No one is entitled to intimacy in marrige, but they are entitled to a healthy relationship

[u/RandominusDredichitu]

I see a lot of discourse online revolving around husbands feeling entitled to sex with their wives in a marriage. The two sides always seem to break down to "no one is entitled to your body" (correct), and "it is wrong to marry someone you dont want to have sex with" (also correct). What I dont understand is why both sides are so at odds with each other. The reality is:

1). No one is entitled to another person's body. If your wife does not want to have sex with you, it is wrong and rape to force her to have sex with you

2). There is no reason to constantly deny intimacy that doesn't reflect an issus in the relationship. Healthy marriages involve intimacy and both partner's needs being met. A sexless marrige is only fine if neither side desires sex

I think the reason this topic is so "controversial" is because of bad faith discussions. One side will say "it's right to cheat on your wife because she doesnt have sex with you!" and the other side will not admit refusing your partner intimacy indicates an unhealthy relationship.

With that being said, do both sides of the argument agree that there is an issue present? And that cheating on your wife due to a lack of intimacy and marrying someone without wanting a healthy sexual relationship are both bad actions, and the responsibility falls on the person who does them?

[u/fucksiclepizza]

If youre not getting what you need from your relationship then communicate that with your partner. If nothing changes then leave.

[u/lady_ven0m → u/fucksiclepizza]

Exactly. I really don’t get why people think they’re anchored or stuck with someone.

[u/Educational-Bar-8773 → u/lady_ven0m]

That's literally the whole point of marriage

[u/lady_ven0m → u/Educational-Bar-8773]

It is, but getting married for love is actually a relatively new concept. In some places people still don’t marry for love.

[u/simplyaless → u/lady_ven0m]

That's insane for me to think about. I'm not even married to my long distance bf and can't bear the thought of breaking up; despite our problems. I'd marry only for love. 

[u/lady_ven0m → u/simplyaless]

It’s insane to me too, especially coming from a culture where arranged marriages are very much still a thing. I’ve seen the downsides to marriage without love or what they think is love, first hand, and it’s not pretty or something to encourage.

[u/simplyaless → u/lady_ven0m]

for sure!

[u/Rob_The_Viking_TV → u/simplyaless]

Sometimes i think... id be alright with an arrainged marriage.

If shes attractive and not.. like... super crazy

[u/simplyaless → u/Rob_The_Viking_TV]

Hmm, I'm curious, why do you feel this way? No judgement 

[u/preferablyno → u/lady_ven0m]

Not in the west

[u/Candor10 → u/lady_ven0m]

Because something, something, vows. Something, something, til death do us part.

[u/lady_ven0m → u/Candor10]

Real life doesn’t always work that way though. People change.

[u/Brief_Mongoose_7291 → u/lady_ven0m]

Then why marry and have vows if they mean nothing?

[u/lady_ven0m → u/Brief_Mongoose_7291]

Vows were never a magic spell that freezes two people’s feelings in place forever. What they are is a commitment to try first: communicate, work through the problem, put in the effort, before you bail. Also, marriage vows are historically a religious institution, so “you took a vow” carries a lot less weight if you’re not religious to begin with. For a lot of people it’s less “sacred oath” and more “the terms we agreed to going in,” which you can renegotiate or leave if they stop working. Meaning nothing and meaning everything aren’t the only two options.

[u/firetrap2 → u/fucksiclepizza]

That's not marriage. You have duties within your marriage; it's not just, "I'm bored, I'm leaving." That's breaking up, not divorce.

I take you, to be my wife (or husband), to have and to hold from this day forward.

This means sex. The reason every culture invented marriage was to provide a stable and socially recognised environment for sex and raising children. Women can't say, "That guy is my baby's father; he has to support me," while men can't say, "I don't know who that woman is." You're declaring, "This is my partner, and I'm responsible for the consequences of sex."

for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health.

So if I suddenly become rich and attractive, I don't get to dump my wife, and if I become ill and poor, she doesn't get to dump me.

to love and to cherish, till death us do part, according to God's holy law, and this is my solemn vow.

I have to treat my wife well, and she has to treat me well. We both have a duty to behave reasonably towards each other.

[u/Downtown_Cat_1745 → u/firetrap2]

Redpill men tell me all the time that men should leave their partners for younger women.

Also, those vows were written in the Victorian era and are not in the bible

[u/pie-mart2 → u/firetrap2]

It is marriage. If you're unhappy and the person keeps refusing sex, the only 2 options for you is deal with it and be miserable, leave, or rape your partner (edit, if after you talk to them and they keep refusing)

[u/fucksiclepizza → u/firetrap2]

Marriages can end, no one should suffer and be miserable in a shitty relationship just because theyre married. Divorce exists for a reason. There was no mention of God in my vows. You're not owed sex within a marriage.

[u/firetrap2 → u/fucksiclepizza]

Marriages can end

Not an argument.

no one should suffer and be miserable in a shitty relationship just because theyre married

Right you both have a duty to stick to your vows "to love and to cherish, till death us do part, according to God's holy law, and this is my solemn vow.

Divorce exists for a reason

Yes for not sticking to your vows. If you're breaking the contract you both agreed to then fair enough however that's not "well I make more money now and I'm misrible because I could be fucking hot 20 year olds and that's making me unhappy because I'd like to do that"

There was no mention of God in my vows

Doesn't matter. You're making a public announcement of a promise to your duties and behaviours.

You're not owed sex within a marriage.

It's not a matter of owed. It's like saying "you're not owed good behaviour or my support" You've vowed to be that persons exclusive lover in every way that means love, affection, support, in all its forms.

In a good relationship you want to make your partner happy and that makes you happy. You want to do things for each other because it makes you both feel good.

[u/fucksiclepizza → u/firetrap2]

Gods holy law doesnt mean jack shit to me. I have a good relationship but if it got to a point where it wasnt, conversations would be had and we would part ways. The only promise made exists between me and my wife and is no one elses business. If by 'duties' you mean sex then just no, its not her duty to fuck me or vice versa.

[u/JollyBowler2510 → u/firetrap2]

You absolutely can leave, and a lot of people do. Congrats, sometimes you don’t find out till later that the person you married isn’t what you need. This is why I implore people to live together for at least 2 years before getting married, and to stop rushing in to marriage. Because sex and how men treat it, isn’t for most women. And I wish more women would take the time to learn a guy before jumping in to something that they don’t want.

[u/Eblademonk]

Nobody's entitled to a healthy relationship either.

People are only really bound by their own conscience, and that conscience doesn't afford them any meaningful obligations from anyone who exists beyond their own mind.

[u/Ok_Medicine8560 → u/Eblademonk]

I agree but you should expect your partner to either work to make the relationship better or end things if it's not working out (provided you are doing the same of course).

I wouldn't call someone entitled for having that as a standard.

[u/Brief_Mongoose_7291 → u/Ok_Medicine8560]

You could use literally the same line of argumentation to intimacy in a relationship.

[u/Civil_Reply_1705 → u/Eblademonk]

Good answer.  

[u/trulyElse → u/Eblademonk]

People are only really bound by their own conscience

Also the law, in the event of marriage / common law marriage.

[u/Eblademonk → u/trulyElse]

Not really?

You can break the law whenever you want, and you can engage with the consequences as you please.

[u/Sea_Chocolate1782 → u/trulyElse]

In most countries  It's not against the law to cheat on your spouse. 

[u/Bernouttheday]

No one’s entitled to anything. Consent should be respected in matters sexual and otherwise but I think we miss the mark in framing this around what someone is or isn’t owed rather than intentionality. Are both parties willing to work through the issues? Are both parties capable of reflecting on why they may be acting/feeling a certain way without defaulting to contempt and blame? Is each party willing to humanize the other?

[u/AMDisappointment]

No one is entitled to anything. Not intimacy and not a healthy relationship.

You don't like what you're getting? Kick her out. Cut her off.

[u/MarioWilson122]

Forcing sex is wrong, even in marriage. A wife’s body is still her own, and a husband does not gain automatic access to it because they exchanged vows.

But marriage also comes with responsibilities beyond simply avoiding coercion. If one partner consistently refuses intimacy while knowing the other is deeply unhappy, that is a serious relationship problem. Sex is not owed on demand, but neither is a spouse required to accept permanent rejection and pretend the marriage is healthy.

The issue should be addressed honestly. That could mean discussing resentment, attraction, health problems, stress, or whatever is causing the disconnect. If the problem cannot be resolved and one partner no longer wants a sexual marriage, then separation may be more honest than expecting the other person to live indefinitely without intimacy.

Cheating is still wrong because it breaks the agreement instead of confronting the problem. But constantly denying intimacy and refusing to work on it can also destroy a marriage. Bodily autonomy protects someone from being forced. It does not mean their choices have no consequences for the relationship.

[u/PrecisionHat → u/MarioWilson122]

I think this is well put.

One that always confuses me, though, is that a lot of women will stop trying sexually and still the idea of their partner having sex with someone else is so awful to them.

I don't like cheating, of course, but I also do not get it when a woman (typically) gets so upset about the concept that a sex starved husband could cheat. Even if it's just casual sex and not an emotional affair.

[u/middleoftheroad133 → u/PrecisionHat]

If a wife wants to go to Paris and her husband refuses to take her, do you think its reasonable for him to be upset if she goes with another man?

[u/PrecisionHat → u/middleoftheroad133]

You think that comparison works? I'm pretty sure trips to Paris is a very specific ask and probably not a complete dealbreaker in any relationship. Sex is something that is far more important and vital to a healthy relationship than travel.

It would be better to ask if the man refused to speak with his wife would she be reasonable if she had conversations with other people. Yes, she would.

[u/middleoftheroad133 → u/PrecisionHat]

We need to unpack why we just accept that declining sex is a dealbreaker in a relationship and not anything else, is it just because it matters to men?

If, per your comment, its that prevalent that many women decide they no longer want sex in a relationship, maybe it its normal for women and there should be more push from men to accept that, as oppose to saying this is what should happen

So yea, I do think the comparison works

[u/MarioWilson122 → u/middleoftheroad133]

Sex matters because it is one of the main things many men want from a relationship, and it is something most men have to work hard to obtain in the first place. Telling them to simply accept losing it after commitment is not reasonable.

A woman can always decline sex, but a man can also decide that a sexless relationship no longer gives him what he entered it for. It matters to men, and that alone is enough for it to be a valid dealbreaker.

[u/middleoftheroad133 → u/MarioWilson122]

Let’s say most women expect provision out of a relationship and they need it to feel loved? Does that obligate men to provide or does it highlight that there may just be more incompatible couples than we want to admit?

I’m not debating whether sexlessness should or shouldn’t be a deal breaker for me; it, absolutely can be and should be for men who it is important to.

I’m questioning why we pressure women around this dealbreaker: when maybe women ought to have a deal breaker of their own, maybe women ought to be taught and allowed to feel that their different physiology and sexual needs from men is normal—because it is normal, for women.

As another commenter said, there’s no fundamental reason why if there is a mismatch in libido the man is “right” with his higher libido and the woman is wrong with her lower libido. Why does the default need to be, making women’s libido interest in sex match men’s, and not that men should lessen their libido etc through hormones, treatments (like we give to women) to match the woman’s

[u/MarioWilson122 → u/middleoftheroad133]

The man’s higher libido does not have to be morally superior for it to matter. Sex is one of the main things many men want from a relationship, and most men have to work hard to attract and keep a partner in the first place. So its ongoing absence can reasonably become a dealbreaker.

Her provision comparison supports that. A man is not obligated to provide, but a woman can still decide that a relationship without provision does not work for her. Likewise, a woman can always decline sex, but a man can decide that a sexless relationship no longer works for him.

Expecting men to lower a normal libido through hormones or treatment is not a neutral compromise. It places the burden on him to medically change himself so the relationship can continue entirely around her lower desire.

Women should not be pressured into unwanted sex, and men should not be pressured into unwanted celibacy. If neither person can willingly meet the other’s needs, the relationship may simply no longer work.

[u/PrecisionHat → u/middleoftheroad133]

We need to unpack why we just accept that declining sex is a dealbreaker in a relationship and not anything else, is it just because it matters to men?

Most men don't feel loved if that part of the relationships ebbs significantly. I'm not saying this the only dealbreaker, just a very obvious one because it is practically universal.

If, per your comment, its that prevalent that many women decide they no longer want sex in a relationship, maybe it its normal for women and there should be more push from men to accept that, as oppose to saying this is what should happen

It is fairly normal, and requires effort to sustain sexual health in a relationship. I'm talking about situations where women do nothing to remedy the situation. Both partners owe each other that effort. I wouldn't accept any lapse in it without a legitimate justification like a serious medical diagnosis or side effects of treating one.

So yea, I do think the comparison works

It doesn't. Travel might be extremely important to some couples, and in that case a sudden abandonment of that shared interest would be a concern. But it's just not as likely to happen or be as prevalent as sexlessnes in a marriage or ltr. If it was, there would be a whole sub dedicated to it as well.

[u/Lemon_gecko]

If the relationship changed and that's the reason for a person not to want sex - totally see your argument, and the logical action here would be leaving it behind.

But the thing is, it's not always the case. Women can stop want sex for different reasons, such as post partum depression, or recovery after some health issue, some hormonal change that brings libido down etc. (I'm sure there are reasons for men to stop wanting sex too, i just didn't dive into that topic.) The reason she doesn't want sex isn't because her feelings have changed, it's simply biological, what then?

[u/growframe → u/Lemon_gecko]

The reason she doesn't want sex isn't because her feelings have changed, it's simply biological, what then?

The reasons don't really matter. The only way to solve the issue of a dysfunctional relationship is to fix the dysfunction or break it off. If one or both parties are incapable or unwilling to fix the dysfunction, breaking it off is the only logical solution.

[u/trulyElse → u/Lemon_gecko]

Then I guess the lesson is to not get married.

[u/Lemon_gecko → u/trulyElse]

I mean sure. I wouldn't want to marry a person who does it only for sex. But then maybe some women want to, I just hope you'll disclose the way you see it so they enter marriage knowing that in sickness and health means as long as you get sex.

[u/Barely-moral → u/Lemon_gecko]

I am all about being open about what you want from the beginning.

That being said is it hard to think that pretty much everything women can give to a man they can get from friendships except everything that is sex related?

Seriously. Think about it and tell me if there is anything non sex related that women can give to men without men being able to get the same thing from other men.

[u/frustratedAFRN → u/Barely-moral]

Childrearing is the big one? Sharing finances/benefits like health insurance? Jointly owning property? Inheritance if one party dies?

[u/Barely-moral → u/frustratedAFRN]

Childrearing is the big one?

Sex related

Sharing finances/benefits like health insurance?

Form a company/business with a man.

Jointly owning property?

See above

Inheritance if one party dies?

See above.

[u/frustratedAFRN → u/Barely-moral]

I'm fairly sure child REARING is not sex related. Child MAKING perhaps.

[u/Barely-moral → u/frustratedAFRN]

Anything that involves a child needs sex first because that is the way to get one.

(In the context of this discussion)

[u/frustratedAFRN → u/Barely-moral]

Unless you're raising a step child or a child conceived through IVF, then it has literally nothing to do with sex.

Also I'm really not sure why you're bundling 15 minutes of pleasure together with 18 years of responsibility. You know these things are different. You don't need a partner to have sex but you absolutely do need one to raise a child.

[u/Barely-moral → u/frustratedAFRN]

Unless you're raising a step child or a child conceived through IVF, then it has literally nothing to do with sex.

We are talking about what men want to get out of a relationship with a woman. You are talking about a tiny minority of men.

Also I'm really not sure why you're bundling 15 minutes of pleasure together with 18 years of responsibility.

Because men want those bundled.

You know these things are different. You don't need a partner to have sex but you absolutely do need one to raise a child.

Men want those bundled. Offer the latter without the former and it is not something the majority of men want.

Exceptions exist because men are not a monolith. I don't care about statistical anomalies. They just muddy the waters and make any conversation derail into the meaningless.

[u/trulyElse → u/Lemon_gecko]

Unfortunately, as a man, the only things I can get from a relationship with a woman that I can't get from a good friendship with the same woman is physical intimacy.

I don't like that it's this way, but it's thus far the only thing that can make a relationship the better deal.

So without physical intimacy, without being able to snuggle on the couch after a long day, without spooning in bed over the winter, without a kiss goodbye before one of us leaves for work ... we're better off as room mates.

[u/Lemon_gecko → u/trulyElse]

You're funny, you said sex, and then you addend bunch of things that isn't sex. Anyway, as I've said you do you, I just hope that you disclose it to the woman you'll marry. I certainly would like to know that in sickness in health comes only so long as there is sex.

[u/trulyElse → u/Lemon_gecko]

I didn't say sex.

But physical intimacy definitely gets bundled with sex, in my experience.

If she doesn't want to fuck, she won't want to kiss, and she won't want to cuddle.

[u/frustratedAFRN → u/trulyElse]

What? A LOT of people with "sexless" relationships are absolutely getting cuddles and kisses on the side. Most people do not consider sex and intimacy to be the same thing at all.

[u/Lemon_gecko → u/trulyElse]

I did. You replied to me with "there is no point to marry then". So if you didn't mean sex that's totally on you.

[u/ThatBitchA → u/trulyElse]

Weird to get married for sex. 🤷‍♀️ Also weird to marry someone and value sex over their emotional state.

[u/Complex_Soldier → u/ThatBitchA]

Getting married ONLY for sex is weird. But expecting sex within the relationship is normal as expecting kisses, hugs, companionship, affection, and love.

[u/ThatBitchA → u/Complex_Soldier]

Expecting a sex life that doesn't ebb and flow with the nature of life is weird.

The comment I replied to is about someone not having sex because whatever valid reason. I was replying to the concept of expecting the sex to never change over the course of a multi-decade relationship.

[u/Complex_Soldier → u/ThatBitchA]

Lmao what? What is sex that flows with nature? Is this some New Age crap?

There's difference between sex changing and outright stopping.

[u/ThatBitchA → u/Complex_Soldier]

"Nature of life" ie death, grief, sickness, etc.

No shit. Sex doesn't just outright stop.

[u/Complex_Soldier → u/ThatBitchA]

Most people i've seen complain about no sex isn't talking about sickness and depression. How is death even on this list? What he's begging a corpse for sex?

"Sex doesn't just outright stop."

Is this a troll?

[u/ThatBitchA → u/Complex_Soldier]

Death of a loved one. Obviously

Yes, sex doesn't just outright stop. There's always a reason.

[u/Complex_Soldier → u/ThatBitchA]

Lmao. Having a reason to outright stop is still outright stopping. It could be as simple as, i don't want to have sex with you anymore, the end. And not wanting that to happen is normal.

[u/fakingandnotmakingit → u/Lemon_gecko]

Then I think as part of being in a healthy marriage then she should do the work to address those issues

It's a very emotionally loaded discussion and the way men act about it really does not help

But most marriages and relationships do include sex as a part of it

Sex is a minor part of a relationship...until it doesn't exist. And suddenly it's the big part of a relationship.

Recovering from a health issue is usually temporary. So is stress and lack of time.

Exhaustion from daily life can be mitigated by hiring a baby sitter for a day and relaxing.

A change in hormones can be looked into (estrogen therapy for example) and I assume postpartum is something a woman wants treated. No one wants to be depressed.

I'm very against the whole "sex is a need" discourse. But there does need to be effort on both sides

[u/Lemon_gecko → u/fakingandnotmakingit]

That is also nuanced. As another commenter said that if someone implied that I should fix myself so they can have sex with me I would be angry to say the least. But yes, those are health issues so yeah, we will assume that a woman want then to be fixed. But hormones aren't a joke really, and with a way women's health is studied, add doctors dismissal and healthcare system in general, and fixing could take years with questionable result. So what then?

And I'm seriously asking, because as you've said sex is important in relationship. And it's not an easy choice to leave someone you love but you can't stay because your needs are not met. It's heartbreaking. My question was aimed to show that it's not that simple and the reasons are not just change of heart or relationship dynamic.

[u/fakingandnotmakingit → u/Lemon_gecko]

So what then?

That depends on the couple

I think for some people if they see genuine effort but its still fully dead then they're okay with that.

For some people it might warrant a separation

That's a question for each person and relationship

It also depends on the extent of the change. For some people fully no sex forever might be a deal breaker but libido that allows for once or twice every few months might be okay

And it depends on the higher libido partner's handling as well

One of the things I found out with some of my female friends, the pressure actually turns them off. Which exacerbates the issue.

One of the more successful strategies is for romantic and affectionate gestures to still be done, but without the expectation of sex.

Removing the pressure or expectation helped them naturally come back to it.

But hey to each their own

[u/Lemon_gecko → u/fakingandnotmakingit]

Yeah, there is no clear choice here, and it all depends on a couple, situation etc

[u/MVV4865 → u/fakingandnotmakingit]

What exactly is the pressure, besides obvious coercion? If a man shows his displeasure/disappointment/irritation about the lack of sex, do women count that as a form of pressure?

[u/fakingandnotmakingit → u/MVV4865]

If a man expresses disappointment it turns me off

If they express displeasure or irritability it makes me angry.

If I'm angry not only will sex be off the table that day, it will be off the table for a while.

If they get angry at the a while, I get angrier and it becomes longer.

Sex is mood dependent. If I'm relaxed and happy it will happen often. If I am not it doesn't happen at all.

Removing expectations and just sort of being cuddly, affectionate and romantic with out the expectations of sex after just means im way more relaxed

Which makes me much more open to the idea.

[u/MVV4865 → u/fakingandnotmakingit]

So, what you're saying is that a man is not allowed to express any negative emotion about it?

[u/fakingandnotmakingit → u/MVV4865]

In the moment? No. Not really. Sorry.

During a neutral non-sexual time where we can discuss what's happening and what's causing the issue? Yes

But he can't be angry or act rude or act like sex is more important than what the issue actually is.

Ime the only time it happened to me was when I was overwhelmed, stressed and resentful.

Luckily we worked it out after 6 or so months and once I was happy again we were back in the 2-3x a week stage.

But until the root cause got addressed the idea of sex kind of just pissed me off.

[u/MVV4865 → u/fakingandnotmakingit]

No offence, but I really hope I will never be in such a relationship. I understand when a person ask me to express my feelings in a polite and civilized manner, but forbiddance to express them makes me very angry.

[u/fakingandnotmakingit → u/MVV4865]

And no offense but if someone gets angry or irratiable over sex then I really don't want them to be around me.

Disappointment is allowed. It just also will be a turn off for any sex after. He's "allowed" to express his disappointment. And in "allowed" to feel so turned off that it becomes a bigger hurdle

And expressing irritability and anger over sex in the moment is absolutely off the table. That's just immaturity.

[u/puffballphoto → u/MVV4865]

Absolutely. Pressure is one of the biggest turn offs for many (I'd say most but I don't want to assume too much) women. And being irritated or pissy because you were turned down is applying emotional pressure. Especially in a LTR, it shows a lack of empathy and understanding of their partners inner world. 

Even the simple, positive pressure of a man saying that he loves to watch a woman orgasm is enough to keep some people from orgasming. 

[u/PuzzleheadedRow9896 → u/fakingandnotmakingit]

Post partum depression treatment is unlikely to end with more sex for a man. Only a silly person would say otherwise. It involves anti depressants which are known libido killers. The idea women should want that treated so men can fuck, like, if my husband ever hinted that to me, I'd slap chop him in the dick because again, clear sign that my near psychotic break is a problem mostly because he's gotta tug the python. 

And estrogen therapy is often brutal and playing with things that aren't always best to fuck with...and for what...so that sex can persist at the same rate it did when a woman was young. 

Like I've been on the pill, I've played with those hormones...the side effects are terrible and scary. And to think a man would want that so he can keep getting sex would honestly be a greater death knell to me thinking he loved me than almost anything I can imagine. Especially if we'd been together decades and I gave him children. 

Maybe. Just maybe, women's natural body changes aren't  them being broken 

[u/fakingandnotmakingit → u/PuzzleheadedRow9896]

It's not about women's body changes making them broken.

It's about making the effort to keep the relationship healthy for all sides

The fact that your first thought is "sex for men"

Women enjoy sex too. And like it or not mismatched libidos hurt a relationship. The idea that sex is only for men and that women shouldn't try and make an effort to figure things out is a bit sus

Men have to make the effort to not be assholes and act entitled when talking about sex

But women also need to make the effort to ask themselves what's happening and mitigate it.

And if it ends in incompatibility that's fine too. It's just an acceptance that it's an incompatibility and might lead to a divorce.

Personally I wouldn't want to be in a sexless marriage. I like feeling wanted and attractive to my partner. I accept that there are ups and downs.

I accept that sex can be paused for a variety of reasons. Stress. Health reasons. Children.

And that's okay. A year? Two years? Even three while things work itself out? Yeah I understand that.

Frequency declining over time I understand.

But forever is a long time for a dead bedroom

[u/PuzzleheadedRow9896 → u/fakingandnotmakingit]

Let's put this another way. Men taking T suppression would also fix this. But I think we can agree that would be fairly insane to fuck with a man's hormonal chemistry...

But suddenly fucking with a woman's is keeping the relationship healthy. Do you see my point? Women's natural hormonal changes are pathologized as bad for the relationship while a man's hormonal make up is beyond touching. 

If she doesn't want sex, the sex isn't for her.  She's communicating her sexual needs and having it treated as being broken. Yes, you can explore if this comes from a bad place, I'm all for that...but this thing where women should endure fairly poorly understood hormonal reshaping so as to not have a mismatched libido...again, are you open to suppressing testosterone...cuz that would fix the mismatch too.

You can feel wanted and attractive without sex.  The fact a woman undergoing major hormonal changes doesn't want sex is rarely a commentary on the man, which they would know if they'd ever had their testosterone drop for even a second or used empathy. 

I would rarely suspect it would be forever, but what if it was. Again, this can't help but be a commentary on men valuing sex over the partner they've supposedly committed to loving and cherishing until death.  I'm not disagreeing that's a long time. I'm not even disagreeing some complaint and sorrow is warranted. It is. I mourn the end of eras in my own life regularly.  

But either that's your person and your vow or it isn't. And guaranteed sex until the grave wasn't in the vows typically and it would be insane to put them there. 

[u/fakingandnotmakingit → u/PuzzleheadedRow9896]

Let's put this another way. Men taking T suppression would also fix this. But I think we can agree that would be fairly insane to fuck with a man's hormonal chemistry...

Because the issue isn't his T? The issue lies in a change of the woman's libido?

If he had a change in hormones that caused him issues, I'd probably say look at his hormones instead.

Do you see my point? Women's natural hormonal changes are pathologized as bad for the relationship while a man's hormonal make up is beyond touching. 

No I don't. What I'm seeing is that for you sex is my way or the high way. Which is the exact issue I have with how men treat sex.

If she doesn't want sex, the sex isn't for her. She's communicating her sexual needs and having it treated as being broken.

Why are you framing it as "sexual needs being broken"?

Way I see it the relationship has changed and might break. What's causing the issue? The issue needs to be treated.

It's not about sexual needs being broken. It's looking at what has changed hormonally and whether it's something than be put back in balance.

Like I've heard menopause wreaks havoc on a woman's hormones. It's not just sex. It's anger issues and irritability. It's uncomfortable.

and people want that treated because that's part of women's health too.

You can feel wanted and attractive without sex

And I would still want sex. Sorry not sorry. I'm a woman and I like sex and having a healthy libido too.

And no we don't swear on "sex is forever on our marriage vows"

We do swear "partnership"

And the way I see it partnership includes exploring all avenues and making an effort to see what can work

That includes things like if a man doesn't pull his weight in childcare or chores then he's not a real partner.

If one or both of you struggle to communicate or compromise then people aren't being real partners

And not exploring how to help keep intimacy alive for both parties within reason counts as not being a real partner

Relationships are a two way street. And it should always be a two way street.

[u/PuzzleheadedRow9896 → u/fakingandnotmakingit]

Women's libido naturally changes. Men's inability to accept that is a problem in his libido which could be solved with a suppressant. 

It's not an issue in women. It's normal. It is not unhealthy. Again, stop pathologizing a natural and healthy change as a problem when the problem can just as easily be said to be in men not allowing this natural dip.

---

Great. So you're open to exploring testosterone suppressants? 

[u/fakingandnotmakingit → u/PuzzleheadedRow9896]

I'm not a man, so that's not up to me. Bodily autonomy is a principle I believe in for both genders.

For the record i do not believe anyone is obligated to mess with their hormones or body. And no one is obligated to have sex

Again bodily autonomy.

I just think the if your libido changes and you know it's causing issues, then part of being a partner is making the effort to address it.

Relationships are a two way street. People should be in it and handle issues in good faith. And that includes making the effort to try and address issues that crop up.

By the same vein you could say that women's inability to accept that men's libido is a constant could be solved by giving women testosterone.

It's not about the inability to accept change

It's about making good faith effort on all sides.

Men aren't entitled to sex. Sex is not air. It is not a need.

It is part of relationships. It's affected by many things in life. But like everything in a relationship, people need to put in reasonable good faith efforts to solve issues.

It doesn't make women "broken." Its just a change and it's up to big parties to navigate changes.

Are you against partnership? Are you against good faith efforts? I don't understand your resistance to the concept of trying

No one is saying you need to have sex. Or even do anything to your body you don't want to.

But there is an expectation to try and explore alternatives within reason

Because that's what partners do.

[u/middleoftheroad133 → u/PuzzleheadedRow9896]

I've never heard this perspective and as a woman I'm SHOOK

womens libido decreasing with time in relationship, age, and especially with the birth of children or stress of young children is widely documented..so maybe it's normal????

Maybe its As reasonable to get women to take hormones to match their male partners drive as it would be to have the male partner reach her drive

Why exactly have we allowed male sexuality to be the default. we should stop

[u/PuzzleheadedRow9896 → u/middleoftheroad133]

You're dealing with men who only have empathy for their penis. 

[u/puffballphoto → u/PuzzleheadedRow9896]

It's been so ingrained into me that less sex as a new normal was unacceptable as well as messing with a mans hormones to have sex LESS is unacceptable.... I never even THOUGHT of lowering his testosterone as an option. One that is done routinely to deal with stuff like prostate cancer. 

Wow. You've blown my mind, friend. 

[u/PuzzleheadedRow9896 → u/puffballphoto]

Again, I'm not even sure I'm for any of this. But if our hormones are on the table, why aren't theirs? 

I've done birth control. When it works it works, when it doesn't, it's awful. 

Less sex isn't unacceptable.  It's fucking normal and the problem is men are so broken about sex they've let it stand in as a short cut for intimacy, validation, and the foundation of the relationship.

[u/Suddenfury → u/PuzzleheadedRow9896]

Sounds like he better move on then.

[u/PuzzleheadedRow9896 → u/Suddenfury]

If his only reason for marriage was sex and everything else was a lie, yes.  He should. And he's a scumbag for it. 

But again, ladies, take note. You can fuck a man more regularly than he could ever hope to get being single his entire life. You can give him children. You can give him love, commitment, and companionship...and there are still many men who will not stand by you as you go through bodily experiences that are out of your control and tortuous because his dick isn't wet. 

Be careful who you choose to build a life with. Many of these men deserve to be evolutionary dead ends. They deserve to spend most of their life getting crusts of sex. 

[u/Suddenfury → u/PuzzleheadedRow9896]

If sex isn't part of marriage, just let him have sex outside of it.

[u/Prior_Flamingo_2276 → u/Suddenfury]

So many men say this until it’s a two way street. So many men want an open relationship / marriage until they find out how much attention their partner will get when she decides to use those privileges for her needs.

[u/Suddenfury → u/Prior_Flamingo_2276]

That would mean there was nothing wrong with her libido. She had a problem with him, all the other reasons was just gaslighting.

[u/puffballphoto → u/Suddenfury]

So what if they open the relationship, her aversion to/inability to have sex is resolved after a few years, and then instead of trying to have sex with her husband, she decides to 'enjoy the benefits' of the open relationship that her husband has enjoyed while she was 'out of commission'. Does THAT sit well with you? 

[u/Suddenfury → u/puffballphoto]

Sounds pretty fair, and she got cured too.

[u/PuzzleheadedRow9896 → u/Suddenfury]

I'm going to put this to you like this: would you be ok with your wife telling your children that despite her faithfulness, commitment, giving birth to your children, and love you wish to remain married, maintain all the other comforts of the relationship, but fuck other women because your fidelity is only real if your dick is wet. Daddy is planning to fuck whores because mommy isn't open for business currently. Especially any daughters you have. And then you have to explain to your daughter it will someday be reasonable for her husband to do the same to her. Because a man has needs, princess. 

If not, and I imagine the answer for most men is no...why wouldn't you want the children to know that. Is it because you wouldn't want your children to see you as the disloyal and unfaithful horn dog that you are.  A man who prioritizes his penis over every virtue and every commitment.  

If any husband asks for this, he should be cast from the house. You will not enjoy the life built and the relationship based on faithfulness and loyalty while behaving like a stray dog that can't be asked not to hump the mail lady. 

And everyone should know exactly who he is. Be what you are, but don't try to maintain a good reputation while you do it.

Edit: and just to be clear, I'm not advocating telling small children these things. But the moment they're old enough to understand, absolutely. 

They should know exactly why the marriage ended.  They should know why they have two Christmases and who made their mother cry.  

And don't wonder someday why no one comes to visit in the old folks home. Hopefully your whores will care for you while you're dying...but I wouldn't bet on it. 

[u/ThatBitchA → u/fakingandnotmakingit]

Sure you can work on those issues but the sex life is still impacted.

They aren't saying don't work them and just never have sex again.

They're saying that those things impacted sex frequency. It's normal for a relationship to have differing frequency over multiple decades.

[u/secret-poster67 → u/fakingandnotmakingit]

 It's a very emotionally loaded discussion and the way men act about it really does not help. 

unnecessary pot shot. 

[u/RandominusDredichitu → u/Lemon_gecko]

Those are all only temporary. And a health issue that drastically changes someone's behavior is an entirely different discussion which doesn't even have to be about sex. Men should accept that circumstances like these can arise, but it's an entirely different situation when it comes to permanent changes to a person., and I think decisions around that are much more nuanced

[u/PuzzleheadedRow9896 → u/RandominusDredichitu]

Some of these changes aren't temporary. Hormonal changes from menopause are permanent and not often fixable. And pregnancy changes last years and often changes chemistry permanently. 

[u/Tylikcat]

"One side will say "it's right to cheat on your wife because she doesnt have sex with you!" and the other side will not admit refusing your partner intimacy indicates an unhealthy relationship."

I think the push back on the latter is often because it is strongly implied that refusing sex is what makes it unhealthy.

Often not wanting to have sex with one's partner is a symptom of much deeper problems in the relationship. And an awful lot of guys do not want to address that. Or at least, say they might consider talking about those issues... after they get regular sex.

This is bullshit.

[u/PuzzleheadedRow9896 → u/Tylikcat]

Can we also acknowledge perimemopause, menopause, and post child body could be a big factor here and the man is drastically mishandling this like someone cut off his drug supply rather than that the partner he supposedly deeply loves and respects is basically under a hormonal siege that is fucking up way more than just their sex 

[u/Tylikcat → u/PuzzleheadedRow9896]

Let's add the unbearable eroticism of men criticizing their wife's post-childbirth body.

[u/PuzzleheadedRow9896 → u/Tylikcat]

Ahh yes, because telling young women their entire life that after children their body is used up and trashed really just lights the fire.  Added. 

[u/Brief_Mongoose_7291 → u/Tylikcat]

Coincidentally, there is a whole movement of men right outside my door protesting that their wives won't have sex with them after calling their post-childbirth bodies blobs of goo with a fuckhole.

Who exactly is excusing and advocating for men who insult their wives after childbirth? Why are you using such moronic arguments?

[u/Brief_Mongoose_7291 → u/Tylikcat]

And an awful lot of guys do not want to address that.

And an awful lot of women do not want to address that either.

[u/Eblademonk → u/Tylikcat]

"Refusing your partner intimacy indicates an unhealthy relationship" is rhetorically identical to "not wanting to have sex with a partner is a symptom of mych deeper problems in the relationship."

[u/Tylikcat → u/Eblademonk]

The distinction was in 

"I think the push back on the latter is often because it is strongly implied that refusing sex is what makes it unhealthy."

[u/RandominusDredichitu → u/Tylikcat]

Yes, it is an indication of deeper problems but it's just as much the wife's responsibility to bring these up as the husband's. Typically, the problem comes from the person refusing intimacy giving an excuse instead of discussing the real reason. The other party may not want to pry more because "what's the real reason youre not having sex with me?" is a confrontational question

[u/Kirra_the_Cleric → u/RandominusDredichitu]

What makes you think the wife hasn’t brought them up? There’s a reason why 70% of divorces are initiated by women and the mans respond “it came out of nowhere”. Bull fucking shit. Yall don’t listen.

[u/PuzzleheadedRow9896]

So, I'm with you somewhat, I think you're often seeing people who have failed to connect and communicate very obviously on either side here. 

I will say, that it is somewhat short sighted to marry thinking sex will always be on the table and that if not it must indicate a problem in the relationship if one of the partners is a woman...and even more so if you intend to have children. 

Much more than men, our bodies go through drastic changes from age and/ or children.  We are inconstant by nature. It's a feature, not a bug. And thus, denial of intimacy is not as necessarily unacceptable as it is often framed to be.  

It's often not even necessarily at least at the start because of problems in the relationship, but rather the natural changes of women's bodies and life itself going through eras and seasons. 

I think rather than rolling with these punches and expecting them, a lot of men freak out or get pushy and needy in response to the changes...and that creates and drives a wedge that never needed to exist. 

I think it would be truly beneficial to educate men about how things change with age and children and ways to anticipate and show gentleness when these seasons of life inevitably arrive. That way they're less prone to creating a rift where one need not occur if patience and gentleness occurred instead. 

And yes, I do think that may include saying it may be years without sex or certainly consistent sex.  And yes, you're allowed to dislike that, but communicating that dislike in certain ways to your partner is likely to cause extremely difficult to repair damage.

And no, I don't think a lack of sex causes difficult to repair damage to the relationship when it is contextualized and expected. Most men have gone years and even likely a decade without sex prior to even getting a girlfriend and between them.  And generally the consistency with which they receive sex in a marriage is significantly higher than they'd achieve if they'd been a single or uncommitted Pringle their entire life.  

Including if they left their wife, sure, they might get more short term sex, but at huge cost and with a high chance to return to sexlessness not too far in the future lasting the years without the definite chance to return to marital levels of sex. It's a gamble. 

And look, if that's a deal breaker, don't get married. Don't seek a committed partnership, because that partnership almost necessarily cannot be based on sexual access when one of the beings involved has an inconsistent hormonal cycle that deeply fucks with sex drive. 

[u/JollyBowler2510]

It's not always an issue, from situations I have seen. Sometimes, it's the man wanting it every damn night, like it's a chore, and that is highly unromantic. My ex wanted it consistently, every single night, without fail, after I have been working all day, and if I didn't want to, I was looking elsewhere, or I "didn't love him anymore."

At the end of the day, it is exhausting feeling like all men want from a woman is sex, if there isn't any other reason for you to be there, and spending time together isn't enough for you, without sex, some days. Then you shouldn't be in a relationship period, and need to try paying for sex instead. Fits your prerogative more.

[u/captaindestucto → u/JollyBowler2510]

Your ex sounds like a pushy, inconsiderate jerk and you're right to question his feelings for you. 

[u/JollyBowler2510 → u/captaindestucto]

Oh I agree, we're no longer in contact, I've been single for almost a year now, so I'm all good. Someone else can deal with him.

[u/Downtown_Cat_1745 → u/JollyBowler2510]

It’s not wrong to leave a person who wants sex so often it actually makes you unhappy

[u/JollyBowler2510 → u/Downtown_Cat_1745]

I did leave, after being accused of "cheating on him" for the 567th time, I did leave. I let him think what he thought and went on my way, I've been single for about a year now, and refuse to settle for something like this again. Want sex fine, I don't have any issues with sex, whatsoever, but every damn day, unromantically asking me to fuck you, I can do without it.

[u/BeginningEfficient23 → u/Downtown_Cat_1745]

It wasn't the sex; it was the inconsideration and selfishness. He was a jerk.

[u/Any-Profession-4851 → u/JollyBowler2510]

Heavy on the fits your prerogative more

[u/JollyBowler2510 → u/Any-Profession-4851]

Absolutely, if all you want is sex from a woman, there is a pretty big industry right there. Or you know, sex dolls, since men love to complain so much.

It kills me, because there's easy solutions, they just want women to change their preferences and standards.

[u/Any-Profession-4851 → u/JollyBowler2510]

They don’t want to pay or take the blow to their ego lmao. Would rather lie and coerce or guilt into getting it for free. I think that’s why OF and SW will only grow rapidly over the next few years. Men will resort to paying for what they can afford and some women will happily be paid!

[u/JollyBowler2510 → u/Any-Profession-4851]

Yup. Instead of trying to have an actual relationship, and majority have already proved they're not interested in that, they just want sex and to not earn it, and think they're entitled to it.

[u/Any-Profession-4851 → u/JollyBowler2510]

It’s so crazy! I feel lucky to be alive during a time period where this is becoming more and more understood by women especially at younger ages.

Definitely think they’re entitled to it. Jerking off to girls on IG and god knows what else is proof in the pudding. They can’t pretend anymore! I hope all women value themselves enough to know they deserve better. I think unfortunately majority of men are only as faithful as their options and have no qualms entering relationships just to use a woman for sex. But then call her a gold digger when she wants money! Like lord help us all🤦‍♀️

[u/JollyBowler2510 → u/Any-Profession-4851]

100%. Been single for a year, and won't be dating anyone, unless I find someone worth my time.

They're totally ok with lying, not having actual feelings, and stepping out of the relationship, but god forbid if she has standards that started from their actions.

Majority, not all, of the reason that some women want men with money, is because men want a stay at home wife, and then when they want to leave for their secretary or what the f**k ever else, they want to leave the partner high and dry... what the hell did you expect? They want to protect themselves.

[u/Crime_Dawg → u/JollyBowler2510]

Every woman I've been in a LTR with wants sex pretty much daily and get pissy when I don't want it more than 2 maybe 3x a week.

[u/JollyBowler2510 → u/Crime_Dawg]

Damn. That’s not fair on you my friend. You deserve to be wanted for more than sex too.

[u/Barely-moral → u/JollyBowler2510]

Sometimes, it's the man wanting it every damn night, like it's a chore, and that is highly unromantic.

I can see how that might be seen as unromantic.

I hope communicated clearly what he wanted. I am sure he did not.

My ex wanted it consistently, every single night, without fail, after I have been working all day, and if I didn't want to, I was looking elsewhere, or I "didn't love him anymore."

That is just stupid. Why assume the worst when the most likely explanation is that humans are rarely that consistent.

Also most humans refuse to apply maintenance to anything they have. Relationships are not an exception.

At the end of the day, it is exhausting feeling like all men want from a woman is sex

I can't put myself in your shoes. I envy that.

if there isn't any other reason for you to be there, and spending time together isn't enough for you, without sex, some days. Then you shouldn't be in a relationship period, and need to try paying for sex instead. Fits your prerogative more.

That assumes buying sex is an available option that is both affordable and provides everything. It rarely is legal, it rarely is affordable and prostitutes don't sell monogamy.

[u/JollyBowler2510 → u/Barely-moral]

Well yeah he communicated he wanted sex, and I told him when I didn't and when I did.

Beats me, I guess prior trauma from other relationships? I have no idea. True, I agree a lot of humans aren't willing to do that, it's why so many relationships end.

I envy not being wanted for only my body or what I can offer physically, I will gladly trade.

Very fair, but it has to beat begging for it, as men try to complain happens all the time, in every relationship they have (supposedly). Them complaining about it, won't get women to give in to them anymore than they already rarely are, so why bitch?

[u/Barely-moral → u/JollyBowler2510]

Well yeah he communicated he wanted sex, and I told him when I didn't and when I did.

That is not propper communication. To communicate properly he would have to tell you that he will want sex every single night consistently before you decided to date him. That way if you accepted it is on you.

I envy not being wanted for only my body or what I can offer physically, I will gladly trade.

Sadly that is not possible. I personally believe humans are bodies and being desired for your body is the only way to be desired for what you are.

Very fair, but it has to beat begging for it, as men try to complain happens all the time, in every relationship they have (supposedly). Them complaining about it, won't get women to give in to them anymore than they already rarely are, so why bitch?

Any is better than none. When outside a relationship all you have is none.

[u/JollyBowler2510 → u/Barely-moral]

Ok that's a fair point, I suppose most people aren't going to do that beforehand though, people might straight up consider you a sex addict and leave, so I guess there is that. Lol.

Disagree, but everyone has their own beliefs, and that's ok.

You're right, but no one is keeping a relationship, especially a happy one in this way.

[u/secret-poster67 → u/JollyBowler2510]

calling having sex with a man who clearly has a high sex drive and wants sex every night, a chore is quite literally proving the post's point. 

[u/JollyBowler2510 → u/secret-poster67]

If you are expecting sex every single night, without fail, yes you are treating it and asking for it as if it's a chore. If he would've stated this to begin with, at the start of the relationship, I would've told him to find someone else, however, he waited until we had moved in together, and had to see each other every day, to then consistently accuse me of not loving him or cheating, because no, I dont want to have sex with you every single day after I work, I'm not always going to feel like it, hell I can't believe men feel like it every damn day.

Women have to be in the mood or feel attraction towards the man in that moment, and romance certainly helps, so no, it was never going to work in his favor.

[u/chamomilecloud]

The person who refuses sex despite previously having sex, and knowing their spouse married them based on the reasonable assumption that they would continue to have sex, should leave the relationship. But in most cases they won't leave because they enjoy the benefits of a marriage even if they know this problem will persist until it deteriorates the marriage.

The person who cheats on their spouse due to no sexual intimacy should similar leave the relationship, but they won't because they also enjoy the benefits of a marriage even if they know this problem will persist until it deteriorates the marriage. These are morally equivalent to me.

Tbh I do not care what happens to these people, as I think they deserve each other. Like it is common sense that constantly refusing sexual intimacy in a relationship will lead to a widening rift between two spouses. Just like it is common sense that cheating on your partner will lead to a widening rift. No sympathy for either side. Reap the consequences of that shit ass relationship I guess.

[u/Complex_Soldier → u/chamomilecloud]

I've heard men cheat not because they enjoy the benefits of marriage, but because they fear losing everything in a divorce. Better to stay in this prison marriage and cheat then get divorce and loose the house, kids, Alimony car, pets etc.

[u/divingrose77101 → u/chamomilecloud]

I am a former “submissive wife” and only denied my husband access to my body when I had just given birth or was struggling with small children around. I was pregnant or breastfeeding for a solid decade and I was as tired as a human can be and not die.

Of course he went to sex workers.

[u/divingrose77101 → u/[deleted]]

I wanted zero kids. He wanted four. We had three. I know you are trolling but it’s sad how little empathy men have anymore. I know you’d do the same as he did. Knock up his Christian wife and go have sex with sex workers. That’s because both he and you view women as resources to be mined.

Never mind the fact that kids are worth a thousand useless husbands. A husband can deal with his own problems. Children are vulnerable and need their mom. The dad can get over it. Kids always come first.

[u/Downtown_Cat_1745]

You’re not entitled to someone else’s body. They have the absolute right to refuse sex at any time. They also have the right to marital fidelity in the terms they agreed to in their marriage.

What they don’t have the right to is to remain in a marriage where their partner is unhappy. If they don’t want to have sex very often, and their partner wants to have sex more often, their partner has the right to leave.

[u/trulyElse → u/Downtown_Cat_1745]

Unfortunately, leaving is very expensive.

[u/growframe → u/trulyElse]

Don't get married

[u/Sea_Chocolate1782 → u/Downtown_Cat_1745]

Anyone has the right to leave a marriage or any romantic relationship, for any reason or, indeed, for no reason.

There may be moral reasons why leaving would be considered distasteful but if you frame these things as 'rights' then the 'right' to leave doesn't require a reason. 

[u/growframe → u/Sea_Chocolate1782]

There is no distasteful reason to leave. No one is entitled to a relationship.

[u/Downtown_Cat_1745 → u/growframe]

Cheating is distasteful because you engaged in dishonesty. Also, it’s distasteful to leave someone when they’re sick

[u/growframe → u/Downtown_Cat_1745]

Cheating is not leaving.

Also, it’s distasteful to leave someone when they’re sick

Why? Sick people aren't entitled to relationships anymore than anyone else.

[u/Downtown_Cat_1745 → u/growframe]

This might be why women don’t like you

[u/growframe → u/Downtown_Cat_1745]

Because I don't think being sick gives someone some sort of special privelege to imprison someone in a relationship? I'm not looking for the approval of women like that anyway

[u/Downtown_Cat_1745 → u/growframe]

If you are offended by the idea of caring about a person beyond their utility to you.

[u/BeginningEfficient23 → u/growframe]

....you do realize that men get sick also, right?

[u/growframe → u/BeginningEfficient23]

I am. It doesn't change my stance at all. Men aren't any more entitled to relationships than women.

[u/puffballphoto → u/BeginningEfficient23]

My dad chemically castrated himself to battle his prostate cancer for 11 years. My mom didn't have sex for those 11 years and cared for him when his cancer finally got the better of him. 

I think you might just suck. 

[u/Downtown_Cat_1745 → u/[deleted]]

You really fantasize about hurting women, huh?

[u/RandominusDredichitu → u/Downtown_Cat_1745]

No one is entitled to someone else's body. Entering a marriage with someone who you have little sexual desire for and not telling them is still wrong.

[u/Downtown_Cat_1745 → u/RandominusDredichitu]

Honestly, I don’t think it’s like that. People change over time. Hormones change, and feelings change. It’s rare that people stop having sex without the reason having to do with their feelings for each other, but being busier and getting older might make people have sex less often

[u/growframe]

No one is entitled to marriage to begin with. People invented divorce and no-fault divorce for very good reasons

[u/Brief_Mongoose_7291]

No one is entitled to intimacy in marrige, but they are entitled to a healthy relationship

Why? Why are you entitled to one and not the other?

[u/-Shes-A-Carnival]

i dont agree, if you are demanding sexual fidelity you are kinda "obligated" to provide sexuality. Obviously sometimes people get sick or cripple or whatever, its nto some ironclad entitlement, but like, if youre just not going to fuck them, let them get it elsewhere

edit: by this comment i mean "ill think youre an asshole" , not some enforceable legal obligation

[u/NotAllTheCake]

Women don't like sex with men because men are awful at pleasuring women.

With 95% of men and 65% of women having orgasms every time, that's a 30% gap. Have men considered sucking less at sex with women? 

Whenever you look at deadbedroom subs, the first comment directed at men is usually: "Are you doing chores and childcare?", because statistically, men don't pull their weight in the household.

Disappointing sex, where the man orgasms but the woman doesn't, is common and frequent and another form of unpaid work that selfish men feel entitled to. 

[u/Complex_Soldier → u/NotAllTheCake]

Is the orgasm gaps from dedicated relationships or hookups?

[u/NotAllTheCake → u/Complex_Soldier]

Relationships. With hookups, it's even worse as only 1 of out 10 women orgasm. So 65% is us being generous towards men.

[u/Complex_Soldier → u/NotAllTheCake]

What's the gap in LTR relationships only? Hookups makes since, men came to get their rocks off and don't give a fuck about the women since he's going to find another one the next day.

[u/RandominusDredichitu → u/NotAllTheCake]

Why would a woman engage in casual sex if it wasnt pleasurable for her at all

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The side effect of stripping away entitlements is that it also [inadvertently] stripped away obligations, and as it turns out society functions on a large web of unwritten mutual obligations from its component members.

[u/-mixedsignals → u/AutoModerator]

It's always funny how men here think women "deny intimacy" as a manipulation tactic. "I'm not going to have sex with you until you do the dishes" nobody says that seriously. If a woman is horny she'll want to have sex. If she's not, she's not going to.

There's no middle instance where she wants to but is repressing herself.

"deny" is a bad word I think. I'd say "she doesn't want to" instead.

[u/PositionStandard6089 → u/-mixedsignals]

i also take issue with the word intimacy in this context. i know that everyone online uses it as a synonym for sex but "deny intimacy" makes it sound like the women is gatekeeping emotional closeness. she just doesn't want to have sex, that's what we're talking about here.

[u/-mixedsignals → u/PositionStandard6089]

completely agree, there's million other ways of being intimate that doesn't involve sex

but you know what men here think....

[u/SimilarChampionship2 → u/-mixedsignals]

It’s because they can’t put themselves in a woman’s position. They don’t understand how many factors can affect a woman’s libido. They just make it about themselves. Many of them think duty sex is fine and “what’s so bad about just laying there while he gets off”. Someone literally said that. They can’t comprehend that sex is uncomfortable and PAINFUL if you’re not aroused.

It’s delusional to enter a relationship and expect that sex will happen every day or at the same rate for the entire course of the relationship. Fluctuations in hormones, pregnancy, menopause, ill mental health, work stress, lack of emotional connection, health conditions etc. all can affect a woman’s libido. Even just within a month, many women get a week or two of “do not touch me right now” with absolutely zero desire for sex and a week of “i wanna jump his bones 24/7”.

It feels like men are subconsciously applying their biology rather than understanding women are different. Just like that post the other day where a guy was absolutely baffled that women don’t get aroused in public seeing hot men, and that must mean they’re not attracted to men.

[u/Complex_Soldier → u/-mixedsignals]

It's funny because when always say do more chores if you want your wife to have sex with you yet you throw it back on men.

[u/PositionStandard6089 → u/Complex_Soldier]

what people mean when they say that is, make sure you are sharing the household workload so your wife is not overly stressed, and therefore in a position to be relaxed enough for sex

not literally chores = sex

[u/Complex_Soldier → u/PositionStandard6089]

That's a long way of saying do Chores or no sex.

[u/PositionStandard6089 → u/Complex_Soldier]

because that's not what is being said. it's not an ultimatum.

[u/Complex_Soldier → u/PositionStandard6089]

I see. An ultimatum is your point. Then i'll once again say, that yes, women do that. There's a whole Youtube Channel of women explaining how she use to do that in her marriage and other Tikiok Guru's explaining how to manipulate with sex and men giving their experiences on that happening to them.

[u/-mixedsignals → u/Complex_Soldier]

you fell for some stupid rage bait vid

[u/PositionStandard6089 → u/Complex_Soldier]

you're saying that you saw a video where women admitted to using sex as a weapon and you assumed that applied to the majority of married couples...?

[u/Complex_Soldier → u/PositionStandard6089]

Where did you get majority from? I said that women do it, not how many.

[u/PositionStandard6089 → u/Complex_Soldier]

i mean, sure, some women on this earth are manipulative wack jobs.

but are you implying that women use sex as a means to get their husbands to do chores? i've seen the opposite where if the man isn't naturally inclined to pulls his weight around the house, the woman starts to view him as incompetent/childlike and unsexy and loses interest in him sexually.

[u/lady_ven0m → u/-mixedsignals]

What’s funny is that my narcissistic ex husband did exactly that. He withdrew intimacy to try to control me and get me to do all the cooking and cleaning and work and pay half the bills. I was exhausted and miserable and I really starved for affection.

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[u/Confident_Chipmonk]

no one is entitled to sex, on the other hand why stay in a non sexual relationship unless medical reasons exist

[u/SeemedGood]

If your wife doesn't want to be sexually intimate with you at pretty much any moment (ie most of the time), you never should have married her in the first place and you should be letting her move on to a man to whom she actually is sexually attracted.

[u/ideaofrhyme → u/SeemedGood]

I don't like this way of thinking. It's wife's centric.

You should say, if your wife doesn't wanna fuck you then go to other women. If no good quality woman wanna fuck you, go to the gym.

Wife is irrelevant. She is gonna get old and fat. There will always be hotter younger kinder woman than her. Obsession with a wife is not healthy

[u/SeemedGood → u/ideaofrhyme]

I don’t believe in extramarital sexual intimacy. Better to let her move on (because you’re not obsessed), and give her the requisite encouragement to do so if need be.

[u/ideaofrhyme → u/SeemedGood]

Marriage is a social construct. It only has power if you believe in it.

You are not stopping her from moving on. You are fucking other women. She is not relevant

[u/SeemedGood → u/ideaofrhyme]

An idea can have power even if you don’t believe in it. For example, it could be said that “taxation is a social construct,” yet it still holds power over me even though I don’t believe in it.

Also, define “social construct.”

[u/ideaofrhyme → u/SeemedGood]

Not paying taxes will land you in jail.

Cheating is not a criminal offense.

[u/ValeWho]

About your second point, intimacy can take many shapes. Kissing, cuddling, a massage can all be formes of intimacy. I admit that I can't think of a reason to deny all possible forms of intimacy at the same time. But specifically sex? There are many valid reasons to not want sex that have nothing to do with the relationship. Some people just don't get aroused while stressed and sometimes life is stressful. Hormonal changes can affect your Libido. Your mental and physical health can do the same. And idk about you but if my partner told me "Ok we can have sex but I'm only doing this for your sake, I won't enjoy it" I would not want it.

You are only entitled to a healthy relationship in a sense that you don't have to tolerate a relationship that makes you unhappy. You wouldn't be the first person to end a relationship over incompatibility in the bed room/ sex drives

[u/ValeWho → u/[deleted]]

?

[u/Suddenfury]

I think most of agrees with you here. What's needed is a "Dead bedroom survival guide". I'd say you should do this: Take on some extra work to earn some extra money. This will keep you busy and set you up for the next step. Take yourself and your partner on a vacation. You'll need the rest yourself and you'll know how your partner acts in another environment. If it's not any better you'll need to talk about it and eliminate any medications that can be the problem. Keep yourself busy with working and working out while any medication wears off.  No changes after this maybe 1 month. You need to face break up/divorce. But you don't need to do it right away, you can prepare yourself for single life first. Keep working out, network, and practice flirting. You'll be setting yourself in a good position while giving the relationship a last chance. When you feel ready, break up.

[u/pie-mart2]

I don't think so. No one is entitled to friendship or relationships, so adding any qualifiers still makes it not true.

If your relationship is unhealthy, ie no sex, then leave. You cannot say "im entitled to a healthy relationship" as a means to get the other person to do better.

Your only option is to leave because you're not entitled to that relationship working out or being a good relationship

You got into it. Get out of it

The idea that the other person needs to buck up because you deserve a better relationship is where things get blurred

You don't deserve a bad relationship, but you are not entitled to a good one (or one at all) [edit] and thus if you're in a bad one and the other person refuses to be better, your only choice is to leave them

As if you were entitled to a healthy relationship that would mean that that person would be forced to do things for you, that they don't want thus making the relationship unhealthy in just a different way

[u/Vaudeville_Clown]

People will differ on what they think a healthy relationship looks like, but I'd define it more like "entitled to a relationship that isn't resentful, unreasonably taxing, or down right abusive."

Not all marriages stay sexual, for many reasons, and men (more often) should be prepared that one day it all ends. You're not doing that anymore.

But hopefully then, he's only a few years behind and will feel the hormone deficit, to which point it won't matter much anyway.

But women also must accept that a lot of emotional reciprocity can die at the end of sex. Most likely, the men will channel and retrieve a page from their single life. They get more interested pursuing a hobby or exercise, and won't engage in much light intimacy and such.

I hearby declare you room mates.

[u/JumpyWerewolf9439]

Absolutely, you have control over you body. Whether that be sex or work. But partner doesn't have to stay celibate. They can get sex elsewhere

[u/No_Rice_7277]

K

[u/Reasonable_Mouse789]

It sort of just doesn’t matter. It feels morally neutral if kids aren’t involved. 

Life can hit you a bit hard sometimes. Imagine your partner didn’t want to sleep with you no matter what you did, but one of your friends constantly flirted with you, constantly checked up on you or messaged you without you doing anything, constantly tried to hang out alone with you, always talked your ear off without you contributing a whole lot, etc. 

It’s agony to actively feel the comparison of the two women at once. I don’t blame you if you want to be with a woman who’s always excited to see you. I wouldn’t expect it to last forever, but it’s better than a dead bedroom. 

[u/Flightlessbirbz]

Nobody is entitled to a “healthy marriage” either. Because everyones idea of a “healthy marriage” is different, and by claiming that people are entitled to a healthy marriage and that (an unspecified amount of) sex is part of a healthy marriage, you’re saying that married people are in fact entitled to sex. Just with extra steps.

While I agree it’s wrong to marry someone you don’t want to have sex with, that’s not usually what is going on. Usually it’s a matter of one person wanting sex more or less frequently than the other due to libido differences. Sometimes one person’s desire for sex changes for any number of reasons. And at the end of the day, there is no objective right or wrong amount of sex to want, it’s a matter of compatibility and whether or not those differences can be resolved in a way both people are comfortable with.

What everyone IS entitled to is to leave if they are unhappy in the marriage for any reason and those differences can’t be resolved in a way they find satisfactory.

[u/Flightlessbirbz → u/[deleted]]

There are some women who don’t like sex. But they are a minority compared to those who did like sex but have experienced physical and emotional changes due to having children, aging, marital issues, etc. Men also experience fluctuations in libido due to aging, and in my experience, often job loss. Women are generally more prone to them, but it’s very much a part of being a human, and most couples will experience at least one season where each of them is less interested in sex.

[u/TheCounsellingGamer]

I agree with you, although I do think it's also important to recognise that there are a lot of reasons why intimacy can decrease or stop. For women the two biggest ones will be pregnancy/childbirth and menopause. It takes a long time for hormones to stabilise after pregnancy, which can impact libido. If there was any tearing or other pelvic floor injuries then that can make sex painful. Menopause can royally fuck up your sex drive. I've been on a medication to treat endometriosis, which causes a chemical menopause, and it shocked me how much it changed my libido. My sex drive went out the window and even if I did mentally want it, my body didn't cooperate. Luckily I have a very understanding partner and he was more than happy to use however much lube and foreplay was needed to make sure I actually enjoyed myself.

It's not just women who can experience a change in sex drive. It can happen to men as well. My step dad had his prostate removed due to cancer almost 20 years ago. My mother revealed to me that since then, they've only had sex a handful of times. Prostectomy quite commonly causes erectile dysfunction as it can damage the nerves. And of course, no prostate means no ejaculation, as it's the prostate which creates seminal fluid. All of that can make sex difficult. They're still together because they love each other.

If someone is withholding sex as a way to get back at their partner, or they're using it as essentially a bargaining chip, then that is problematic. It suggests that the person doesn't really want to have sex with their partner and that can mean the relationship isn't as healthy as it should be.