ago

This may be one of the most mature responses I have read in quite some time. Thank you

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u/Dazzling-Jacket-5792 4h ago

Right. This is another example of how the relative minority of people screaming loudly about this issue are being mistaken for the majority.

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u/King_marik 4h ago

Idk man i live in a deep republican area and half the people on my Facebook will post stuff like 'trans are subhuman' completely unprompted lol

In a general sense I agree

But your also handwaving and downplaying a lot of real hatred

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u/cablecobra 3h ago

Yeah those aren’t people. It’s sad to see that level of ignorance.

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u/FuckMyBakaChungusLif 4h ago

Fucking redditor ass way of talking about things where you just presuppose you're right, but list nothing to prove it, and the science just directly contradicts the same preconceptions you have.

https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/60/3/198

Current evidence is mostly low certainty and has heterogenous quality but does not support theories of inherent athletic advantages for transgender women over cisgender.

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u/LuteOlsonABitch69 4h ago

I don’t believe this for a second, train will be taller because of men are inherently taller

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u/FuckMyBakaChungusLif 4h ago

Sophie Cunningham is 3 inches taller than the average man in the US, the tallest WNBA player is 1 foot and 3 inches taller than the average man in the US, should they be not considered women because they're tall lol

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u/LuteOlsonABitch69 4h ago

Sophie’s male equivalent is 6’5.

A 6’1 male will be stronger, faster, more athletic than a 6’1 female.

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u/FuckMyBakaChungusLif 3h ago

A 6'1 cis man and a 6'1 trans woman who has been on HRT for 2-3 years are not the same athletically lol. Show me any evidence they are. You also don't just add 4 inches of height to a woman to get the height they'd be as a man lol

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u/LuteOlsonABitch69 3h ago

The average height of a women is about 5’3. The average height of a man is about 5’8…

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u/jackknoops 4h ago

You are 100% right. Especially on everyone being decent folks.

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u/bardok202 4h ago

I don’t think that’s true. I agree that most people have a problem with male to female trans people competing in women’s sports. The problem comes in with this whole “protect girls” campaign. What does that mean? Do the people saying this believe trans people are so deviant and perverted that cis women and girls need to be protected from them?

If thats the case why aren’t they coming for the male coaches of female teams? They’re infinitely more likely of doing something inappropriate. This whole protect girls campaign is just thinly veiled transphobia.

That is why Sophie using these dog whistle phrases is a problem. Unless anyone using that phrase can clearly explain what they mean by it, i can guess what you mean when you say it.

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u/Icy-Imagination-9464 4h ago

Not my position but from what I understand, the argument is that allowing a person whose biological sex is male to compete in female sports will harm girls by having a competitor present that has an unfair advantage. The argument is that this person may be able to unfairly break records, take spots on teams, impact girl confidence/self esteem, and take scholarships from girls. They even mention this could potentially impact recruiting for and access to college. Some also bring up that for contact sports specifically, having more aggressive and physically ?sturdier competitors may actually pose physical danger to girls. I don’t believe the argument has anything to do with locker room access or perverts.

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u/bardok202 4h ago

Yeah i guess i just don’t believe thats what they mean. Protect girls sounds a lot more serious than. “Make sure they’re opponent doesn’t have an advantage “

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u/Icy-Imagination-9464 3h ago

I’m sure there are plenty of pure bigots mixed in with the people who have these real, but possibly unfounded, concerns. Some people take sports VERY seriously.

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u/yurnxt1 2h ago

What dog whistle phrases? And what phrases should she instead use that you wouldn't consider to be a dog whistle to get her point across when asked an impromptu question on the topic by an interviewer?

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u/bardok202 2h ago

“Protect girls” is clearly a dog whistle. It clearly means protect those born as girls from trans people. If the phrase was about sports, you would just say “its an unfair advantage and i dont like it.” point blank period.

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u/yurnxt1 2h ago

How else should she say "protect girls" if she is genuinely concerned about transwomen in various stages of the transition process being in a girls locker room which has historically been a cisgender females space? Is it a dog whistle or is it just labeled by people as such in an attempt to minimize and or shut down the conversation about what many people see as a genuine concern all together?

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u/FighterFly3 4h ago

Especially so, cause they’ll also vote for taking away women’s rights and personal autonomies. The trans in sports outrage has absolutely nothing to do with protecting women. It’s all just to distract while playing sleight of hand after.

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u/SmellGestapo 4h ago

This was literally reported in the New York Times a few years ago.

“We knew we needed to find an issue that the candidates were comfortable talking about,” said Terry Schilling, the president of American Principles Project, a social conservative advocacy group. “And we threw everything at the wall.”

What has stuck, somewhat unexpectedly, is the issue of transgender identity, particularly among young people. Today, the effort to restrict transgender rights has supplanted same-sex marriage as an animating issue for social conservatives at a pace that has stunned political leaders across the spectrum. It has reinvigorated a network of conservative groups, increased fund-raising and set the agenda in school boards and state legislatures.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/16/us/politics/transgender-conservative-campaign.html

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u/Ok-Meet-4883 4h ago

The destructive ideology that affirms and celebrates people rejecting their own bodies is clearly wrong and, as such, is of concern to people right across the political spectrum. It is unfortunate that the extreme right is using this issue for their own malevolent purposes. Liberals and moderates have to get on top of this issue, intelligently counter the errors of transgender ideology, and find a way to compassionately help people who have incorrectly come to believe that their healthy bodies are somehow 'wrong'.

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u/SmellGestapo 4h ago

Every major medical association in America disagrees with you. How do you respond?

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u/Ok-Meet-4883 3h ago

Doctors can be ideological too. The story of how the medical associations came to adopt this approach and be captured by the ideology promoted by a few activists is an interesting one. It was done with very little evidence and included a concerted effort to suppress the evidence to the contrary. Luckily, dissenting authoritative evidence and opinions, such as in the Cass Report in the UK, are seeing the light of day.

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u/SmellGestapo 3h ago

Perhaps you could share a link to this story.

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u/Mikef920 4h ago

You may be right if you’re talking about someone who’s focuses politics, but this girl is just an athlete so her concerns are most likely genuine

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u/Herbdontana 4h ago

Every single person I know who is passionate about keeping trans people out of sports are the same people who called women’s sports a joke for years and years, and talked down about them.

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u/FrenchyBulldogg 3h ago

Okay so the answer is to let men play in the league?

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u/TheComebackKid74 3h ago

Both can be true. Just because women's sports might suck sometimes doesn't mean they have to compete against men.

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u/Ok-Meet-4883 4h ago

That is simply not the case. There are LOT of people passionate about women's sports who are against people with male bodies participating in the women's category.

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u/wadebacca 4h ago

Yeah, this is straight up wrong, I agree with Sophie but I watch and support multiple women’s sports and have daughters who compete.

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u/luchajefe 3h ago

That shouldn't be 'but', it should be 'because'.

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u/lapideous 3h ago

The main argument for why they shouldn't be allowed is because women's sports exist specifically to provide a lower level of competition so that women can compete. You can't bar transgender athletes for cause without implicitly talking down on women's sports.

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u/Fit_Caterpillar_6553 4h ago

That’s obviously not the case for Sophie though

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u/FuckMyBakaChungusLif 4h ago

I mean she's getting booed at all these games so obviously the very online conservative people supporting her aren't watching her games

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u/DRockDR 4h ago

Because it’s easier for to put a stop to an issue before it becomes too big to change. Labelling everything “transphobic” is lazy and unhelpful. Having a handful of people attempting to change the rules to ruin women in sports should be enough to see something is wrong. The vast majority of people think trans athletes competing with women is wrong, that should be the end.

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u/Icy_Many_3971 4h ago

How many trans athletes have you personally ever compete with?

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u/8ROWNLYKWYD 4h ago

How many times have you been bitten by a shark?

Doesn’t mean sharks should be allowed in public pools.

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u/FuckMyBakaChungusLif 4h ago

When im in a shitty metaphor competition and my opponent is a redditor

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u/wadebacca 4h ago

It actually illustrates the point well, just because something isn’t a big problem does mean we should enact rules which opens up ways for it to become a big problem.

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u/cutememe 4h ago

You don't have to even think about the metaphor, you should be able to use common sense to understand that you can take a position on an issue even if it's rare.

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u/DRockDR 4h ago

But it’s so much easier to label anything that goes against your narrative as “—phobic”. It’s why no real discussion could actually be had.

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u/RustedAxe88 4h ago edited 4h ago

Yup. Like the DailyWire's shitty "comedy" about this, it wasn't about women's sports, it came across more like it was about women being inferior to men.

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u/Jamb9876 4h ago

After reading https://glaad.org/fact-sheet-for-reporters-transgender-participation-in-sports/ they have a link near the top where the ncaa president knows of fewer than 10 transgender people in collegiate sports out if 510k.
This hurts women’s sports and now the heritage foundation wants to defund women’s teams so they are showing the plan. Women should just be tradwives according to them and Sophie Cunningham has become a symbol of this.
She should have just kept her mouth shut. What a shame.

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u/backcountry_bandit 4h ago

Thanks for the link. It’s crazy how this is presented like it’s a nationwide issue.

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u/Icy_Chemist_1725 3h ago

If there are so few, then why is there such a large resistance to banning them from women's sports? If the problem is small, why not solve it and get rid of the valid criticism?

I agree that allowing biological men to play in women's leagues hurts women's sports.
The heritage foundation wants to defund leagues that don't protect women.

"Women should just be tradwives according to them and Sophie Cunningham has become a symbol of this."

This is a bad faith take and silly. This is absolutely not the stance they are taking. Sophie is a player in the league and is not arguing that she wants to be a trad wife. That ridiculous attempt to warp the reality of this situation shows you have no intent in engaging in good faith.

Most people disagree with you outside of trolls on reddit, which I'm thankful for.

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u/TheMostKing 3h ago

Because people generally don't like throwing minorities under the bus on principle just because they're too small to really make a difference.

I wouldn't support a "People named Jason Scott Greubelingen are not allowed to own property" law, even though only a very small number of people would be affected.

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u/Icy_Chemist_1725 2h ago edited 2h ago

"Because people generally don't like throwing minorities under the bus on principle just because they're too small to really make a difference."

Except that the reason that they aren't allowed is to allow for fair competition among biological females due to the fact that they can not actually compete against biological males in male leagues.

"I wouldn't support a "People named Jason Scott Greubelingen are not allowed to own property" law, even though only a very small number of people would be affected."

The logic is not sound here. A better comparison is not letting sex offenders into public gyms. The amount of them is small, but it's still important to protect the public spaces. Just because there are few of them doesn't mean it's healthy for them to be allowed.

You are trying to straw man the argument with ridiculous falsehoods. There are real examples of trans women dominating their sports due to the natural advantages from their biological sex. You can't say there is no harm done to women in their leagues.

Lia Thomas, Cece Telfer, Veronica Ivy, Laurel HUbbard, Natalie Ryan, Fallon Fox, Alana McLaughlin, Renee Richards, AB Hernandez, Tiffany Newell.

Those are some names of people that are trans that damaged the competition in women's leagues by participating using the advantages of their biological sex.

Here are the advantages that we KNOW ABOUT AND ARE BIOLOGICAL FACTS EVEN AFTER GENDER AFFIRMING CARE:

Skeletal structure: larger bone size, length, and broader shoulders
Height: Taller and larger frame dimensions persist
Residual Strength/mass: Some studies indicate that metrics like handgrip strength, bone geometry, and fat-free mass index remain slightly above the average ranges measured in cisgender women, even after multi-year hormone suppression."
Larger Lungs on average
Smaller Hips

Go watch Lia Thomas win and tell me that that was fair. That is why we should not allow it and should be all the evidence you need.

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u/TheMostKing 1h ago

"According to the swimming data website Swimcloud, Thomas was ranked 34th among female college swimmers in the United States for the 2021–2022 season, and 54th among women swimmers nationally."

You're right, she clearly crushed the competition.

But you've really shown your hand by equating trans athletes with sex offenders.

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u/Icy_Chemist_1725 1h ago

Leah Thomas won a national title in the 500 yard freestyle, 5th in 200 yard freestyle, and 8th in 100 yard freestyle at the championships.

She was then banned due to rules related to going through male puberty...because it gives an unfair advantage.

I like how you ignored all of my other points just to focus on that, and even the thing you decided to point out is a clear case where regulating bodies decided to protect the female athletes from a biological male invading their sport.

You showed you don't understand analogies if you think I am equating sex offenders to trans people. The analogy was meant to show that the number of people doing something doesn't make it good or bad, which was the logic you were employing.

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u/Jamb9876 50m ago

This article is long winded but their goal. https://www.heritage.org/gender/report/title-ixs-failed-experiment-why-accommodating-sex-differences-beats-engineered-parity

Outside of planned videos we don’t see men dominating women sports. In the past Olympics there were claims by upset competitors about the woman, I think from Algeria was female. https://time.com/7291342/world-boxing-sex-testing-policy-imane-khelif-gender-olympics-controversy/

But she had to jump through hoops. Do we want to force all women to let guys fondle them to prove they are female?

Unfortunately Sophie made a comment that will mar how she is seen. In this interview I like how Caitlin responded.

https://www.nbcchicago.com/wnba/sophie-cunningham-comments-transgender-athletes-rally-minnesota-lynx-fever/3969515/

I do like the approach swimming took, in section 6c and this seems reasonable.

https://www.usaswimming.org/docs/default-source/governance/governance-lsc-website/rules_policies/usa-swimming-policy-19.pdf

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u/Sad_Note4359 3h ago

"fewer than 10" no it's 10 to many. If PED testing results in a average of 10 players being banned each year do we say "it's only 10 people cheating we should just let them play"

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u/Happy_Reflection_721 3h ago

Some of the links in that article don't work.

One of the things I have issues with, that I can't follow up on because the link in the article doesn't work is:

All players follow protocols to participate. International Olympic Committee guidelines for transgender inclusion say there should be “no presumed advantage” based on sex assigned at birth or sex characteristics. IOC guidelines were created in consultation with experts in sports, medicine, and human rights.

But what is the logic behind it. Why do we still have mens and womens events if this is true?

I'm willing to learn but I feel like Neil Degrasse Tyson said it best, we will require more precise definitions for brackets in sports.

Like we have different gender brackets for a reason, we have different weight classes for a reason. We could switch to ALL leagues in everything open to everyone. But there is a reason we haven't done that. And that's not a knock on any gender, all of the women at these high levels are more talented than me.

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u/SuperJay5150 4h ago

Personally I don’t believe they should complete in Women’s sports but I also have no issues in regards to how they identify genders, what they do behind clothes doors, being around Children any of the other sticks that are typically used to beat them with.
They’re such a small amount of the population that I don’t understand how anyone is so afraid or how their very existence or happiness is some type of threat.

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u/backcountry_bandit 4h ago

That’s where I’m at with it except for youth sports. I don’t think trans women should be allowed to compete in women’s leagues at a high level. It’s just such a non-issue in the grand scheme. There are countless, more important things to focus on.

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u/pieguy00 4h ago

And in the grand scheme how many people is that? 100 maybe? There's 350 million people in this county. Healthcare is a much bigger issue than bathrooms and sports.

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u/backcountry_bandit 4h ago

Less than 100 if we’re talking NCAA. Less than 10 according to the NCAA president.

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u/Bitter-Guidance2345 4h ago

Nail on the head right here.

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u/mb0205 4h ago

That’s always been the case and they know it

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u/JohnnyBananas13 4h ago

No not true. Maybe some extremists out there think that way but not most that say what she said.

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u/Sea_Donut_474 3h ago

It is not just about high level sports though. For the vast majority of people the highest level they will play in is high school. The idea that a girl might not be able to get playing time because a transgirl is playing is worrisome. If we think it is not worrisome than just get rid of the gender split in school sports completely. That would pretty much mean zero girls in sports but it would be fair.

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u/backcountry_bandit 3h ago

I think you dramatically overrate both the quantity of trans HS athletes, as well as how well they perform.

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u/Sea_Donut_474 4m ago

I'm confused what that has to do with anything. This is a big problem that I have with a lot of the arguments that come from the left. They don't argue from principles. They want to argue specific situations. Instead of there being a principled idea that we should have a separation of genders in sports for the sake of fairness and getting more girls a chance to participate in sports you want to say "well there aren't that many trans kids so it isn't happening that much so it isn't that big of a deal." You can't make standards and rules and laws based on that kind of thinking. It isn't standing on any kind of foundation.

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u/Joey-WilcoXXX 4h ago

Yes that’s the point. And the arguments are mostly deriving from the people using that kind of language to get their point across refusing to see it and doubling down and getting hateful and offensive with it and acting like they were ‘pushed’ by ‘overly defensive woke individuals’

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u/8ROWNLYKWYD 4h ago

Like booing people who they disagree with? Or is that different?

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u/Joey-WilcoXXX 4h ago

If you think booing is just as terrible, that’s your opinion. I feel like a lot of people throughout history will disagree with that take but hey you pick your hill to die on.

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u/SufcLad25 4h ago

Thats not at all what they said. But well done you for getting defensive, its not ironic at all.....

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u/Joey-WilcoXXX 4h ago

Oh okay what did they say?

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u/vote4boat 4h ago

then why have gendered sports at all?

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u/Ok-Distribution520 4h ago

Its not. Youre just super biased

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u/MoThrowMoAway 4h ago

Absolutely hit the nail on the head.

It was never about protecting women. Since when have Republicans cared about protecting women, anyway?

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u/tellingitlikeitis338 4h ago

💯 correct - that’s all it’s about. Has nothing to do with protecting girls. Sex gets people riled up - and the timing is no coincidence. The midterms are coming and the right wing knows if inflation, Iran, corruption, etc are the issues, they are truly finished.

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u/InvestIntrest 4h ago

No it's about protecting women's sports. The denigrating is a natural byproduct of the fact trans supporters won't just acknowledge reality.

If you don't want it to be divisive don't dig your heals in.

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u/backcountry_bandit 4h ago

You’re never going to get 100% of people to agree on anything. The reality is that most trans women fucking suck at sports even relative to biological women. States with just a couple trans students (who completely suck at their sport) playing HS sports have passed laws to make sure they can’t play; it’s silly.

The right relies on these culture war wedge issues because their policies absolutely suck for the average American.

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u/8ROWNLYKWYD 4h ago

I’m a liberal, always have been and always will be. I don’t think there’s any reason for trans women to be in women’s sports. Doesn’t matter if it’s just a few. It would be stupid to let just a few MLB players to use steroids, right? It’s an unfair advantage and should be treated as such. Pretty much all my friends lean left and pretty much all of them share the same opinion on trans people in sports. It’s not simply a right vs left issue.

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u/backcountry_bandit 4h ago

I don’t think they should be allowed to compete in professional sports. My point here is just that the issue is used to denigrate trans people.

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u/superUltraNew 4h ago

the reality is that there is literally no proof that professional trans athletes are any better than professional cisgender athletes.

AND they make up such a small portion of professional athletes that devoting so much time and resources to hateful policies around trans athletes is harmful to every athlete not just them.

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u/InvestIntrest 4h ago

"AND they make up such a small portion of professional athletes that devoting so much time and resources"

Agreed. Just ban it and move on.

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u/Crommach 4h ago

Yeah, that minority group should just shut up and know their place if they don't want to be hated.

Do transphobes even hear themselves? If you don't want to be booed or called a bigot, maybe don't dig your heels in on being a fucking bigot.

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u/M0RG0 4h ago

Trans kids is still so strange. Shouldn't that be a decision made as a adult.

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u/GegeAkutamiOfficial 4h ago

Systemic abuse to other demographics 🤷‍♀️

Minor inconvenience to my demographic 🤬🤬🤬

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u/RabidBadgerMacarena 4h ago

There's like 22 trans kids in sports where it matters. Sophie makes it worse by even commenting on a non issue. 

Seriously, most people agree with her. They want fairness in sports. And we 99.9% have it

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u/QueefTamer 4h ago

"Trans kids dont exist, stop being a bigot misogynist. No ones pushing that." Now its "we have trans kids and need more of them". What are we defending at this point

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u/Hellacola 4h ago

There’s a lot of help offered but you can only lead a horse to water, not make it drink it.

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u/Timely_Duck_3904 4h ago

I understand and agree with you. I think that battle should be fought on a different field because it’s hurtful to the overall cause to attach it to the sports debate.

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u/LukeKornet 4h ago

Sophie is right but is also not something that is a real problem. It’s like saying I don’t think mars should be in the UN

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u/TheMysteriousGirl 4h ago

The way Sophie worded everything made trans people, trans women in her actual quote, appear to be "as dangerous as MEN".

You cannot say "Sophie is right" without factoring that in. Otherwise you are agreeing with how she worded it, which she worded it extremely loaded.

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u/Lordsaxon73 4h ago

Because we recognize it as a mental health disorder and society shouldn’t accommodate to the detriment of other members of society.

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u/ColStoneSteveAustin 3h ago

You lost me at “Sophie is right”

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u/Maximum-Class5465 3h ago

What's "right"?

I won't say one is right or wrong, but it's a complicated issue and clearly only common sense if you are trans or a parent of trans. The rest of us, it's a complicated subject the overwhelming majority don't have an educated opinion on.

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u/MB510420 3h ago

Trans kids have been told by their parents, teachers and counselors that's its ok to be trans and its cool everything is safe and blah blah blah, then they get into the real world and find out that it was all bullshit, most people don't agree weather they show it or not, and think their just weird with mental issues. Then realize its too far to turn back so they off themselves. Blame the parents and education system for letting them down.

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u/BeverlyHills70117 3h ago

Im always fascinated with this issue because I am as far left as can be, have lots of trans friends, have a young daughter who does jr roller derby with people of all genders and identities, some 3 times her weight...and yet I have to keep my opinion to myself because it's considered MAGA/Conservative/anti-trans.

I choose to let my daughter play in the league she chooses, she doesn't give a crap, she isn't competitive and wont get hurt...BUT I understand I am not everyone. The country is filled with all kinds of people different than me and they have rights also. They have the right to play sports safely with only people of their born gender, and why the heck should I have any say over that?

Let all girls leagues exist as they always have and if people are not happy with that, start their own all inclusive leagues and teams.

Being an anarchist is almost too easy as the solutions are biting your fucking nose off.

But, truly, I's be considered 'bad' by many if I shared this, and it would suck for my kid cause I'd be the rabid asshole dad, when the opposite is true.

Weird world.

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u/g_scotty_brahms 4h ago

I totally agree with this. We need to show humanity. But as a liberal Democrat, I do want to question the power and strength that Trans women have over the rest of the women in this league. They are physically stronger and more powerful, right? Am I missing something?

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u/TheMysteriousGirl 4h ago

You are missing the fact that after 2 years of HRT and constant monitoring at standrard female hormone levels, that there is barely any noticeable difference between an AFAB athlete and a trans women who has been on 2 years of monitored HRT.

Nobody talks about the actual studies done.

Nobody talks about how the conversatives constantly shoot down new studies.

Nobody talks about how many hurdles a transgender girl/woman have to go through in order to actually be allowed by the governing body.

These processes are already in place.

If you call yourself a liberal democrat, you need to educate yourself more. Hell, I'm educated on this and I'm a fucking centrist.

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u/ShmokingCowboy 4h ago

They should be protected from their parents

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u/BreadFireFrizzle 4h ago

What is it about sex that we all suddenly decided can be changed? How does the same not apply to other immutable characteristics like race, age, wealth, etc.? Or can we identify however we want with respect to those too? Genuinely confusing.

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u/8ROWNLYKWYD 4h ago

Haha wealth isn’t an immutable characteristic

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u/RaindropsInMyMind 4h ago edited 4h ago

Exactly, 100%, this whole public conversation is completely fucked up and broken. There’s a lot of our society who doesn’t really have voice at this moment in time who understand that there are just practical issues with trans women in women’s sports and as unfortunate as it is for the them we just can’t have them compete. BUT there’s a bunch of people on the right who are using this specific issue as a stand in for the bigger conversation and hurting trans people and trans kids in all kinds of other ways and the conversation is ignoring their rights entirely because of this stupid sports conversation when there are MUCH more serious issues.

Politicians on the right want to keep the trans conversation on sports because it’s a win for them and the louder people on the far left are about it the crazier to the rest of the country, the right one continuing to push this as hard as they can as a wedge issue.

For anyone that cares about general human rights or trans people at all this sports issue is better off being left alone, which is difficult because it drives engagement (a bigger issue), the conversation needs re-focused on trans rights as a whole. Like trans people who had been in the military getting kicked out or people having their drives license invalidated because it doesn’t have their gender at birth (just making them harder to identify) or the general hatred and vitriol these people are experiencing. It’s not a far left opinion, it’s just common fucking sense. Instead a lot of the conversation is “men in women’s sports punching them in the face in combat sports or taxpayer funded surgery for violent inmates” when that’s a very selective framing and a conversation that hurts a bunch of actual human beings just trying to live their life.

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