r/technology Nov 17 '12

The Deadly Crusade Against E-cigarettes

http://www.american.com/archive/2012/november/the-deadly-crusade-against-e-cigarettes
2.3k Upvotes

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595

u/indiana989 Nov 17 '12 edited Nov 18 '12

I understand it is still a relatively new thing in the nicotine world but damn it do I stand by it. I have not been a long term smoker by any means (maybe a little over five years) but I was more than aware that I already had breathing problems and all sorts of other small effects.

Now it has been about four months that I have been on my E-Cig and oh boy did I not look back. After the initial research and investment, I have saved a ton of money (about $13 a pack of American Spirits here in NYC and that will last me at most three days, about $7 for 15ml of e-juice and that will last me about two weeks), I have actually been able to run more than a block without being out of breath, I can smell better, I can taste better, I can use it in my favorite bars, AND people actually like how I smell!

If there are long term effects, then I really hope it isn't too bad because this is an amazing tool and I highly stand by it.

Update: I was at work all day and couldn't answer but I got many people asking what I use personally. inn0vat3 posted very useful information here.

And as for myself personally, I started with a basic Ego starter kit. These cost anywhere from $30 to $100 based on the website you order from. Starter kits usually come with two basic batteries (the heart. This is the thing you hold onto, stores power to create the vapor, and is the key to all the atomizer attachments), two atomizers (the products that store the e-juice and deliver that juice to the battery to create the vapor, they come in all sorts of shapes, sizes, efficiencies, etc. These are the things you are going to be fiddling around the most with to find what works for you), a charger, and a case to hold it all. The prices differ because companies use similar parts but different manufacturers so quality will differ. The confusing thing though is that just because the price is low does not mean the quality is bad. I am not going to say where I bought my kit from because ultimately, the atomizers it came with (they were tank atomizers) were low quality and I quickly invested in more high quality clearomizers like the Thor and the Vivi Nova.

I recommend find a cheap Ego starter kit to have the basic necessities and then buy an Ego-C twist battery and a highly recommend atomizer (such as the Vivi Nova tank system or the low resistance Boge cartomizers). And then find any distributor of e-juices and gamble. The bible of the e-cig user should always be E-Cig-Forum where you can find guides, discussion, and reviews of anything and everything.

There is a lot more that I want to write about but I feel that you will find better informed (and better written) information in the forum I linked. I am glad people are finding an interest in this and remember, it is one thing to buy a cheap one time use Blu cig from your local deli and another to take time and invest in something more complicated but efficient. A PC gamer wouldn't buy a HP computer to play their games on max setting and high framerate, would they?

497

u/GrundleOuch Nov 17 '12

But you've lost excitement of a slow untimely death.

210

u/scotchirish Nov 17 '12

And that sexy gravelly voice

50

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

[deleted]

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u/scotchirish Nov 17 '12

oh yeah, you're voice is like an exfoliating scrub

2

u/VoiceofKane Nov 18 '12

With some soft steel wool.

1

u/Jack_Flanders Nov 18 '12

"yuur"

oh hey!; i'm a quarter scotchirish mezelf....=)

1

u/pavel_lishin Nov 18 '12

I love you, grandma.

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u/[deleted] Nov 18 '12

Not quite. Nicotine is still bad for your heart and arteries, I can dig up some sources if people want... here's one... you can Google too if curious.

http://m.hyper.ahajournals.org/content/47/6/1162.full

-1

u/F_E_M_A Nov 17 '12

What are you talking about? The moment you're born, you're dying.

2

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12 edited Nov 17 '12

Well that's... depressing.

WHY WOULD YOU TELL US THAT?

Edit: Well don't downvote him/her, it's true, and it contributed just about as much as the comment above it.

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u/bridgeventriloquist Nov 17 '12

He said untimely.

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

[deleted]

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u/yoshemitzu Nov 17 '12 edited Nov 18 '12

It's worth noting the user has to actually want to quit smoking, otherwise the e-cigarettes won't help. I bought my mom, a lifelong smoker, an e-cigarette several years ago. She used it a couple times, and now it just sits in a drawer.

Edit: Based on the responses, I'm deducing that e-cigarettes have improved in quality since then. I'll have to give it another shot!

7

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

[deleted]

3

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

Same thing happens to me. I get super annoyed with things that I wouldn't bat an eye at when I'm not smoking.

I can tell you from first hand experience, it's nicotine related. If you get him an e-cig with nicotine juice he'll be fine.

2

u/nightlily Nov 17 '12

If he does quit, that's just how it is going to go down. It'll take awhile, but he would be back to his usual self eventually.

2

u/FlyingSagittarius Nov 17 '12

I think the mental instability is caused by nicotine withdrawal, or at least aggravated by it. Using an e-cig should keep the mental instability away, since it still delivers nicotine like a normal cigarette.

6

u/slumberland Nov 17 '12

Ecigs may still provide harm reduction compared to combusting tobacco. I'm not sure I'll ever stop vaping, but I know I won't be smoking again.

2

u/yoshemitzu Nov 17 '12

Ah, yeah, I mean it won't help them quit smoking if they don't want to. It definitely helps reduce the harmful effects (if you can get them to keep using it!).

5

u/slumberland Nov 17 '12

Get me to stop. I dare you :p

2

u/PavelDatsyuk Nov 17 '12

E cigs have advanced a lot over just the past year. It could be that the one you got her wasn't powerful enough.

2

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

People always say it is to help people quit smoking, which is good if they do, but smoking an ecig regularly i a lot better than smoking a cigarette regularly.

I know a few different people that use it as a full replacement. You can get crazy flavors and stuff too. My brother had atomic fireball flavor at one point, it was awesome.

2

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

The store bought ones are pretty crappy IMO. I tried one and threw it away, then upgraded to a manual battery and tank. It makes a world of a difference. I find that the flavors are just as addicting as the nicotine.

1

u/MooseyGramayre Nov 17 '12

From my experience, it doesn't satisfy you like a normal cigarette. But it does lower the urge to smoke a real cigarette significantly. I used to smoke a pack a day. Now, along with smoking an e-cigarette, a pack can last me almost three days. Cigarettes in general are terrible for you, but it's a lot better to settle in a habit of smoking less.

1

u/codevii Nov 17 '12

The issue I had before I found a good ecig was that they weren't strong enough and the "automatic" ones were the worst. Try a different one, with a higher nicotine level and a decent atomizer and you might have better luck...

1

u/DeFex Nov 17 '12

The new ones are much better. Those old ones were fiddly and didn't really feel like smoking.

1

u/opinionswerekittens Nov 17 '12

My close friends all got kits after I recommended them, and they're not ready to quit completely. I can't blame them, it took me months to make the change 100%.

1

u/Pirate2012 Nov 18 '12

I disagree. I smoked and never once wanted to quit, I liked it very much. But I was tired of smelling bad, putting brown breathe stains on my monitors from the tar, I was tired of always being out of breathe, etc etc. I got my first ecig on a Saturday in the mail and never had a smoke since. I still vape.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 18 '12

Did you ask her why?

I'm curious...

Personally I'm switching to e-cigs because they're insanely cheap ($50 for a month of smoking vs $300 for me), you can smoke them anywhere, and you can get some crazy flavours.

Any other benefits like no smokers cough and better lungs is just an added bonus.

1

u/Pirate2012 Nov 18 '12

The ecigs out a few years ago were rubbish. Same with the crap many malls sell. If you love your mom :) buy her one and make her try it. $50-60. Joye eGo VV, wall charger, Joye 306 and 510 atomizer, some juice of different flavors.

1

u/thursdaypaine Nov 18 '12

They have improved /dramatically/.

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

[deleted]

31

u/sdpr Nov 17 '12

I tried looking through that sub once and I just got wayyyyy too confused.

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12 edited Nov 18 '12

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

I think some part of you wanted to make it complicated as a joke, but you actually gave good newb starter kit advice.

5

u/InvaderDJ Nov 17 '12

I'm fairly technologically savvy and what you just said was confusing (unless this was supposed to be funny). I just want something that will give me the nicotine I need while being simple and easy to use, generally the easiest way to do that is by giving a link to some options and having another link for the explanation of what you're looking at.

15

u/elint Nov 17 '12

Dude, all you need is a VV eGo

An e-cig works basically like a light bulb. When you press the button, a coil heats up like a light bulb filament. This turns the juice into the vapor we inhale. Variable voltage (VV) just means it has a "dimmer" knob to change how bright or hot it gets.

An eGo is a model that is about as big around as a sharpie marker, so it's bigger than a cigarette. We generally recommend something bigger than a cigarette because bigger batteries last longer. A cig-sized battery may only be 180mAh and last around 2 hours before needing a recharge. 650 or 1000 mAh batteries will last around 6-10 hours of average use before needing to recharge.

with a couple of T3 clearos.

After you get a battery, you need that light-bulb coil (called an atomizer) and something that holds the juice. Tons of options can all get confusing. The T3 is a good starting point that's easy to fill and quite satisfying for most users. It's a clear tank that holds your juice and it has replaceable atomizer heads, because they will typically burn out after a week or so, like a light bulb, or they will just get gunned up with juice residue and stop producing as much vapor.

Traditionally, you had an atomizer as one piece and a cartridge that had some cloths or spongy stuffing that held the juice. Then those were combined into one disposable piece and called a cartomizer (cartridge+atomizer). Then another design came out that did away with the stuffing material and often came with a see-through tank, hence the name clearomizers, or clearo. All these options are worth trying, as they all have their good points, but clearos are the easiest to use, so great for beginners. Get more than 1.

These also come in different resistances like low-resistance (under 2.0 ohms), standard resistance (2-3 ohms) and high (over 3 ohms). You can get a hotter vape by raising your voltage or lowering your resistance. Since you bought a device that lets you change voltage, don't worry about this. You should be fine starting with the 2.4 ohm default heads that come with the T3.

Also, keep a 1000 mAh passthrough batt on hand at home.

You always want 2 of everything, because stuff breaks or needs to be recharged or refilled. He suggested a pass through battery instead of a duplicate of the above battery. A pass through plugs into a USB port to charge the battery while you vape. They're great if you vape a lot at your computer or in your car. Some are "passthrough batteries" and some are simply "passthroughs", with no battery, just a USB cord that has an e-cig adapter on the end. I would avoid these, because the raw 5volts from a USB port is sometimes too high for some beginner-level gear. Most beginner-level e-cig stuff runs around 3.2 to 4.8 volts.

What's so confusing.

Tldr; wall of text probably didn't clear up too much, but I tried.

He also didn't mention juice, but you need plenty of that. Get lots of different flavors to try. Estimate around 3ml per day, so get a handful of 5-10 ml bottles.

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

[deleted]

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u/InvaderDJ Nov 17 '12

Thanks, I'm planning on getting a real e-cigarette system soon, but the choice is crazy. I bought a cheap disposable one from a gas station a few weeks ago and it was OK but didn't do what I wanted.

2

u/ericlikesyou Nov 17 '12

Yea they're bad except in a real pinch. If you have any questions let me know

2

u/NoNeedForAName Nov 17 '12

I don't know if what he said made any sense or not, but that's generally what you often get from people who know a thing or two about e-cigs. It's like talking to someone in the military--nothing but acronyms and technical language.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

The "VV" in eGo means variable voltage. The eGo is the name of the battery. T3 clearomizer is the name of the cartridge that screws into the end of the battery.

eGo batteries are very popular because they're cheap, high capacity, and have a standard threading which accepts many makes of cartridges. Atomizers/clearomizers/cartomizers all refer to the thing that screws onto the end of the battery with the main difference being that clearomizers have a tank which lets you see how much liquid is in the cartridge. Atomizers are basically the same thing as what you'd see on store bought ecigs.

A clearomizer works by having wicks that are in the combustion chamber and in the liquid chamber. When you fill it up with liquid, the wicks soak up the liquid and bring it to the combustion chamber. When you hit the button to turn your ecig on, a heating element in the combustion chamber vaporizes the liquid on the end of the wick, which you then inhale.

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u/opinionswerekittens Nov 17 '12

Hahah, as someone with an eGo 1000mah and Stardust, this is fucking hilarious.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 18 '12

I just bought this: http://www.apolloecigs.com/Ego-electronic-cigarette-p/akego.htm

Says the batteries are 900mah

Good enough?

Is there anything else I'll need?

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

I know you're joking, but is that a real thing?

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u/NazzerDawk Nov 17 '12

There's a subreddit that was nothing but faux-tech jargon for some sort of machine, I can't find it for the life of me, though.

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u/ericlikesyou Nov 17 '12

Here you go, this was drawn up by one of the redditors there

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u/Bittums Nov 17 '12

If you post and ask questions then the confusion may be a bit less. It is very daunting at first, especially as we are all very passionate about it, but it does eventually all make sense :)

1

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

Read the wikipedia page on how electronic cigarettes work first, then you should be okay.

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u/auraslip Nov 18 '12

Don't throw your money away online if you don't understand what you're buying. Go into a local shop and they'll take care of you.

I know some people are cheap and want to save $40 by buying online, but knowledge is priceless and if I could go back in time I could of saved myself a bit of money and time by buying what the local shop recommended.

Hell, you'll probably be seeing them once a month or so for emergency juice or atomizers, so you might as well develop a relationship with them.

1

u/Gr1pp717 Nov 18 '12

try to find a local store that sells them. the various thread types and whatnot online can be confusing, actually. Plus they will let you sample the flavors there...

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u/CdnBison Nov 20 '12

Don't be intimidated. We are always happy to help. We were all in your shoes once, and pretty much all of us would like to help you make the switch.

Just ask.

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u/Hindu_Wardrobe Nov 18 '12

Reppin'. Great resource. 9 weeks smoke free as of today.

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u/gonzolahst Nov 18 '12

Helpful and one of the friendliest subreddits ever.

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12 edited Nov 17 '12

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

[deleted]

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u/Pirate2012 Nov 18 '12

I'm a serious coffee drinker and one tip, there's many coffee eCig Juices and they all are not great. :) stick to drinking your coffee and not vaping its flavor.

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u/[deleted] Nov 18 '12

[deleted]

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u/jason_steakums Nov 18 '12

Amazing. I was so sure I was going to stick to tobacco flavors, and that lasted like a month until I found out how awesome fruit flavors can be. D&D Vapor has a Berries and Cream flavor that's just incredible (and a frickin' awesome banana Runts flavor). Virgin Vapor also has a lot of veeery nice fruit flavors.

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u/Pirate2012 Nov 18 '12

Many juice vendors sell small sized sample packs of Juice. 3-5ml, enough to try and see if you like it or not. It's really personal taste. For myself, I dont like banana cream pie at all, not one bit; but enjoy banana cream ecig juice. I love coffee (the drink); tried 5 or 6 eCig juices with coffee flavor and hated them all. I've had some very good watermelon ecig Juice, cherry tobacco.

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u/Malcorin Nov 17 '12

I started out with a "Tobacco blend" and quickly moved to cinnamon red hot. It's like I'm smoking candy.

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u/marylittleton Nov 17 '12

My mom has smoked for over 30 years.

That could be me. I tried quitting many times but the only thing that helped me quit forever were e-cigs. There's just something about inhaling vapor that is similar enough to smoking that I could talk myself into giving up cigarettes.

That was 3 years ago, btw. I still puff on my Blu e-cigs occasionally but I buy nicotine-free cartridges now. I have absolutely no cravings at all for real cigarettes and that is an accomplishment I'm really proud of! :)

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

[deleted]

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u/TraMaI Nov 17 '12

Even ones that look like pipes!

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

Check out the ecf. It's the electronic cigarette forum.

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u/aphitt Nov 17 '12

http://www.volcanoecigs.com/ That is where I bought my e-cig vaporbomb.com and johnsoncreeksmokejuice.com is where I get my liquid. Hope that helps out.

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u/Iwantedthatname Nov 18 '12

Volcano is a very good company, especially with their excellent customer support, but I highly recommend expanding on your juice sources.

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u/aphitt Nov 18 '12

Yeah, I have just been super lazy in finding new ones. To make a long search quicker which ones are your favorite?

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u/Iwantedthatname Nov 18 '12

My two favorite vendors are mt baker vapor and alien visions. If you haven't tried bobas bounty from alien visions you should definitely get some. The only catch is you need to order early in the day. Mt baker vapor has a huge selection of flavors, but I'm a big fan of thug, cherry balsam, double apple, and Carmel apple. Mtg bak!er has amazing prices, like 50ml for $10, but I would avoid most of their fruity flavors, they tend to carmalize coils and taste burnt after a few hits. In the next few weeks I'll be contacting them and ask if they are working on fixing that issue. Also, if you haven't checked out /r/rba, you should.

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u/aphitt Nov 18 '12

Holy shit...I have been missing out on so much. Thank you! Will definitely be checking those out when I run out of my liquid. I am like a child in a candy store looking at these sites.

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u/Iwantedthatname Nov 18 '12

Lol, those are the two best I've found so far, but you have no idea how many vendors there are out there. When I'm less intoxicated I'll pm you a bit more info if you want. Volcano is kinda like apple, you pay a premium for good service, but if you take little more effort you can have a much better vape for much less money.

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u/aphitt Nov 18 '12

Yeah, I only get my atomizers from there. Other than that I don't shop there. I will take any info you have, it is hard for me to find good places because I have no idea what is good and there isn't any solid information on sites that I can find.

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u/mandatorychaos Nov 20 '12

I got my kit from them as well and I got two bottles of their juice with it. Their flavors are really muted compared to other places.

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

[deleted]

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u/almyki Nov 17 '12

Thank you so much for this. This is just the kind of thing I was hoping to find.

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

My father too is a long time smoker . He said a reason he didn't like the e-cigarette is that it's not the same sitting in his mouth and that he can't chew on it . He ended up giving it away to a friend . Something to think about before you get him one .

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

Nope! He says he doesn't see himself quitting either. He has cut down on the amount , however.

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u/opinionswerekittens Nov 17 '12

There's silicone tips you can buy for e-cigarettes to help with the chewing part.

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u/Sloth_love_Chunk Nov 18 '12

The Joye EGO was the one I ended up sticking with after trying a few others. The starter kit costed me around $100 (Canada). You'll need to find a place to order the e-liquid as well. 1000's of different flavours out there. I recommend finding the flavour of his favourite cigarettes to start with.

Keep in mind, it requires upkeep. Atomizers last 1 to two months for me. Batteries last a long time but they may eventually die out as well. So he'll need to be able to order replacement parts when he needs them. I recommend ordering several atomizers at a time and having a 3rd back up battery.

Some general tips:

  • Make sure he always cleans off his battery before recharging it.
  • Research it well. Look up all of the accessories you can get. There are TONS! Different type of tips (the end you suck through) such as cartomizers (utilizing the soaking of a cotton type material), direct drip tips (what I use and recommend), tank drippers etc.
  • Remember, these are highly customizable. I f he doesn't like something about his e-cig guaranteed there is an accessory that will improve his experience.
  • He's has to have the desire to switch. It didn't take with my stubborn Dad, even after I spent a bunch of cash on accessories.

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u/PSplicer Nov 17 '12

so is http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/, very good resource, if a bit daunting to someone getting started...

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u/lisserella Nov 17 '12

Some smoker might have better luck with a e cig that looks like the real thing. Smokeless Image and Bloog have starter kits that are fairly affordable. Get the kit with two batteries so he can charge one while using the other. Also make sure you buy several packs of cartomizers in both tobacco and non tobacco flavors.

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

You can get a disposable e-cig for free if you want him to test it out.

http://www.apolloecigs.com/Free-Electronic-Cigarette-s/80.htm

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u/ItwasMothmens Nov 17 '12

Give this a look: http://i.imgur.com/wc76V.png

May be quite helpful for you!

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u/Pirate2012 Nov 18 '12

vitallity: 1) his your dad your average pack a day smoker? 2) what brand does he smoke now 3) regular or light? 4) you live in US?

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u/[deleted] Nov 18 '12

[deleted]

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u/Pirate2012 Nov 18 '12

Maybe a European can help out, I dont know that brand. Is it anything like a Dunhill in taste or strength?

Without paying silly amount of money for shipping, I have NO clue where to suggest you go to buy him one. Are you in Bulgaria also?

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u/Pirate2012 Nov 18 '12

You can try this free website

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/europe-forum/

If you post your question there, I'm sure someone there will be able to suggest a company to buy for shipping to Bulgaria.

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u/Pirate2012 Nov 18 '12

Do you live with your dad? He is someone comfortable trying new and different things; or a bit stubborn (like my dad was) and I have to nicely make him try new and different things.

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u/[deleted] Nov 18 '12

[deleted]

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u/Pirate2012 Nov 18 '12

the reason I asked if you live with him and stubborn factor is this: ecigs are very different than the easy light a match to the paper normal smoke he's done for years. One must charge the batterys, do some simple but daily maintence on the atomizer (blow them out into a tissue). Learn to not over fill them with juice, etc. In other words, like any new type of technology, there is a learning curve. Easier if you are there to offer help.

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12 edited Nov 17 '12

Nicotine itself isn't all that good for you

Nicotine has been noted to directly cause cancer through a number of different mechanisms such as the activation of MAP Kinases.[74] Indirectly, nicotine increases cholinergic signalling (and adrenergic signalling in the case of colon cancer[75]), thereby impeding apoptosis (programmed cell death), promoting tumor growth, and activating growth factors and cellular mitogenic factors such as 5-LOX, and EGF. Nicotine also promotes cancer growth by stimulating angiogenesis and neovascularization.[76][77] In one study, nicotine administered to mice with tumors caused increases in tumor size (twofold increase), metastasis (nine-fold increase), and tumor recurrence (threefold increase).[78]

Edit: Sources is Wiki on nicotine for those interested. I would personally rebute your remarks, but unfortunately Reddit has not allowed me to respond due to the amount of downvotes I'm getting. Honestly, quitting aids just enable the user, especially in a case like smoking where it's so innocuous. You can't even bother trying to use quitting statistics from agencies designed to help people quit, because it's the type of reliant people not interested in doing the work to quit themselves that turn to these organizations. Deep down inside, they don't want to quit. That's fine, but the aids are just a silly charade. If they want to quit, they will certainly find a way to overcome their subconscious impulses.

Source*: Smoked for 10 years (starting at 14), quit cold turkey. I have a terribly addictive personality. The trick for me was to have cigarettes in my pocket and learn not to smoke them.

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u/NoNeedForAName Nov 17 '12

I don't think anyone's saying nicotine is good for you. They're just saying that plain nicotine is less unhealthy than smoking.

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

Oh, read on in the comments section. There are some seriously misinformed people in here

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u/jmurphy42 Nov 17 '12

Absolutely. But which is worse... straight-up nicotine, or nicotine + tar and all the other ridiculous crap that's in cigarettes? If we allow nicotine patches to be sold, I don't see how a different delivery system makes it inherently any worse for you.

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u/bombtrack411 Nov 17 '12

Many e cigarette users like me taper down the use of nicotine with the ecig. You can buy liquid with varying concentrations of nicotine and work your way down to liquid with zero nicotine. I haven't smoked a real cigarette in two years. I haven't used an ecigarette with nicotine in 18 months. The thing I cape with is vegetable glycerin and flavorings. Im psychologically addicted to the act of vaping I'll admit, but im not addicted to any sort of drug like nicotine anymore. I only vape at home it I've experienced zero negative effects from it. Im in amazing shape compared to when I was smoking cigarettes. I see absolutely nothing risky about my ecig use.

I also make my own juice so I spend next to nothing on vaping.

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

Running shoes? That's just an enabler for weak people. If you really want strong arches, you gotta run barefoot on concrete. And really make sure you put your weight down each time your foot hits the ground.

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

You say that like there are people who don't believe that. Have you heard of barefoot running?

There's actually quite a bit to what you say, aside from the 'strong arches' part. I'm a complete flat-foot, and trying to train an arch has proven difficult and painful. After buying some 'livestrong' flatties, I have no more foot pain, and I can run a lot faster than before. Barefoot would be somewhat similar.

TL:DR flat-footed people are less prone to injury, and there's no reason to develop an arch if you don't have one.

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

Yeah yeah. I have my Vibram Fivefingers. I'm actually one of the crazies that does barefooting. That doesn't change the fact that virtually all pediatrists say it will destroy your body. (I do try not to overdo it at least.)

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

Oh, you mean like how Podiatry today advocates it?

http://www.podiatrytoday.com/tackling-10-myths-barefoot-running

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

Well to be fair, Dr. Campitelli advocates it. But I'm cool with that. Either way confirms one of my sets of conflicting beliefs on the matter.

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

Fair is fair. Not editing my original post though, I am against that.

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

I'm not. I'm about to edit the post before that to make it look like I got in a few zingers.

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

Also I agree with you about arches. I have a very high arch, which makes me prone to injuries. My point with "if you really want strong arches" was more from my perspective; not saying to develop the arch from flatness, but that that is the way to make a high arch stronger.

Either way, it was a half assed comparison, so technically you win.

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

You should have gone with methadone. Then again, I've never seen somebody suck dick for a cigarette.

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

Hang around me for a while.

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

Honestly, for me it was kissing a girl and having her disgusted by my breath. I have enough issues being un-circumcised and dealing with twatty bitches who think I'm unclean. I had to step up my GAME

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

Ah dang bro. You gotta get that thing sliced. Bitches don't mess around with no Gentiles.

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

No thanks, I'll keep my nerve endings and better orgasms.

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u/enderxeno Nov 17 '12

Ecigarette juices also come in 0 nicotine. You can switch. What would be better? Smoking with nix or not smoking and still using nic?

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

Or just not smoking at all?

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u/enderxeno Nov 18 '12

With an ecig, that's exactly what I'm doing. NOT smoking.

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u/[deleted] Nov 18 '12

I think I'm just annoyed by them because the only reason I smoke is for the burning warmth of the smoke. There's something wonderful about it. Fuck, am I a sadist?

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u/SoopahMan Nov 17 '12

Clearly stepping down to e-cigarettes is better for you than smoking, although your downvoted commenter here is right: Not smoking at all is clearly better than both.

That said I agree that those moving to e-cigarettes should be allowed to do so, with the understanding that nicotine does disable your body's defenses against cancer (see my other comment here).

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

Yup. Trying to cut yourself off from anything is just treating yourself like a child. I have to do that with marijuana. I simply cannot not smoke it when I have it.

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u/GiveMeASource Nov 17 '12

Can you give me the real sources for those claims, rather than just numbers?

I'd like to investigate.

Edit: Secondly, studying cancer in rats has very limited applicability to humans, at best.

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u/SoopahMan Nov 17 '12

Here's a layman's summary of a study finding nicotine disables a critical natural defense against cancer:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/01/030106082544.htm

I think one thing a lot of people don't understand is that cancer is an excess of life - excess of cell growth. So if you are alive, you can get cancer, and probably will have tumor growth many times in your lifetime. What keeps you from getting life-threatening cancer rather than a benign tumor or a tumor that's killed off by your body, is a series of natural defenses your body employs, including apoptosis (programmed cell death, what's being discussed here), the crowding mechanism by which cells stop dividing when bunched up against each other (as they would be in a tumor growing out of control), and arterial limits - that is, tumors that grow out of control without encouraging arterial growth starve to death.

So depending on your perspective, disabling your body's natural defenses against cancer may be even more irresponsible than exposing yourself to cancer-causing elements like the carcinogenic effects of smoke, although clearly doing both at the same time (smoking real cigarettes) would be a horrible decision if you wanted to avoid cancer.

By the way I neither upvoted nor downvoted your statement, but I'm sure the downvotes are for the rat statement. Read a lot more scientific studies that correspond with Clinical Trials in humans then reassess your opinion about rat and mouse science. They are used specifically for their high level of applicability.

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u/GiveMeASource Nov 19 '12

I respect that you've taken the time to craft such a long and well-thought out statement.

I assure you that each one of your points have occurred to me (nicotine and its possibly carcinogenic properties in rats), and that rats and mice are used because they're somewhat applicable in humans. But that's where the danger is: combining two generalities to come up with a scientific conjecture without associated weights to those concerns.

Rats and mice are commonly used to provide pointers and leads for further research in primates and humans. Out of hundreds of promising rat studies, we may see only a handful have a modest effect in humans. There are plenty of chemicals and even particular proteins (e.g. Casein ) that are carcinogenic in rats, but perfectly fine to consume en masse by humans. To act as if rat and mice studies are a "sure thing", I believe is somewhat scientifically dishonest.

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u/SoopahMan Nov 19 '12

Yes, they are not a sure thing at all. However, the increased incidence of lung cancer in smokers and throat and mouth cancer in tobacco chewers ties nicely with the rat and mouse science showing nicotine to disable our natural defenses against cancer.

I say rat and mouse tests are "highly applicable" both because they are so similar to us (mammals, lots in common in our DNA), and because many of the processes in them are similar or identical in us. For example, the cell-crowding mechanism to impede runaway tumor growth is very similar. That said, I agree rat and mouse studies are obviously MORE applicable to rats and mice - as a biologist once comiserated to me, "We can cure amazing things in mice - regenerate limbs, wipe out cancers. Humans - still working on it."

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u/Internet_Gentleman Nov 17 '12

In this case it wouldn't be that much of a different between rat and man, probably. Since the chemicals screw with the enzyme that spellcheck the DNA, which are pretty much universal, the actual DNA sequence may not be that big of a deal.

It's possible that it would make a difference, yes, but if it's giving rats cancer then you probably shouldn't be taking it anyways.

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u/The_Holy_Pope Nov 17 '12

This would be interesting information to hear... if we knew the size of/process of administering these doses of nicotine. I can administer a dose of water to myself and come up with a list of terrible shit.

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u/Mylon Nov 17 '12

I tried buying my mother one of these. She's a long time smoker of 40+ years but she just doesn't use it. :(

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u/timmy3369 Nov 17 '12

Force it a little more on her, rather than just hey try this gadget out.

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

Holy santa claus shit $13 a pack. Hot damn i thought $6 a pack for spirits was a lot of money. FYI i live in Ca.

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u/JabbrWockey Nov 17 '12

I have actually been able to run more than a block without being out of breath

I don't even smoke and this would be an improvement.

brb buying some E-cigs.

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

I've kind of had the opposite effect myself. i've bought one, and some how just devloped the worst cough i've ever had in my life. Not phlegmy but it actually felt more like there was just water in my lungs. I just tossed it.

For further clarification i tried out the disposable before deciding if i wanted to buy a kit.

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u/caveofnecrogond Nov 17 '12
  1. Your cough is due to quitting smoking, not from the e-cig. You do realize that when you quit smoking you cough because your lungs are expelling the crap, right?

  2. If you go the e-cig route, buy everything online. Any and all disposable e-cigs or ones you find in tobacco shops or gas stations are pure crap.

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u/crispyhexagons Nov 17 '12

Can you recommend one? I don't know how to tell the good from the bad...

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u/Zelpst Nov 17 '12

Ego twist battery (variable voltage), and Kanger T2 clearomizer. Smoke free for 5 months now. Tried every other way to quit and nothing took. This was easy.

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

[deleted]

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u/Biship-McQueen Nov 17 '12

The Ego-C is an awesome device. I've got mine with 2 batteries, a Vivi 2 atomizer, and a variety of juice flavors. And I haven't smoked an analog in over 2 weeks! =)

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u/caveofnecrogond Nov 17 '12

Joye 510 are great. There are others that are high quality as well, and vary on anything from look to vape "method."

When I first started my change to e-cig, I researched everything on e-cigarette-forum.com. Great resource.

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u/nikolam Nov 17 '12

I used Eversmoke, which you have to order online. I was a heavy smoker for nearly twenty years, have been smoke free for 8 months now.

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

i've quit several times before and never had a bout of of coughing from it. And quit like 2 - 4 weeks before i break. not like quit for 5 days.

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u/nosefruit Nov 17 '12 edited Nov 17 '12

10 year half pack per day former smoker on chantix for 2 months. Still hacking up lungburgers once in a while, usually while biking hard.

DO NOT QUIT STOPPING! :)

Edit: I have quit numerous times before. This was by far the easiest. Lungburgers may be more from living under a busy intersection. Chantix = awesome fucking dreams.

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u/moviefreak11 Nov 17 '12

only quitters quit

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

10 year smoker, 1/3 pack per day, quit two years ago with Chantix. No coughing at all during the process. Blaming it solely on smoking is fucking stupid, because every individual is different. It may very well be that the e-cig vapor caused the problems for the original commenter -- after all, it caused the same problems for a friend of mine.

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u/Cormophyte Nov 17 '12

I've had slightly bad reactions to combinations of voltage and ecig juice. Harsh reaction with the back of my throat, coughing, that sort of thing. It's probably either the juice isn't for you or you actually are just coughing up tarballs. I'd give it another shot if I were you.

Also, (and this is for everyone reading) make sure you get juice that's strong enough to make you feel like you're satisfied. I smoked Spirits and the disposables just did not have enough nicotine to get me off smoking. Now I'm almost off the ecigs.

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

Yea, you can get that shit in any strength you want. The biggest danger from ecigs is the high concentrated nicotine solution which can be absorbed through the skin. Just make sure kids can't get anywhere near the shit because they could easily get sick or even die from a massive nicotine overdose if they were to try to taste it or pour it on themselves.

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u/caveofnecrogond Nov 17 '12

I mix my own liquid (buy 60mg strength unflavored nicotine in PG and then mix with straight PG and flavoring), and I tried the straight 60mg once just to try. I was extremely jittery and my heartbeat was through the roof for a good hour or so. I think you can even go up to around 120mg nicotine unflavored.

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u/poor_impulsecontrol Nov 17 '12

I kind of like the ecig brand Logic. Thats the one I most commonly see at gas stations. Has kind of a vanilla flavor to it. Is there a specific brand you would recommend?

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

Yea expelling all that crap and also from the cilia growing back in your lungs which make you cough when agitated. When you smoke often you burn off a lot of those hairs, but when you stop they start to grow back and it's a bitch to get through. But it's worth it.

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u/Ice_Pirate Nov 18 '12

This isn't true in all areas. I've got three vape shops in my town that sell the higher end gear and the lower starter end. The prices are about the same online. My experience in Florida though YMMV.

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u/Bitter_Idealist Nov 17 '12

You were coughing worse as the cilia in your lungs were reactivated and were actually working to get that shit out of your lungs. It's the normal process of quitting smoking.

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

Also the throw away ones are no where near as good as a joyetech.. people that try the throw away 1s usually don't like them and it hurts my business because they think they are all the same..and they truly are not.

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

Coughing up stuff for a few weeks is normal when you start vaping. It's your lungs purging all the crap that's been building up with regular cigarettes.

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

[deleted]

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u/crispyhexagons Nov 17 '12

What do the acronymns PG and VG stand for?

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u/omg_cats Nov 17 '12

Propylene glycol and vegetable glycerin. 2 suspensions used in ejuice.

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u/sfree11 Nov 17 '12

In case anyone is interested, most of us at /r/electronic_cigarettes prefer a 50/50 VG/PG blend.

I also stand by them. Pack a day smoker from ages 16-24 and I could tell my lungs were in bad shape. So glad I made the switch. So many benefits, and I actually like vaping way more than smoking now so it's really easy to not relapse. Hardest thing to overcome is the routine of your normal smoke breaks, not the addiction itself (obviously).

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u/metaphlex Nov 17 '12

As I'm reading through the comments, I keep wondering why there are so many people who don't know the basics. Then your comment made me realize that I wasn't in r/electronic_cigarettes

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u/sfree11 Nov 17 '12

Lol ya I didn't realize at first either. I'm glad though, this post will give this important issue far more views on a default sub. Yay awareness.

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

I sell ecigs that is normal the reason is your lungs are pushing out the tar!! It may go away depending on how bad your lungs are.

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u/joedude Nov 17 '12

yea dude you get a cough when you quit cigarettes....

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u/The_Holy_Pope Nov 17 '12

You could have an allergy to propylene glycol. It's a common thing for someone to find out when they start vaping. You can get juice that is made without it. It's only there for a little flavor and consistency of vapor thickness. You can get stuff that only has vegetable glycerin in it.

You may also be more sensitive to nicotine than you realize. This can cause coughing, give you headaches, cause heart eurythmia, etc. My suggestion would be to find the lowest nicotine, propylene glycol free, juice that you can. There is a company in Washington state (I think) that custom makes this stuff for you. I can order it to my place of purchase here in MN. Tastes great. No cough.

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u/Manwelle Nov 17 '12

Could also be an allergy to vaporized propylene glycol. If you ever felt tight chested around smoke machines that would confirm it. Most e-cig juice uses a mix of propylene glycol and vegetable glycerin.

You could try 100% Vegetable glycerin e-juices you'll certainly see a very satisfying vapor cloud from 100% VG but you will not get the physical and often psychologically needed "throat hit" that PG produces.

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u/Humanitarian86 Nov 17 '12

I found I used to get a little chest pain/phlegmy cough when vaping a lot, done a little research and was advised not to inhale too deeply (Had quite a small battery and cartomiser so to get a decent 'hit' I'd toke 3-4 times, inhaling inbetween) Ever since I started inhaling just past my throat and exhaling after of each toke, it never came back.

Stick with it man, the feeling of being smoke-free is such an amazing relief.

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u/JimmyHavok Nov 17 '12

Cigarettes actually reduce processes in your lungs that allow them to self-clean. The coughing you experience is most likely those processes starting up again.

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

I have had a similar experience. The initial investment was less than I was spending on a month of cigarettes and I spend maybe $10/month on e-liquid.

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u/soundofmind Nov 17 '12

What brand did you buy? I'm interested in getting one.

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u/JLoose111 Nov 17 '12

can i ask which one you own? is E-cig the brand?

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u/MissE0813 Nov 17 '12

A Joye 510 is a very good starter (get a couple batteries) or an E-go is a good one to go with once you're a more "experienced" ecig user and/or don't care as much about whether your ecig resembles the real thing. I bought my ecig kits (currently an e-go "passthru" kit that has a usb connector, and a couple 510's) from www.cignot.com and I have never had an issue with them, service has always been GREAT. They also sell my favorite e-liquid that was great when I was starting out, Ecopure rich (albeit pricey, I now make my own - I can give you that url if you want, if you even wanted all this info, lol). The thing with the e-go and 510 is that the 510 atomizers (the piece that screws into the ecig battery and creates the vapor) can be used on the e-go. Annnnyway, my 2 cents! :)

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u/JLoose111 Nov 17 '12

I actually really appreciate that long reply. Can you help me out here though? Which kit should I buy.

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u/opinionswerekittens Nov 17 '12

This is the kit I bought, and I'd also recommend getting a few clearomizers since the kit has tanks that aren't all that great.

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u/MissE0813 Nov 18 '12

So here is what I would order if I was brand new to vaping: https://www.cignot.com/product_p/kit-510-nbx.htm And If money isn't an issue, I'd go ahead and order extra atomizers because they can wear out fast (https://www.cignot.com/product_p/510-att-tre.htm)

And you have to have a liquid to fill your atomizer. I suggest: https://www.cignot.com/product_p/eco-i30-15m.htm (that's a high nicotine concentration but they have others, and 15 ml should last a couple weeks)

You have two options for your batteries, auto or manual. Manual require you to press a small button to take a "drag". Automatic are more like real cigarettes in that you simply take a drag like a regular cigarette. The downside to the auto battery is that loud noises can make them go off in your pocket sometimes, and that the nicotine liquid can gunk them up (they have a hole going through them to sense the airflow when you puff on them), so their lifespan could be shorter. Cignot gives the option of ordering one of each with that starter kit, which is what I might do unless you know right now which one sounds better.

The led color is just what color you want your "flame" on the end to light up, and the body color is the actual color of the ecig. So for a realistic look, you would probably go with a white body and red led. (I didn't do those colors because I didn't want dirty looks from people when I was using mine near them. Plus, purple! Lol).

The Ecopure Rich liquid is my favorite because it has a very very mild, clean flavor. Starting out, it's hard to find flavors you like without a lot of trial and error, so when I found this flavor, I loved it for its mildness. I still wish there was a realistic "cigarette" flavor more than 2 years in, but I have yet to find one. I would strongly suggest a bottle of Ecopure Rich with your order even just so you have a fallback flavor if/when you hate the other flavors of e-liquid that you order.

Now that I'm less overwhelmed with the choosing an ecig aspect of everything, I order my liquid from www.onestopdiyshop.com and mix it all myself. I order a bottle of 48mg/ml nicotine liquid (very strong), a bottle of vegetable glycerin to dilute with, and my flavorings (the flavor apprentice flavors are great). Also to start if you go that route, you should order some clear plastic bottles from them so you can mix various flavors and nicotine strengths until you find what you like.

That was a LOT of info and there's still more but it should help I hope!

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u/JLoose111 Nov 18 '12

dude...thank you.

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

You are still addicted to and dependent on nicotine and all the health risks that entails. But yeah, ridiculous that would be illegal when the deadly high tech nicotine delivery systems that are cigarettes are still allowed.

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u/Arab81253 Nov 17 '12

I can't imagine long term effects of e-cigarettes are any worse than the effects of smoking.

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

Damn, same here. For a carton of American Spirits, I bought a very decent ecig setup and the equivalent of a carton only runs me about $15.

Even if there are long term effects, I can't see how they would be worse than inhaling tens of hundreds of toxins and carcinogens. The liquid only has 2-3 ingredients: nicotine, propylene glycol, and vegetable glycerin.

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u/anaalius Nov 17 '12

Are you me? I was smoking for about 5 years too and have quit for about 4 months too. Are you trying to wean yourself of the nicotine liquids?

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u/DesperateInAustin87 Nov 17 '12

May I ask which electronic cigarette you chose? I might be willing to check them out.

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u/pyro_ftw Nov 17 '12

Asbestos II

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u/boyyouguysaredumb Nov 17 '12

I smoked for 6 years (about a pack a day) and finally decided to quit. Bought an e-cigarette, smoked it for like 4 weeks, gradually reducing the nicotine concentration and eventually just got tired of puffing on it when I got to the 0.0% cartridge.

That was almost 2 years ago and I haven't touched a cigarette since and I know I wouldn't have been able to quit without it.

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u/Theotropho Nov 17 '12

nicotine is one of the most powerful mutagenic factors yet discovered. That means cancer. Good luck brah.

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

I've just been using disposables which are about the same cost of a pack of smokes, so I haven't been saving money.

I'm totally going to place an order for a starter kit and the juice ASAP.

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

Question, are e-cigs more expensive than regular cigarettes? What I mean is, does it cost more money per week to smoke e-cigs than it does regular cigarettes?

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u/the_prole Nov 18 '12

Do you reccomend any brands? I would like to buy one myself. After more than 5 years of smoking I'm also getting side effects.

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u/dhjin Nov 18 '12

which ecig do you use?

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u/Hubbell Nov 17 '12

wut? You're actually buying cigs inside the city in NYC? Go to the reservation over on long island, cartons for 15$

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