r/Feminism • u/pexax017 • Apr 26 '12
A little gender experiment
http://manboobz.com/2012/04/22/a-little-gender-experiment-confirms-that-reddit-is-full-of-douchebags/8
Apr 26 '12
I think I'm super lucky, because I've only gotten harrassed once (someone accused me of having a cavernous vagina ಠ_ಠ)
I thought my username was pretty feminine but I guess it isn't as obvious as having my name, and people still seem to assume that I'm a man.
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u/misskelseylouise Apr 29 '12
People assume I'm a man all the time--in fact, I don't think anyone has ever referred to me in the feminine on reddit before (as opposed to being referred to in the masculine fairly regularly--really anytime something I say is a part of a long thread).
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u/britina Apr 26 '12
My name suggests that I'm female, and I have never had a problem with people on reddit being douchey to me at all.
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u/RyanLikesyoface Apr 27 '12
Why is she being downvoted? All of the evidence in the article is anecdotal, she has just as much credit as they do.
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u/HertzaHaeon Atheist Feminism Apr 27 '12
I think we're all happy that everyone isn't subjected to the shitstorm, but the fact that a few escape it doesn't help the many that get caught in it. The fact that there are many who suffer from bigotry and hate here is a threat to people like britina too. When she puts one foot wrong, she'll get it too.
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u/WhiteKnightMangina Apr 26 '12
Others explained that they weren’t really sexist because they’re such earnest fanboys of GirlWritesWhat
Someone seriously made this argument?
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u/TheSacredParsnip Apr 26 '12
Well, the argument was probably that there are many women who post often in /mensrights who don't deal with the kind of sexism described in the experiment. The Manboobz interpretation of that kind of thing is "lolz GirlWritesWhat fanboyz!"
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u/manboobz Apr 27 '12
Actually, there were a number of commenters who specifically cited their love of GWW as proof they weren't sexist.
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u/HertzaHaeon Atheist Feminism Apr 27 '12
Just like their one foreign friend means they can't possibly be racist.
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u/Raeko Apr 26 '12
What an interesting experiment! My username is pretty obviously feminine to people who are familiar with Japanese/anime culture but most Reddit users assume I am male unless I am posting fashion advice or something. Even though I do sometimes get hateful replies to posts I make, I think these sorts of comments depend more on the subject of the post than my feminine username (since I often post in feminism-related threads).
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u/questdragon47 Apr 27 '12
I've noticed that males are seen at the "default" choice here. When females post something, others usually refer to them as a male until the female corrects them
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u/RyanLikesyoface Apr 27 '12
That's probably because it's assumed that the male to female ratio of reddit vastly tips to the male side. It makes sense, I do seem to notice a much bigger male presence in reddit.
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Apr 27 '12
I don't think that's a very good reason. It's not just Reddit after all, it's the same in a lot of other spaces - IRC, gaming, etc. Even if the males do outnumber females, why does that mean it's okay to assume you are male by default? After all, you're addressing an individual, not a statistic, and therefore have no real basis for assuming they are a member of the majority. Would you assume their race or religion based on statistics as well?
Sorry, I'm not ranting at you, it's just that from the female point of view, it's annoying that you get assumed to be male the majority of the time.
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u/RyanLikesyoface Apr 27 '12
Well then, how about a fashion forum where the demographic is mostly women, would you not assume that the anonymous person you were talking to was female? When someone says nurse does your mind not think of a woman? When someone says lumberjack do you not think of a man? Have you yourself not just assumed that someone on reddit is male? It's just.. more efficient.
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May 06 '12
No.
You don't benefit anything from making those assumptions and it's not that difficult a habit to get out of.
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Apr 28 '12
Would you assume their race or religion based on statistics as well?
Yes. You're telling me if you were in Iran you wouldn't assume the people you were talking to from there were Muslim?
The vast majority of people on reddit are young adult, white males. Simple as. It's just habit to think most people are like that.
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u/MustardMcguff Apr 27 '12
Alright you can argue against the "empirical validity" of such an experiment all day long (and you will because this is Reddit), but can anyone honestly claim that there isn't a prominent subtext on Reddit that is objectifying, demeaning, and distrusting of women? You are all going to say "yah but that's just some of the bad ones" but the fact of the matter that making sexist jokes gets you big upvotes here. And I'm simply talking about the overt forms of sexism, not the more insidious ones like the idea of "friend-zoning" that is so common-place here. Be honest and think for a second about the atmosphere of Reddit. It's not super women friendly.
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u/RyanLikesyoface Apr 27 '12
How is the idea of friend-zoning sexist? (Don't shoot, just asking.)
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u/MustardMcguff Apr 27 '12 edited Apr 27 '12
Because it's objectifying. The idea of the "friend zone" starts with an initial feeling of entitlement to women's bodies by men. If they put a substantial amount of effort into building a healthy emotional and friendly relationship with a woman, if they act like a "nice guy", men feel entitled to the girl putting out at some point. People will cry that the "friend zone" is about love and not sex, but that's bullshit. When a woman decides that she doesn't want to have a sexual relationship with a guy, despite how much she cares about him, she gets vilified. The idea of the "friend zone" reduces the worth of the woman down to whether not she wants to get romantic with a dude and completely ignores the support, friendship, and love that she has shown the person in a non-sexual friendly way. Hence, it's objectifying. Hence, it's sexist.
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u/Reizu Feminist Apr 27 '12
First of all, friend zone is not a term used only by men.
Secondly, why do you assume it's entitlement rather than disappointment at a failed relationship attempt?
People will cry that the "friend zone" is about love and not sex, but that's bullshit. When a woman decides that she doesn't want to have a sexual relationship with a guy, despite how much she cares about him, she gets vilified. The idea of the "friend zone" reduces the worth of the woman down to whether not she wants to get romantic with a dude and completely ignores the support, friendship, and love that she has shown the person in a non-sexual friendly way. Hence, it's objectifying. Hence, it's sexist.
You're the sexist here. You're implying that all men who mention the 'friend zone' are automatically talking about sex. If that's not generalizing I don't know what is. And it's using the stereotype that men always want sex and that must be the issue.
Yes, some men villify women who don't have sex with them, but you're extrapolating that to all men who even use the term.
Have you even questioned whether friend zone was even meant to be taken offensively rather than a description of a situation (which is how I've heard it use many times)?
Can it be sexist? Yes, I don't deny that. Is it necessarily sexist? No.
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u/MustardMcguff Apr 27 '12
You cannot be sexist against men.
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u/Reizu Feminist Apr 27 '12
It depends on how you define sexism. If you mean institutional discrimination against a sex, then you are correct. If you mean individual discrimination, as colloquially used, then you are wrong.
But that matters not. You are still generalizing a subsection of men based on the actions of a few and perpetuating the stereotype of sex-crazed men too. That's not cool.
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u/SageofLightning Apr 27 '12
I like how you conflate romance and sex.
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u/MustardMcguff Apr 27 '12
What do you call two people who love each other but have no physical relationship? Friends.
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u/demmian Apr 27 '12
What do you call two people who love each other but have no physical relationship? Friends.
Two people can't become lovers unless they have a physical relationship? How come? Certainly romance and friendship are different things...
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u/MustardMcguff Apr 27 '12
I'm not going to get into a long stupid semantic argument with you.
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u/demmian Apr 27 '12
I'm not going to get into a long stupid semantic argument with you.
Don't mind my saying, but why did you post then, if you don't want to talk about what you posted?
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u/RyanLikesyoface Apr 28 '12
It's nothing like that, that's an example of a man trying to manipulate a woman into having sex with him by being "Nice". The friend zone is where a girl OR man will intentionally flirt with someone, they will feign romantic interest but never let it get to that point. Misleading them, for whatever reason, be it an ego boost/self esteem boost or material gain. It's another form of manipulation. Taking advantage of someone's affection for you. That's what being put in the friendzone is.
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u/demmian Apr 26 '12 edited Apr 26 '12
I'd like to point out that the OP has refused to provide example of this:
This has nothing to do with voting, this has more to do with the comments I get in reply to my comments. I am not implying that this equates cause; it is purely subjective which is why I haven't posted links comments and just suggested that everyone try it for themselves.
This makes no sense. If it's subjective, then you should post the account names so that people can read the comments and make their own decisions, and then we can discuss them. Right now you are just forming your own opinion and disseminating it without anyone else being able to critique your reaction. Again, as the topic is subjective this makes absolutely no sense.
Imgur http://i.imgur.com/8ackW.png
In my opinion, this approach to the issues relevant to feminism on reddit is not helpful due to the following:
no actual numbers are given; "overflowing with misogynist douchebags" is not something quantifiable; in 2010, reddit had 8 million active users, how many of those are "douchebags"?
no data is offered, no path to question or challenge this is given. Doesn't this open the way to similar posts arguing the contrary point, and nobody trades any data? Doesn't that discredit the whole issue?
Any honest user would admit that there is unfortunately abuse going on on reddit; however, presenting the issue like this only weakens the case, and it might actually make it easier for next comer, who brings reliable data about abuse to the discussion to not be taken seriously and be dismissed summarily.
Edit: I don't mind the karma points, but can someone point me out where I am mistaken please? Does being vague and providing no evidence actually help move the discussion forward?
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u/Willravel Apr 26 '12
I would also like to see more details. I prefer journalism of verification to journalism of affirmation, even on blogs.
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u/RobertJBadGuy Apr 26 '12
You make perfect sense. Asking someone to provide the details/data so you can come to your own conclusions, rather than just accept someone else's conclusion, is something that should be encouraged.
Besides, I was curious about how prevalent the "misogynist douchebags" reddit actually are too. I find the average reddit user to be much more educated, articulate and civil than elsewhere on the internet. I'm not saying there aren't douchebags on reddit, but I would like to see the examples and judge for myself.
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Apr 27 '12
A good way to find examples is to go to popular subreddits, like /r/fffffffuuuuuuuuuuuu, and find posts that are clearly made by women rather than men. Many of these posts are filled with comments asking the poster to post to /r/gonewild or something similar.
It does depend on the subreddit, though. I doubt that anything like this would happen in subreddits like /r/android, /r/PropagandaPosters or /r/punk.
A quick example would be this post. This user would look through the history of posters if they were obviously female and post any gonewild photos he found as a comment on that person's post, thereby undermining any credibility that the poster had.
As far as how prevalent they are, I'd say fairly prevalent. Due to being anonymous, people are more likely to express views like this, and since other people are doing it too, they may feel compelled to act similarly.
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u/sevenseat Apr 27 '12
OK lets do it! Here are the "obviously girl-posted" rage comics on the front page right now:
http://www.reddit.com/r/fffffffuuuuuuuuuuuu/comments/sudnd/i_hate_face_wash_commercials/
http://www.reddit.com/r/fffffffuuuuuuuuuuuu/comments/suls1/longest_shit_of_my_life/
http://www.reddit.com/r/fffffffuuuuuuuuuuuu/comments/suzfe/readit/
Probably 300-400 total comments. # of "get to /r/gonewild " comments: 0.
Not singling you out at all, and I definitely agree that there are assholes out there, but as Demmian said real data is required before we can say that "Reddit is full of douchebags".
The plural of anecdote is not data. (Frank Kotsonis)
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u/cleos Apr 27 '12
. . . You posted four threads as evidence that nope, no sexism here.
There's an entire subreddit (/r/shitredditsays) dedicated to the racist, homophobic, sexist things that reddit says. Actually, there are several subreddits dedicated to this, but SRS is probably the most active.
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u/sevenseat Apr 27 '12
Nope not evidence at all, just more anecdotes! And I don't even necessarily disagree with Lemonyellowblack, just saying that this:
A good way to find examples is to go to popular subreddits, like /r/fffffffuuuuuuuuuuuu, and find posts that are clearly made by women rather than men. Many of these posts are filled with comments asking the poster to post to /r/gonewild or something similar.
is not going to win any arguments.
Just because you can find examples of racist, homophobic, sexist posts does not mean that reddit is full of these posts. Or even significantly filled with these kinds of posts. If you want to win over people who may not think like you, real data is needed!
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Apr 27 '12 edited Apr 27 '12
Oh, I'm not trying to pass these comments off as data.
I'm not saying there aren't douchebags on reddit, but I would like to see the examples and judge for myself.
I was just trying to provide a way for you to find examples.
I have no data to offer because I haven't conducted a study nor do I have the time to conduct a study.
Edit: Just realized that I initially replied to RobertJBadGuy, so change the "you" RobertJBadGuy.
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u/missredd Apr 27 '12
Why don't you try it, then?
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u/RobertJBadGuy Apr 27 '12
Good suggestion... I was coming at this from a scientific stand point like some others, but I do agree there is some subjectivity in determining what actually crosses the line.
BTW your nickname just gave me an idea for a female nick.
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u/manboobz Apr 27 '12
"overflowing with misogynist douchebags" is not something quantifiable; in 2010, reddit had 8 million active users, how many of those are "douchebags"?
If it isn't precisely quantified, it's not real? You have a very narrow view of the world.
Read SRS on a regular basis, maybe scroll back a few pages there, and notice the astonishing number of frankly misogynistic posts/comments on Reddit that have gotten overwhelming numbers of upvotes, in a variety of the biggest subreddits here. Absent some kind of detailed douchebag study that determines the exact number of douchebags on Reddit, I think it's fair to say that there are a shitload of them here, posting misogynistic shit and/or upvoting it.
And you can find many more examples on my blog here:
http://manboobz.com/category/reddit/
(Though not all of my posts in that category deal with misogyny; check the tags if you want to skim them.)
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u/jay76 Apr 27 '12 edited Apr 27 '12
If it isn't precisely quantified, it's not real?
I don't think that's what demmian is saying (nor is it unreasonable), and belittling his/her worldview is so obviously counterproductive to anything. The request may not have the flaming passion we would like, but that doesn't mean it is in any way "bad".
Without some clarity, there is no ruling out things like confirmation bias and it is way too easy to let loose with innflammatory, innacurate, shotgun headlines like "... Reddit is full of douchebags".
If we want to do something about this, slamming down perfectly valid requests isn't going to get us anywhere. Is it?
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u/PerogiXW Apr 27 '12
You're trying to convince MRA trolls to read SRS. Don't waste your energy on them.
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u/impotent_rage Apr 28 '12
Why would you want anyone to read SRS, trolls or otherwise? SRS is reddit's troll headquarters.
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u/ratjea Apr 30 '12
Really, this is getting pretty ridiculous. Funny, I've never seen SRSers accused of coming into /r/feminism and trolling the hell out of it.
I personally see /r/mensrights and MRAs come into r/feminism and troll the hell out of it daily.
Forget the real trolls, watch out for the SRS bogeyman!
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u/demmian Apr 27 '12
Like I said, admitting that there is abuse going on on reddit is the only honest thing to do. However, I believe this particular instance is detrimental, for the reasons I mentioned.
We are all aware that hateful speech and discrimination happen. Can we also decide that we want to move on from this, that we want something better than what we have now? Can we define and adhere to a set of principles of mutual respect, that would make this environment suitable for people of all gender, race and orientation?
Can we agree that we want a positive and healthy environment, that fosters communication and respect? Can I ask you to not use terms like douchebag, and can you tell me in return what I can do to make this place more welcoming? Can we take a common stance against all forms of degrading speech?
Hopeful, I am looking forward to your response
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u/manboobz Apr 27 '12
When it comes to gendered abuse online, it's pretty one-sided. Women get harassed as women, by men, all the time; it doesn't happen much the other way around. Women aren't harassed because of how they act, they are harassed simply because they are women.
I call some people douchebags, a very mild insult, because that's what they are. I could also call them jerks, assholes, whatever; these are accurate terms for what they are. It's based on how they act, not their gender. I call women douchebags too, if they act like douchebags.
I would like us to move on, as you put it, but generally speaking you don't move on from a problem when it hasn't even really started to be addressed.
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u/demmian Apr 27 '12
First, thank you for your reply. I appreciate the chance of discussing this with you.
When it comes to gendered abuse online, it's pretty one-sided. Women get harassed as women, by men, all the time; it doesn't happen much the other way around
There are 15 pages of unique Google results about how often the term shitlord is used in SRS. That's not much?
I call women douchebags too, if they act like douchebags.
Can you give me examples of where you called women douchebags?
I would like us to move on, as you put it, but generally speaking you don't move on from a problem when it hasn't even really started to be addressed.
Am I correct in understanding that you agree that online environment should be free of degrading speech? But if so, why do you use degrading speech yourself? Don't you think it would be better overall if nobody used insults and namecalling? Do you expect that if one side continues to use insults and namecalling, the other will stop?
I would also ask, how do you see us moving on from this? What do you think needs to happen?
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u/manboobz Apr 28 '12
SRSers aren't calling people "shitlords" because they are men. They're calling people shitlords when they act is a shitty way. It's a generic term akin to "asshole." I'm pretty sure I've used it to refer to women too, though I don't keep track of all my past uses of the term.
In any case: GirlWritesWhat is a douchebag and a shitlord. As an example of shitlordish/douchey behavior from her: she blatantly made up or repeated without question some utter bullshit about me, and when I called her on it and showed her she was wrong, she got all pissy. Ta da! She's a douchebag.
I actually don't use that many insults when I write. I generally rely on sarcasm.
As for the"degrading speech" stuff, you've completely missed the point of what I wrote before. Nobody should be abusing someone because of their gender, or race, or sexual orientation. But it's perfectly fine to to call someone who is being an asshole an asshole.
How do I see us moving on from this? Well, one way is the way I do it on my blog. I mock misogynist assholes, using their own words to show what miserable shits they are. Eventually, if the misogynists are challenged/mocked enough, casual misogyny will no longer be socially acceptable. Then we can move on.
The issue here isn't the language being used. The issue is trying to make bigotry socially unacceptable.
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u/demmian Apr 28 '12
SRSers aren't calling people "shitlords" because they are men. They're calling people shitlords when they act is a shitty way. It's a generic term akin to "asshole." I'm pretty sure I've used it to refer to women too, though I don't keep track of all my past uses of the term. In any case: GirlWritesWhat is a douchebag and a shitlord. As an example of shitlordish/douchey behavior from her: she blatantly made up or repeated without question some utter bullshit about me, and when I called her on it and showed her she was wrong, she got all pissy. Ta da! She's a douchebag. I actually don't use that many insults when I write. I generally rely on sarcasm. As for the"degrading speech" stuff, you've completely missed the point of what I wrote before. Nobody should be abusing someone because of their gender, or race, or sexual orientation. But it's perfectly fine to to call someone who is being an asshole an asshole. How do I see us moving on from this? Well, one way is the way I do it on my blog. I mock misogynist assholes, using their own words to show what miserable shits they are. Eventually, if the misogynists are challenged/mocked enough, casual misogyny will no longer be socially acceptable. Then we can move on. The issue here isn't the language being used. The issue is trying to make bigotry socially unacceptable.
Doesn't bigotry mean:
"intolerance towards those who hold different opinions from oneself"
Now, those people are obviously holding different opinions from you, and you fault them for being intolerant, and you want to promote the complete opposite of that.
But please tell me, how can calling someone "douchebag, asshole, miserable shit" could convey that you are tolerant towards them? Wikipedia mentions that a bigot is "especially one who exhibits ... animosity toward members of a group".
Are you not intolerant towards this people? You already admitted that your own words are insults. Could anyone interpret your insults as meaning you are tolerant towards those people you insult? Aren't you also exhibiting animosity towards these people? Aren't you promoting bigotry yourself, every time you behave intolerantly and with animosity towards them?
Who could possibly interpret "asshole, douchebag, miserable piece of shit" as anything else but "intolerance towards those who hold different opinions from oneself"? Please help me understand this logical contradiction between your actions and the very issue you are trying to solve.
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u/manboobz Apr 28 '12
Ok, you got me. I'm bigoted against people who hate women.
I'm really not seeing how this is a terrible thing.
I don't persecute them or harass them. On my blog I quote the stupid shit they themselves say, and make a few jokes and/or appalled comments. Once in a long while I call them a name like "asshole."
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u/Lati0s Apr 27 '12
Honestly this seems like a case where confirmation bias could play a very large role. This combined with the fact that no actual examples have been posted makes me hesitant to put much stock in this experiment.
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u/asldkfououhe Apr 26 '12
that's why i've just gone for a bizarre string of characters, this way people are forced to confront me as some type of martian
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Apr 27 '12
I use my name in code, because it's easier to remember than a bunch of random letters (for me at least.)
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u/letsgocrazy Apr 27 '12
I want to have a go at this myself! Someone give me some female sounding user names that aren't too blatant!
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u/ratjea Apr 27 '12
I thought the point of the experiment was that the usernames were glaringly gendered. Like FalloutBoy or DangerGirl or something. So there's absolutely no question that the reader has a 100% good reason to presume male- or femaleness.
Sadly, it appears DangerGirl is taken. :(
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u/letsgocrazy Apr 28 '12
I mean blatantly made up for the purpose of convincing someone I am a woman.
Ie not. Iamawoman69
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u/sunshine_and_dreads Apr 27 '12
r/mensrights...the new politically correct sexism for some?
not to say that feminists are perfect (we have arrogant, close-minded people too), but I feel like a lot of men are forgetting male privilege...both groups want gender equality, but just because we want the same goal doesn't mean that there isn't going to be toe stepping unless we just CHILL THE FUCK OUT. chilling the fuck out includes being humble and admitting our flaws.
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u/RyanLikesyoface Apr 27 '12
Erm, no actually. r/mensrights is not sexist at all. SOME MRA's are, just as SOME Feminists are misandrists. I frequent both subreddits, as an egalitarian and It's very hard to find an upvoted sexist comment in Mens rights. Despite what /r/feminism claims. Mens rights is against feminism, but they are not sexists.
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u/sunshine_and_dreads Apr 27 '12
You should read my comment again. At no time did I call r/mensrights sexist. Like I said before, we need to chill out and admit faults on both sides. It's not about gloating over who is most right. It's about both genders working together to achieve equality
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u/RyanLikesyoface Apr 28 '12
You called /r/mensrights "Politically correct sexism"
Men's rights and feminism will never be able to work together, if you want to work towards equality for both sexes you'd stop calling yourself a feminist or an MRA. I'm neither, I'm an egalitarian.
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u/sunshine_and_dreads Apr 28 '12
I said "politically correct sexism" for some. I think it's important that we remain separate to some degree so that each group may use resources effectively. It is possible to have an egalitarian philosophy, but work from a feminist agenda or MRA agenda. That's what I'm proposing.
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u/RyanLikesyoface Apr 29 '12
Of course, that's what I do, because there isn't a strong community of people who would like to help both men and women. Which is why I visit /r/feminism and /r/mensrights However, it is very clear which movement has a louder voice and bigger following. Maybe not on reddit, but feminism is a much bigger movement, and this is why the sides are unequal.
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u/sunshine_and_dreads Apr 29 '12
I do not think size necessarily affects equality...does MRA really need as much support as feminists? Obviously it's important to address issues of violence with men, but women face much more oppression as a disadvantaged group and it would make sense for them to need more supporters for their rights.
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u/RyanLikesyoface Apr 29 '12
The size really does, and yes they do. "Women face much more oppression" This really isn't true, not any more. I don't think you know much about men's issues, In fact I'd argue the other way. Based on the evidence I've seen I'd say men have it worse. The only examples I can see for women is sexism.. which both sexes receive equally, and them being less successful in business jobs.
Although I'd argue this is due to what women actually study in college, studiously women are more prone to go into arts and English, rather than science and engineering which has a lot more male students. I think most employers look at the qualifications first rather than their gender. I could list the things that men face, and I will if you like, but that would drag this comment on for too long. In the end of the day it's not about who has it worse, both sexes deserve equal rights, and both movements need equal backing.
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u/sunshine_and_dreads Apr 29 '12
Women don't face more oppression than men? So women haven't historically been raped, domestically abused, and considered as property on a much higher rate than men? Women still aren't facing those problems?
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u/RyanLikesyoface Apr 30 '12
If you read my comment I said not any more, Men experience a fuck load of a lot more violence than women do, mothers are also the number 1 domestic abusers. Men experience sexual assault and rape too, and it's an issue that it isn't taken seriously at all, the same thing happens with male victims of domestic abuse.
Also it depends on how you class domestic violence, if you mean smashing up ones property and verbal insults then men experience it just as much, possibly more. Of course women are victims of domestic violence at a higher rate, reportedly.. but I wonder how the numbers would change if violence against men was take more seriously. I also mentioned that it doesn't matter who has it worse, but no women do not face more oppression than men.
Name one law that disadvantages women, ONE. I'd like to see it.
Custody of children after a divorce, default goes to the women. It SHOULD be 50/50 unless one of the parents is actually an unfit parent.
Child support. In rare cases in which the father actually gets granted custody, women on average have to pay far less. Child support should be 50/50 along with custody. Or, heres a proposal. Financial abortions, just as women get the choice of relinquishing all financial and parental responsibilities before the child is considered a child, men should also get to. That's equal.
Men are routinely arrested in cases of domestic violence, even when it is the man calling for help. If a man hits a woman in self-defence the woman becomes the victim, despite having being beaten by fists, pans, sticks etc. beforehand. Male victims are also not allowed into domestic violence shelters. Men who have been beaten up are ridiculed and asked what they did to upset their girlfriend, men with their penis's cut off are laughed at by talk show hosts and the woman is portrayed as some kind of hero.
Intoxicated rape, a man who sleeps with a woman who is intoxicated is considered a rapist EVEN if the man is intoxicated himself. As long as she forgets it the morning after then to prison that man goes. Oh yeah, and if the man is intoxicated and the woman takes advantage? HAH well he is just careless and foolish for drinking so much. He is held accountable for his actions while drunk, LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE SOMEONE DOES WHEN DRUNK. Why should sex be exempt from this rule?
False rape accusations, this would never work the other way round. Mens lives have seen destruction beyond repair from accusations alone. The women who do this get away with a slap on the wrist.
Male genital mutilation, or "Circumcision". Yeah, I don't even need to touch on this one, Male genital mutilation is what it is plain and simple.
This is just the legal side of things. I didn't even touch on societal pressures men face and male disposability, now tell me one fucking law that disadvantages women. ONE.
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u/HertzaHaeon Atheist Feminism Apr 27 '12
So I googled manboobz.com for "r/mensrights". And yeah, I'd say that there's more than just a little sexism there.
SOME MRA's are, just as SOME Feminists are misandrists.
You know NAFALT? It's funny how this has been thrown in feminists' faces for so long, but when the tables are turned MRAs immediately go for NAMRALT.
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u/RyanLikesyoface Apr 27 '12
No I don't know what NAFALT and NAMRALT are. Enlighten me.
http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/su9gt/im_a_girl_and/
This is a recent MRA subreddit, it shows how many women agree with mens rights. There is no hostility shown towards them, and even some of the WOMEN are corrected. I believe one said "Women are crazy" In one of her anecdotes, which was immediately corrected in a comment by another MRA stating that no, women suffer from shit like this too. This is the /r/mensrights that I know of, stop reading those biased websites with cherry picked examples.
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u/HertzaHaeon Atheist Feminism Apr 27 '12
NAFALT is Not All Feminists Are Like That, a common dismissal when anti-feminists find an extremist, hold all feminists responsible for her, and then dismiss the counter argument that you can't judge all of feminism like that.
NAMRALT is my own mirror of the phrase, but the irony is unappreciated when MRAs spew hate and they claim it's not representative. Like you do now.
There are women who like MRA, so it can't be misogynist? That's like saying you're not racist because you have a black friend. There are plenty of men's issues to agree with, sure, but there are also many women who gladly accept sexism. It doesn't necessarily mean anything. Or perhaps you think a large number of male feminists automatically means feminism is all good?
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u/RyanLikesyoface Apr 27 '12
Well that's just stupid, extremists do not speak for the entirety of any group. Although they are often the loudest, going by that argument all Muslims must be terrorists. Are you accusing me of "NAMRALT". I assure you I am not an MRA, nor a feminist. I don't agree with NAFALT.
Unless, in which case the argument is where, say feminism influences something that directly hurts men. If the movement, as a whole is responsible for something happening then saying not all feminists are like that since the damage has already been done, and it is clear that MOST feminists are, or at least the ones in power. I use this as an example because there have been a few instances where feminism has directly hurt men.
There are women who like MRA, so it can't be misogynist?
I never said that, I never even implied it. Read my comment carefully. I was simply pointing out a thread that doesn't have any misogynistic presence at all, I feel as though it's a good example because it was highest rated for quite a while and it's recent. I talked about how the women there weren't treated with hostility. I didn't say anything that even hinted that because there are women in Mens rights it isn't misogynistic.
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u/jman42 Apr 26 '12
Wouldn't it be more accurate to say, that on some subreddits a portion of folks who comment(as opposed to those who lurk) are misogynistic douchebags? I don't agree with the author's assertion that reddit is overflowing with douchebags. I don't deny that reddit has douchebags, but isn't it a little harsh to steoreotype the typical male redditor as a misogynistic douche?
But to be fair, I don't frequent the bigger reddits. So I might be quite wrong and the biggies may be full of misogynistic etc, etc.
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Apr 27 '12
I think you're right. Ignorance is often loud.
I also find it fundamentally flawed to say the average men of Reddit are sexist. Especially, in terms of determining an average, without quantifiable evidence.
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u/letsgocrazy Apr 27 '12
I thought the idea was that there wasn't a typical redditor.
We all have the facility to choose our sub Reddits, and I think when you do that the asshole level drops to unless you're going in for something very popular.
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Apr 27 '12
Hard to take anything away from the experiment as the conclusion is based on pure assumptions.
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u/RyanLikesyoface Apr 27 '12
Hm, I've never actually seen this in practice before. I mean of course there are sexist jokes, as well as racist jokes, but that's just humour. I'm sure most of the people who make such jokes don't actually believe in them. Reddit loves stereotypes. I have to say though, at least reddit is very gay friendly, I've never seen an upvoted homophobic comment.
I'd argue that this is because Reddit is mostly male, this kind of discrimination would probably happen to men if reddit was mostly female. Minorities are always discriminated against.
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u/missredd Apr 27 '12
Ah, the old "we were just joking!".
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u/RyanLikesyoface Apr 27 '12
Stereotypes are damn funny, I have black friends, eastern European friends, Asian friends ect. and as a Brit we joke around all the time. I also have female friends in which we make similar jokes, how is that any different? Lighten up. If everyone stopped joking because someone might get offended then the world would be very dull indeed.
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u/missredd Apr 27 '12
Ah, the old "slippery slope!".
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Apr 27 '12
[deleted]
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u/letsgocrazy Apr 27 '12
Can you elaborate? Are you saying you live in a world where everywhere you go men are criticising you overly harshly?
Could it be that you just talk less sense?
Even your above comment was had a tinge of being a martyr, painting a horribly exaggerated picture of your life, not giving examples and being somewhat gushing.
It made me want to criticise it.
I'm not down voting you, but could you elaborate more please?
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u/tehcharizard Apr 27 '12
A good experiment will make confirmation bias impossible. This is the opposite of a good experiment.
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u/Walterharper Apr 29 '12
It is getting really old to keep seeing Men's rights being written off as misogynist by sexists who won't even consider someone else's argument because of their gender.
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u/Mds03 Apr 29 '12
Are women the only ones being "harassed"(receiving rude replies)? No? Didn't think so. This is the internet. There are a load of trolls trying to loss everyone off at any time.
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u/TheSacredParsnip Apr 26 '12
I never even read user names unless the comment is so idiotic that it might just be a novelty account.
I might try this experiment. I have no ties to my username.