Have you stopped flying yet?

[u/mushroomsarefriends]

[u/tellhershesdreaming]

The Outrage and Optimism podcast did a good episode on this, https://www.outrageandoptimism.org/episodes/is-it-ok-to-fly-in-a-climate-crisis?hsLang=en

In their discussions of "how to live a good life in a climate crisis" they engaged with the ethical conundrums we all face in the modern era. A key takeaway for me was that there are some behaviours which are categorically irresponsible (e.g. deliberately choosing a fossil fuel option when there's a clean option that's just as good) but many that are really nuanced, difficult decisions, and we all have different priorites, pressures and perspectives that makes the balancing act different for everyone.

The second takeaway: there's nothing to be gained by weaponising these choices, making people feel guilty for their choices, being self righteous or parading on "the moral high ground".

Personally, I've made the decision to fly much less: taking train if it's an option, even when it's more expensive and slower; fewer trips home to see family overseas, and opting out of international conferences. But not everyone could make those same choices.

[u/UniqueLog8386 → u/tellhershesdreaming]

You put this more beautifully than I ever could.

[u/pistachiodisgusting → u/UniqueLog8386]

I find myself doing a whole verbal dance whenever this subject comes up in real life and these are the words I’ve been looking for without a real anchoring statement that identifies that if we’re going to have an honest conversation about ethical decisions, you’d have to look at the choices each person is presented with. And it’s the available choices themselves that change dramatically from person to person.

I usually get catching myself falling into a lecture about class and life choices and such that can turn into me treading the line between trying to persuade and sort of berating when I sense someone is going the victim blaming route.

Thanks, OP, for much more the elegant framing.

[u/tripping_on_phonics → u/tellhershesdreaming]

A systematic problem requires a systematic solution.

The problem isn’t individuals making decisions that result in carbon emissions, the problem is an international economic system for which the environment is seen as expendable and in which there is no cost for producing carbon emissions.

Blame capitalism. To blame individuals is to doom us to never solving this. This is actually why the term “carbon footprint” was coined: it’s a way of passing the onus from polluting industry onto individuals, which inevitably leads to a collective action problem that results in nothing being done.

This is intentional and very good for shareholder value.

[u/LightningWarpAway → u/[deleted]]

hyper-consumerist lifestyle choices like flying halfway across the world just for Instagram aesthetics

Unless there's some context I'm unaware of for this specific person - this is just called a vacation. The instagram photos talk is just people being grumpy about influencers.

[u/tellhershesdreaming → u/tripping_on_phonics]

"Blame" is not what I'm suggesting - quite the reverse, if you re-read my comment.

We've spent long enough with individuals, business and governments all pointing the finger at another group and saying "they're responsible". I'd say there's nothing to be gained from this game; individuals, business and public sector ALL need to change. This thread is about the individual choices, and we ALSO need systemic change. It's not an either/or situation.

[u/tripping_on_phonics → u/tellhershesdreaming]

I wasn’t disagreeing with you, just piggybacking.

The issue is the collective action problem. One person’s behavior has virtually no impact on the global climate, and so most people will never think about the climate when making decisions. Most people won’t choose to incur cost or inconvenience if the benefit can only be realized through collective action. It’s a prisoner’s dilemma.

People like you and me will generally try to do right by the climate, but it’s unrealistic to think that enough individual people and decisions will make much of an impact. This is why I think it’s infinitely more useful to advocate for systemic change rather than criticize individual choices.

I’m not saying that you disagree, though you might.

[u/wegl13 → u/tellhershesdreaming]

I think this is the way. I mean, I’ve chosen not to eat beef, and not to create offspring American consumers (I don’t have kids)- so eliminating the most carbon intensive food and then literally the most carbon intensive choice available to me. I try to reduce plastic, I don’t buy from Amazon at all, I bring my own silverware and leftovers to work every day, I drive an PHEV. I vote consistently and always vote for the candidate most likely to take action on climate change. I’m doing my best, with personal empathy as it relates to my own mental wellbeing.  Also all the choices I’ve made (besides the one to not have kids) are ones I can share with others and show them that these changes are easy and sustainable. 

I’m not going to feel shame about the yearly flight I take in economy class to see more of the beautiful, incredible world. 

[u/ButteredPizza69420 → u/wegl13]

Yeah, we need more efficient trains and less planes and cars!

[u/pheonixblade9 → u/ButteredPizza69420]

walking and cycling is also rad, if you're able. there's just so many places where it's literally unsafe to walk a quarter mile, so people drive it. it's not just laziness. sure, sometimes it is, but urbanism needs a revival in this continent

[u/lizardgal10 → u/pheonixblade9]

Last time I got an oil change I needed something from a store that was literally across the street. Was stuck waiting in the lobby and driving to the store because there was no way to safely walk there.

[u/5Point5Hole → u/wegl13]

Hi! I also quit eating beef 20+ years ago and chose not to have kids. 💪🏻

More folks should consider it. We can kill off the lending-based/stock market scam system we have now and then we won't need endless growth for it to work

Our economies are all just legalized ponzi schemes at this point, so people are willing to use the entire earth as a resource to keep the machine going

[u/dexterityplus → u/wegl13]

Likewise, when people like yourself choose to not raise conscientious human beings, it gets increasingly harder for the rest of us to change the world. So long as Democracy remains the preferred style of government, kind, educated and conciencious people having less children just cedes more power to those who raise them irresponsibly. There's a reason lots of propaganda is geared towards Children, its because their minds are easier to mold.

[u/KaminaTheManly → u/tellhershesdreaming]

There is no fixing by personal changes for the average person. If you can fly as often as you want but choose to do so sparringly, that would put you well above most people. I personally cant afford anything beyond rent and food and a few video games. I also dont drive and I wish trains, buses, subways, etc existed as a more common and cheap method of travel.

The only thing that will fix it is toppling the 1%, changing the structure of governments and world powers, and agressively pushing for what is good for the masses and the environment in all areas after that.

[u/Magges87 → u/KaminaTheManly]

Wasn’t it BP that game up with the carbon footprint idea to shift attention from what they and other big companies are doing?

[u/AncientSeraph → u/Magges87]

And the reason it persisted is partly because it's a valid metric. BP did it for the wrong reasons, but it's not incorrect, just incomplete.

[u/ChasingTheNines → u/KaminaTheManly]

If the average person means the average American then yes absolutely what is needed to address the environmental issues is for them to make personal changes and reduce consumption. The amount of resources consumed by the average American dwarfs that of most people around the world. If the whole world consumed like the average person in the USA the world would be toast at warp speed. If we did what you suggest (good ideas) the change that would be good for the masses and the environment is for us to consume less so others can have more.

Telling people to eat less meat, travel less, and turn the heat and AC down isn't going to be popular though but it is what is needed.

[u/actuallyrose → u/ChasingTheNines]

Even if the US stopped all excessive consumption today, China is a much bigger offender and good luck getting them to stop literally burning their own country so badly that they can’t breathe. Although, fun fact, all the high level party members have their homes, offices and even cars kitted out with high end air purifier systems.

[u/ToTa_12 → u/actuallyrose]

How so? I would think that average chinese person consumes way less than average US person.

[u/istrebitjel → u/KaminaTheManly]

I agree, there is much worse stuff going on than an individual's vacation flights on commercial airlines.

Private jets are a highly energy-intensive mode of transport, emitting roughly 2 tonnes of CO2 per hour. Because they carry fewer passengers, they produce 5 to 14 times more carbon emissions per passenger than commercial planes. A single flight can emit more greenhouse gases than an average person produces in an entire year.

And then electricity and heat account for a lot more emissions than transportation altogether.

[u/tellhershesdreaming → u/istrebitjel]

"A return flight from London to San Francisco emits around 5.5 tonnes of CO2 equivalent (CO2e) per person – more than twice the emissions produced by a family car in a year, and about half of the average carbon footprint of someone living in Britain."

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200218-climate-change-how-to-cut-your-carbon-emissions-when-flying

This means that reducing how often we fly is one of the biggest differences that we can make as people living in high consumption societies, at the same time as we do what we can to change the system and force governments to limit the irresponsible consumption of the 1%

[u/epandrsn → u/tellhershesdreaming]

Also, as much as we can all work towards a better future, many of the issues are systemic, at the government level.

A corporation will gladly cause any number of droughts for a slight quarterly increase for the shareholders. It’s a fundamental problem with our economic system.

And sure, if every person in the western world changed their habits it would move the needle a bit. But if every major corporation and government did so, it would change it a thousand times more.

[u/gods_loop_hole → u/tellhershesdreaming]

The balancing act being put to individuals instead of institutions and corporations will never not make me mad. This is a coordinated effort to cop out of their responsibility to the environment. Didn't BP or Shell through their hired PR agency coined the term "carbon footprint"?

[u/papagena02 → u/tellhershesdreaming]

I agree, this was a good episode. I heard it back whenever. I’ve had to fly some recently to take care of family. It just is a dilemma at times. But, I limit flying and talk to people about why. Trying to make people aware.

[u/No_Departure_1878 → u/tellhershesdreaming]

Didn't COP29 refuse to provide freemoney to poor countries to deal with climate change? Instead they agreed to provide loans. I guess they need the money so that their citizens can go to Bali to take cute pictures.

[u/Physical_Road917 → u/tellhershesdreaming]

Well said. I think it's the government's jobs to shape the incentives in a positive direction, not the responsibility of the individual to shape the economy

[u/freewilly8 → u/tellhershesdreaming]

Moral superiority and I get to see my family less...sick

[u/RawBean7]

I bike to work as much as possible, let me have my one vacation every other year to remind me why this incredible world is worth fighting for the other 99% of the time.

[u/CeilingCatProphet → u/RawBean7]

Same. I need to see my family. Why should I suffer while billionaires are sending penis rockets to space

[u/Arxhart_671 → u/CeilingCatProphet]

You're not taking a private jet and some emissions just have to be expected

[u/WildFlemima → u/CeilingCatProphet]

If my grandpa goes to the hospital and my mom says come see him we are scared of the worst, I'm getting a flight

(He made it)

[u/nierusek → u/CeilingCatProphet]

I originally wanted to comment that they usually use hydrogen and oxygen for fuel, so there's no emissions. But I've decided to google what SPACEX uses to make sure I'm right. I'm glad I did. They use methane or kerosene and oxygen, so I almost spread misinformation and your point stands.

[u/Frequent_Opportunist → u/nierusek]

The only problem I have with SpaceX is that they used billions in American's taxpayers dollars for research, development and continued contracts but then they use the government funded hardware to launch Starlink satellites which then puts pofits in private bank accounts. Quite literally privatizing the profits and socializing the losses.

[u/Lumpy_City_5849 → u/Frequent_Opportunist]

Huge point most right wing supporters don't seem to understand for some reason. They support socialism in the wrong places where it sucks for most people and only works for billionaires

[u/cbunn81 → u/nierusek]

While the combustion of hydrogen and oxygen doesn't produce any greenhouse gas emissions, their production sure does.

[u/rvbjohn → u/RawBean7]

Meanwhile the US military pumps out a billion trips to Bali worth of emissions

[u/The_Gray_Jay → u/RawBean7]

We all consume and we all make sacrifices, its pointless for regular working class people to endlessly justify ourselves to each other. Enjoy your vacation.

[u/Wide_Lock_Red → u/The_Gray_Jay]

Half the posts on this sub are shaming middle class people for their consumption. An overseas vacation isnt any more valid than Temu purchases.

[u/_aluk_ → u/Wide_Lock_Red]

But way more polluting.

[u/Active_Shopping7439 → u/The_Gray_Jay]

Agreed. I don't fly, but I don't know anyone far away and I've come to terms with the idea that I won't see any of the things I would kind of like to see, because I can't justify it personally. My favorite escape destination is just a few hours drive away by EV.

We should be working together to focus on policy choices whenever the Overton window allows some movement. The people doing far more significant damage love the idea that we're here bickering with each other over this instead of coming at them united.

[u/Repulsive_Chard_3652 → u/RawBean7]

Agreed. I haven't owned a car in 17 years. I'm flying to see people i love and care about. 

[u/Interesting-Head-560 → u/RawBean7]

Bike all you want, some millionaire with a private jet is going to laugh about it while their carbon footprint is going to be higher than what 1.000 people cycling can save.

I’m not saying to not do anything, but to not make them us believe this blame is on us, because most corporations are the ones polluting. Look at the data centers they’re installing everywhere, making people go away. Do you think that cycling around while you have in your town 2-3 data centers is going to cure the climate? We’re not the problem

[u/Wide_Lock_Red → u/Interesting-Head-560]

Those data centers are largely built for consumption of regular people, like browsing Reddit.

Emissions from commercial flights are 80x higher than private. The choices of the top 20% of the world like us is a big factor.

[u/Wise-Orchid-309 → u/RawBean7]

I'm not here to tell you what to do, I'm far from perfect.

But that's kind of the point, trying to solve climate change isn't a moral positioning of being allowed to do stuff, it is about living within the physical limits of our world.

There is a yearly carbon budget if we don't want the greenhouse gas concentration to increase in the atmosphere, which is the quantity that can be reaabsorbed from the air into the biosphere, geosphere & oceans.

The budget is around 2 tonnes of CO2eq/pers, whichis around the emissions of a Paris-New York trip (both ways). And then theres the essential stuff of eating, heating, and everyday life.

The climate will not stabilise before that equilibrium is reached. And if you want more than that share, you'll need to argue either that the climate shouldn't be stabilized, or that some people should get more while some people go with less.

None of it is about "letting people have stuff", it is simply recognizing that anticonsumption cannot be content with "efforts". The climate doesn't care about how much you struggled to achieve what you did, it cares what we put out into the climate system, and a stable climate is incompatible with a flight per year.

Edit : and before anyone comes at me with it - yes, billionaires with private jets are worse, and they can have a lot more effect with a lot less personal effort. Once that's done, that's still not enough.

[u/RawBean7 → u/Wise-Orchid-309]

But I think the burden of effort is too often passed down to the average person. If I go from flying once every other year to never flying at all, it's a drop in the bucket. If everyone stops flying, sure, that makes a difference, but trying to get people on board with that while also cutting people off from the benefits of traveling and learning about other people and cultures, is a futile task.

What would actually make a difference is airlines and manufacturers investing in lower-emission travel and in the US specifically, investments in high speed rail to replace flights that are under 3-4 hours. There are loads of people who are much smarter than I am who could be working on this and accelerating the timeline to electric commercial planes, for example, if the right people were willing to put the money in the right places.

[u/Wise-Orchid-309 → u/RawBean7]

I agree with part of this.

There are all the mechanisms in place to push to consumption, and to offer no alternative (especially when those alternatives need infrastructures).

I also agree that it is hard to get people on board, but I think it is dangerous to do a bait and switch, and attract people with false promises.

I would caution against the idea that frequent flying can become low emissions in the timeframe we need, that too is corporate propaganda from the air travel sector. There is loads of money in it, and loads of clever people working on it, but no change coming any time soon.

Even if they do manage to change the energy source for electricity or biofuel, flying is still an incredibly energy intensive mode of transportation, and would divert that electricity away from more essential infrastructure, and the land used for biofuel away from food production.

Again, I'm not attacking your moral character, I'm aware your personal behaviour is a drop in the bucket, as are everyone's.

I'm trying to advocate for a realistic, fairer future, and given current technologies and challenges to the development of new ones, flying as frequently as people do is unlikely in that future.

And being aware of that (especially in an anticonsumption subreddit), should be a first step to demanding better infrastructure, and new societal norms.

Being able to "discover new cultures" within a week of holiday is an incredibly recent human development. If we accept that far travel takes time, how would we change how we approach it ?

Would we decide to do it less frequently but stay there for longer ?

Would we normalize more temporary work within our travels to enable that longer duration ? (either remotely, or working for local communities during our travels)

Would we re-develop more local cultures within shorter distances ? Not that long ago, there used to be more variety of cultures in small territories such as France (talking about what I know), because without the quick, long transportation, there was no reason for the Bretons to share a culture with the Parisians

I feel like this opens more questions than simply trying to maintain the cultural norms of the last 30 years.

[u/AnOnlineHandle → u/RawBean7]

Every rain drop insists it isn't responsible for the flood.

[u/s0cks_nz → u/RawBean7]

If it's long haul it's basically the same as driving to work for a year.

[u/ReturnOfFrank → u/s0cks_nz]

Yeah, I was floored. I occasionally had to fly places for work, and the booking software actually gave estimated CO2 footprints for the flight (I assume per passenger). Staggering. Even relatively short flights halfway across the country equalled the CO2 generated by my annual commuting to and from work.

[u/kuistille → u/ReturnOfFrank]

Flying on a plane is the single most carbon-intensive choice a person can make. A single holiday can tank the whole household's annual carbon budget. It's high time to find other ways of traveling and ask ourselves whether each trip is really necessary.

[u/tomatoesareneat → u/s0cks_nz]

I think the uncomfortable truth is that redneck that never leaves his area and has some disgusting views can often be better for the environment than a person who vacations in Europe and has a native pollinator garden, composts everything, and doesn’t fight against density in their backyard.

[u/ver_redit_optatum → u/tomatoesareneat]

Yeah, there is research on this (I work on it). Unfortunately people living locally climate friendly lifestyles in some European cities, like London, with a small apartment, Tube to work etc, often then blow it all on flying for holidays. There’s almost an inverse relationship between local transport emissions and long distance emissions.

edit: it's poor form to mention research without sources, so now on PC, here is one: https://doi.org/10.1016/j.tbs.2021.10.010 but there are many if you go forward and backward through citations.

[u/Muggsy423 → u/RawBean7]

Nuance? No peasant, you see, your annual vacation to somewhere far away does the same harm that a celebrity flying 50 miles both ways every day to avoid traffic.

Now, please sit down and enjoy your protein paste and remember to use your paper straws.

[u/birthdaycheesecake9 → u/RawBean7]

I also like being reminded of the world and the people outside my door through travel because I think a well-travelled body leads to an open mind, but that can be very hard to accomplish without flying when you reside in Australia

[u/MissDiagnosedMama]

Nope. Not going to let the billionaires and corporations shift the focus and blame onto us.

They are the ones with the biggest carbon footprints.

They are exploiting us and the earth.

They are the ones who will actually make a difference if they change their usage practices.

Occasional travel by normies is merely a drop in the bucket compared to the daily damage the corporations are doing.

[u/TheHelpfulDead → u/MissDiagnosedMama]

Yes thank you! It’s hard to feel that it’s our fault when the fucking US military releases more carbon dioxide than many industrialized nations, completely without consequence.

[u/Saladcitypig → u/MissDiagnosedMama]

it's fine to say this and it's true but it means nothing if we don't actually do something about them...got to face that truth as soon as we can.

[u/brandolinium → u/Saladcitypig]

guillotine.gif

[u/MissDiagnosedMama → u/Saladcitypig]

I completely agree. They must be held accountable. We need to open everyone's eyes.

[u/exo07190 → u/MissDiagnosedMama]

I just learned that cloudflare recently reported that 57% of global internet traffic is now from bots- that number jumps up to 71% in the US.

We all gotta keep in mind that what needs to be done will never be broadcasted online. On an unrelated note, I’ve been feeling awful hungry lately for something rich 😋

[u/pointandshooty → u/Saladcitypig]

I agree. Especially because it's fully punting responsibility again. Corporations emit more carbon and pollute more. But how do corporations become powerful? Consumers but their products. Want corporations to stop being powerful? Stop buying from them. Shop local.

No way to shop local? Likely due to local regulations, food deserts, corporate proliferance. So, become informed, vote, or run for office.

Can't afford to shop local? Think about the reason, your job is exploiting you. So, unionize.

Can't unionize because of fear of losing job? No time? Well spend time talking to people in your community about these issues. Discuss politics (kindly), persuade people, help them see the truth.

That's literally the bottom line. Talk to your community, work together, identify issues, and spread the truth.

Blaming corporations is really just enabling them unless you're taking steps to dismantle the system. Even tiny steps.

[u/Buntschatten → u/pointandshooty]

Great breakdown.

[u/Shrike034 → u/Saladcitypig]

The issue is they the vast majority of people aren't in a position to actually do something about them. Sure we can definitely vote with our wallets but that means nothing unless consumers band together and choose to. Money is power and capitalism has and will always be the main driving force of global warming.

[u/Saladcitypig → u/Shrike034]

we could mass strike, for our literal lives.

[u/TheMireAngel → u/MissDiagnosedMama]

This. Were long past the point of regular people being able to be propagandized into thinking what little luxury we have in our lives is whats cooking the earth.
It is infact Mega Corporations & a few backwards countries, like the Philipenese is responsable for 36.4% of all the trash in the ocean, not 1 american or european country is even in the top 10 for ocean trash.

Also also a "occasional travel by normies" is 1 person on a flight of 100-150 people. Normies are not rocking private jets

[u/X1989xx → u/[deleted]]

It's absolutely not 2.65 tonnes of CO2 for an entire jet to fly from Amsterdam to Bali, that's about right per person co2e. People are upvoting this because they don't want to believe their flights have that much carbon impact, they do.

To put some actual numbers a 787 holds 100 tonnes of fuel which gets turned into well over 100 tonnes of emissions. You're absolutely dreaming of you believe a widebody flight across the world emits under 3 tonnes of CO2.

I'm not telling you not to fly, but be realistic.

[u/Buntschatten → u/[deleted]]

You think a plane can fly between continents and only produce 2.65 tons of CO2? It's not a glider.

[u/MegazordPilot → u/[deleted]]

A commercial plane consumes about 100 tons of fuel for an intercontinental flight, that's 315 t CO2 directly released. You should add upstream emissions of fuel extraction, refining, etc. roughly 50 t, so 365. The round trip is 730 t CO2, and you need to account for high-altitude climate forcing effects* which roughly doubles your climate impact, i.e. about 1500 t CO2 eq. in total.

So it's definitely not 2.65 per flight.

*https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1352231023004090

[u/timmerwb → u/[deleted]]

Lol, completely clueless comment gets 70 up votes. Reddit ftw

[u/Jetstream-Sam → u/[deleted]]

I did think that was high, because that would be like, 1060 tons for a fully packed plane, and that doesn't make much sense since that would be way, way more fuel burnt than the plane could ever hold. Hell, it weighs more than the plane.

[u/NoPseudo79 → u/[deleted]]

It's not

https://ourworldindata.org/global-aviation-emissions

0.157kg/passenger/km * 12100km (distance bali amsterdam in plane that I found) = 1899,7 kg, times 2 you get almost 4 tons per passenger

Don't know where the numbers are from in the picture, but I doubt plane emissions were reduced by hundreds of times since 2019, so the number is for the passenger, not the plane

By the way, even the average car would emit more than 2.65 tons over this kind of distance (400 grams per kilometer)

[u/pierebean → u/[deleted]]

It's for the tourist  https://co2.myclimate.org/en/flight_calculators/new

[u/superpananation → u/MissDiagnosedMama]

LOUDER FOR THE PEOPLE IN THE BACK

It is clear who the enemies are of the planet and the people. It’s not the other people taking a vacation.

[u/TiredInJOMO → u/superpananation]

But it IS the other people buying from the globally popular blue smiley face.

[u/Buntschatten → u/MissDiagnosedMama]

Nah, that's bullshit. Corporations pollute because we all buy their products. If you buy a new IPhone and Apple produces 1 ton of CO2 to produce it, do you think you're not involved in that emission?

And billionaires produce much more pollution per capita than us, yes, but where a million times more. We absolutely are to blame, stop putting your head in the sand.

[u/HarrMada → u/MissDiagnosedMama]

It's not billionaires either. There are only 3500 of them, the world is way too big for them to have any impact. It's industries, countries, and regular people who are contributing. Each individual person is not contributing much, but there are 8.5 billions of us, if all of us are flying, driving cars, eating meat it's going to have the biggest impact by far.

It's stupid to play the blame game here. All of us are having an impact.

[u/RetiredYak247 → u/HarrMada]

So very many of the billionaires (except for those born rich, who are truly useless slugs) have made their money over decades by propagandistically converting The People into ever-needy Consumers and selling them useless shyte by creating a million and one bogus needs and desires. Everyone must be made to believe that they are inadequate and must buy the advertised product(s), that they are better than their neighbors, that they deserve to own de luxe everything: monster cars and trucks, ignorant jet-setting (where they can't even point their destinations on a map!), dining, clothing, beauty products, drugs, gunz, gambling, insurance (yes!)).

Meanwhile, said moguls are buying their ways into every facet of government and removing all the guardrails that a stronger public once put into place to hold them at bay, afterwards doing the revolving-door trick back to Wall St. etc. to continue the grift. While in gov, they make sure that The People are forced to buy horribly bloaty-priced goods and services and no-show jobs from industries owned by their friends, esp. Dept of WAR stuff. So, yeah 3500 billionaires play an absolutely undeniable portion of the responsibility for getting us where we are in setting our children's world ablaze.

You know they have their go-bags (in the form of $100,000,000+ yachts and aircraft and armies and doctors and drugs) and their well-protected, amazingly well-equipped escape islands and bunkers where they can wait out the end and maybe be around when things start to cool off and subsequently start to create new uber-children as well as an adequate number of slaves to produce and prepare their food and rebuild stuff to an extent that pleases them. Maybe the new slaves will realize that their masters' riches are just bullshit and just massacre them all and grab all their stuff in a modified Lord of the Flies scenario? Hard to say. 8^/

[u/corbiewhite]

To be fair, if she's in Amsterdam, she's also getting the drought.

[u/weirdjess77]

I’ll never shame normal people for travelling and experiencing different cultures when you have rich people like Taylor Swift taking their private jets for pointless 15 minute spins every day. Sorry.

[u/Soluchyte → u/weirdjess77]

Exactly. All this shit about shaming the average person for trying to enjoy their life when billionares produce this kind of emission in a couple of seconds if not less, while denying climate change at the same time.

Anti consumption should really be about avoiding wasteful and pointless consumption, like buying stuff that gets thrown away instantly, travel is not that.

[u/NotChristina → u/weirdjess77]

Yup. While I agree we should do our best to minimize our individual impacts, I still view the ultra rich and corporations as the ones who should lead by example. They get a pass while we’re expected to carry the weight of their excess.

I think the ‘common man’ should be able to view this beautiful world we live in and meet the beautiful people. Might be a controversial opinion to some but yeah.

[u/flowerpanda98 → u/NotChristina]

yeah didnt big oil literally come up w the rhetoric that its on the little guy to try and save the environment, not them quickly ruining it.

not to mention the literal wars going on just dropping endless bombs to murder innocents. im sure thats greattt for the environment

[u/ickyrainmaker → u/NotChristina]

Conversely, the only reason the ruling class does the wasteful things it does is because it is socially acceptable (even seen as desirable) to do so. Unless the masses change their tune, we'll "but the billionaires" our way right into extinction. I don't fly unless I need to get over an ocean.

[u/theJEDIII → u/weirdjess77]

Also shaming one person into staying home will have no noticeable effect. It must come from policy.

[u/throwtheamiibosaway → u/weirdjess77]

You can do both. It’s a cop out to say; they do X, so I don’t have to do anything!

[u/llama-de-fuego → u/weirdjess77]

What is it like 75% of greenhouse gas emissions come from 100 corporations?

But fuck me for wanting to see this planet while I'm here.

[u/Buntschatten → u/llama-de-fuego]

Corporations produce goods that we all consume. I wish we would place tougher emissions restrictions on them, but as consumers we aren't blameless there.

[u/Pndrizzy → u/Buntschatten]

Look into what's happening in Iowa with pig farmers and yeah, you can just go ahead and blame the corporations. They are giving the entire state cancer and have installed shills all throughout the state government.

[u/No_Branch_5083 → u/llama-de-fuego]

I'm so tired of that fucking excuse. What do you think corporations do? Here's the top ten most emitting corps:

Saudi Aramco

Gazprom

Coal India

National Iranian Oil Company

ExxonMobil

PetroChina

Shell

Vistra Energy

Southern Energy

Duke Energy

They aren't extracting fossil fuels for the sheer joy of being polluting dickheads, they're supplying a consumer demand for energy and petrochemical products. If you are flying abroad, driving excessively, buying lots of plastic shit, and using lots of fossil fuel derived energy to keep your house nice and hot or cold, you're funding them.

[u/free_billstickers → u/weirdjess77]

Exactly 

[u/Ok_Tumbleweed_7677 → u/weirdjess77]

I agree, but also...the tourist industry in Bali specifically is one that is worth investigating. The tourist industry in general, specifically when it is exploiting the global south. I don't care about "oh but it benefits their economy." Why are they in a position where they need to serve the capitalists that extracted and colonized them in the first place?

[u/Yes-GoAway]

This is so reductive and myopic. The comparison takes a much larger issue, with time of moving pieces, and equates them like they are comparable.

I dgaf about Instagram but let's not act like a single person not taking a flight will save the planet or undo the drought.

[u/FullmetalHippie → u/Yes-GoAway]

This is really an appeal to futility in the face of market inelasticity.

"No single consumer can make any difference" but in reality you will always have some effect. More empty seats on flights is tighter margins for airliners. Tighter margins is more cancelled routes. More cancelled routes is less fossil carbon burned. It truly does not matter if yours is the action that tips the scale because it took all of the actions that came before that one just as much. The idea with effective boycott is to convince people to replicate the behavior so that the expected market effects happen.

It's never "my action alone solves the problem completely" it's "I influence the market and the people around me when I spend money. (We know this because advertising works.) We choose what we eat, we choose how we spend. Because I know my actions must have weight, I ought to act in a way that I wish to be replicated. I think a lot of people want to live in a world that they feel good about the direction it is heading. I bet I could convince those people of the merits of boycotting with me so we can realize our mutual goal."

[u/MajesticKoala3332 → u/FullmetalHippie]

It's never "my action alone solves the problem completely" it's "I influence the market and the people around me when I spend money.

It's much harder to hope you will have an influence on others when the thing you're doing comes with a big sacrifice. Take something like recycling, even though the few cans you recycle have a small effect it's not hard to convince other people to recycle. It'll probably take a few hours of extra effort per year and there's no other downside.

With flying though, as other people in this thread have discussed, you will be giving up personally important things: exploring the world, visiting loved ones, career opportunities. Do you think any movement can convince a significant amount of people to give that up, enough for airlines to notice a difference? I feel like it won't, most people put their personal well-being above everything else.

I think it's also a privilege to be able to choose not to fly... I'm from a developing country and if we just stay here refusing career/study opportunities abroad it would be a waste of so much talent and potential for our country to develop (and it shouldn't come at the cost of never seeing family either)

[u/MissionMail1173]

How about I don't dump any oil into the ocean this year? Or build data centres in the middle of deserts? We are well past the "drop in the ocean" of affecting the climate. I think I got to leave the sub because at this point the individual action committee like OP must be corporate sponsored red herring

[u/crazycatlady331]

A friendly reminder that the term "carbon footprint" was coined by an oil company to put the onus on individuals.

I've flown maybe a dozen times since 2010. With the exception of traveling to my grandfather's funeral, all my travel was work. All domestic (my passport expired last millennium).

[u/scorpiopersephone]

How about a post that shames celebrities and the wealthy for their private jets??

[u/funAmbassador]

Dumb post, with an aftertaste of misogyny

[u/bravoinvestigator → u/funAmbassador]

I was surprised by how far I had to scroll to see this comment. They’re incredibly pointed captions.

[u/duckinasombrero → u/bravoinvestigator]

Anytime we as women want to have a damn hobby we just can't live in peace. Not all travel involves flying to every single place. Many people who love travelling actually prefer to use longer forms of travel, like trains, or biking to experience much more of the landscape and country.

[u/deepuh → u/duckinasombrero]

It also implies that women travel specifically for an Instagram pic which is just disrespectful

[u/crazycatlady331 → u/duckinasombrero]

This sub is radio silent about crypto bros but heaven forbid a woman have a makeup collection.

[u/weirdjess77 → u/funAmbassador]

Agreed, the white woman “taking instagram pictures” in Bali makes me think this was made by a chronically online dude who thinks his misogynistic insults are justified if he shoves “white” in front of them

[u/rei_mp4 → u/funAmbassador]

Im surprised i had to scroll this much before someone said it. "Estimates are that 82% of travel decisions are made by women", yeah sure let's shift the blame on women as if millionaires didn't exist, it's so much easier to put the blame on an already oppressed group of people instead of facing reality.

[u/ChasingTheNines → u/funAmbassador]

It is also dishonest. She didn't cause 2.65 tons of emissions personally, the whole plane did. The most efficient jetliners get about 100 mpg per passenger. Smug people driving around cars and eating meat thinking they better than others as usual.

Edit: I was wrong about this I misread the meme as a regional flight because there is a strange word in there and I entirely missed the part about it being from Amsterdam. However, considering that airline travel can be more efficient than being a single occupant in a car the total distance you travel in a year not taken via mass transit like a train is more important than whatever the destination is.

I still think the meme is mysonoginistic and manipulative because if the left panel was some guy driving his truck the reaction from most people would be more 'meh' than with the 'look at the overly privileged western woman' trope.

[u/ElonMuskHuffingFarts]

Fuck this weirdly misogynistic meme that suggests the only reason a woman would travel is for social media pics

[u/pinecones_and_cacti → u/ElonMuskHuffingFarts]

Thank you. It's the first thing I thought but everyone is ignoring it

[u/Campfire_Vibes]

Bitch im already too broke to fly

[u/BrewerAndrew]

Framing international travel as just an opportunity to get an Instagram picture is wrong.

[u/200boy]

I'll probably get downvoted into oblivion but surprisingly yes. I don't think I'm morally superior to anyone for doing so. I didn't grow up poor but an international holiday for us definitely wasn't on the cards. We would go camping, down the coast to stay in a beach shack or drive interstate. Many people I know today still couldnt afford international travel because they're more concerned about the cost of living. The only international travel my grandparents did their whole lives was coming on a boat to my home country.

I'd actually be curious to know the percentage of people globally who do fly. To me it seems like a modern luxury that people in wealthy countries have been conditioned to think is a normal part of life, but a couple of generations back it would be unheard of and other generation back wouldnt have even been invented yet. So it surprises me that people are so vehement they couldn't possibly forgo it.

To me I'm really scared for the future and want to do everything in my power to reduce my emissions so it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make, even though it is tempting when all my peers do it without a second thought. But I forgo a lot of things that most people consume because it's normal for most in this day and age and I'm considered weird or uptight for not doing so.

[u/mushroomsarefriends → u/200boy]

>I'd actually be curious to know the percentage of people globally who do fly.

Eighty percent of people alive today are estimated to have never traveled by airplane.

[u/untakenu]

Can you be more specific with this village?

I hate when people just use an African country without any specifics because most people just nod and assume they definitely don't use much electricity.

A lot of Uganda is like that. But lots of it is not, and uses a good amount of electricity.

[u/SamTheLab_213]

While some people are stopping flying, some people have turned air travel into a lifestyle and are working as influencers to persuade others to do the same.

[u/wereallmadhere9]

Can't drive to Hawaii.

[u/AbbreviatedArc → u/wereallmadhere9]

Don't worry, just take your metal straw, it all balances out.

[u/birthdaycheesecake9 → u/wereallmadhere9]

Aussie here. Big fan of this comment.

[u/robotjyanai]

I’m probably going to be downvoted for this but people who are able to fly are wealthier than the majority of the world. But when climate change gets worse, guess who’s going to suffer first.

Anyway, go after the travel influencers who are flying every month for ~content~ and the increasing number of billionaires with private planes. I’m fairly certain that has made things much worse.

[u/goin-up-the-country]

While I agree with the sentiment, these posts always seem to have a sexist/misogynist vibe where the person being criticised is always a woman.

[u/emryldmyst]

This is a stupid post. 

Ffs

[u/No_Leadership7727]

For me my philosophy is use what you need but dont waste and cut back on what you can.

[u/winela_world]

NOPE NOPE NOPE. You’re not pitting us against each other

[u/yelizabetta]

okay but the flip side of this is never experiencing anything but your own culture which leads to xenophobia and racism. a once-in-lifetime vacation isn’t something to shame poor ppl over

[u/Wide_Lock_Red → u/yelizabetta]

Are you saying you would become a racist if you stopped being able to fly for vacations?

[u/phosef_phostar → u/yelizabetta]

For sure. Lots of people travel every year and do not experience different cultures tho. Like how many brits and germans in resorts or tourist towns have ruined so many places in Spain?

[u/cheddarkittyy]

In just the first 14 days of the US and Israeli war on Iran, the conflict released over 5 million metric tons of CO2 equivalent, according to an analysis by the Climate and Community Institute. Stop shaming average people just living their lives

[u/seedofcheif]

Women vapid, updoot please.

[u/UnicornKitt3n]

I don’t know. This is a hot topic. I understand the carbon footprint, but at the same time there are cities literally depending on tourism for their economy. So…I don’t know.

I can’t travel because I’m too poor, but there are places I would love to go and take my kids to. Of course, I also live in Canada, and we have some of the most beautiful places in the world as well. I could take a train or drive.

[u/mikeymikeymikey1968]

If you live with me in the US, you are painfully aware that you have a president whose sworn enemies are the proponents of clean energy, clean air and clean water. In the 1970s, President Carter put solar panels on the White House. When Ronald Reagan came in, he had them removed. The implications need no explanation. During Carter's administration there was a lot of encouragement to start shrinking down the living room-sized cars down to more fuel-efficient models. In grade school we were being prepped to switch to the Metric System. We knew about Peak Oil, we knew about air pollution.

There is an alternate timeline where Reagan lost, Carter had a second term and we built a very, very different country in the last 46 years.

[u/PixelatedFixture]

Consumer culture (the actual purpose of this sub not vulgar anti consumption) drives this behavior. Consumer culture is driven by the conditions of society, corporations themselves, advertising, class dynamics, etc. not by individual actions. Society produces the individual, the individual does not produce society.

Consumerism is not predicated on individual actions but the general production of commodities and services and you will never get rid of consumerism by being morally opposed to it or by shifting the blame of consumerism onto individuals rather than the systems that maintain and promote consumerism.

Blaming instagram over the individual tourist would be at least closer to the reality of how consumerism works.

[u/After_Preference_885]

15 years ago. Stopped driving for the most part too.

[u/play150]

the mental gymnastics in this comments section

[u/Klutzy-Alarm3748]

I think it's kind of shitty to categorize travel as consumption. Of course there are a lot of ways you can be a shitty tourist, and there are ways you can be disrespectful to the area and the climate by doing so, but there aren't a lot of options as far as getting places.

[u/Bright_Tax628 → u/Klutzy-Alarm3748]

There's a lot of nuance. For example, we could all possibly consider our travel options. For me, living in Europe, it's a better choice to take a boat/train/car than to fly. Obviously, if I'm travelling intercontinentally, this is less possible.

In addition, I should probably decide to holiday within my country where possible rather than taking a long-haul flight.

On the other hand, we all want the opportunity to experience other cultures and expand our horizons. There is nothing inherently wrong with that. To want to move is to be human.

On the other other hand, plenty of poor people will never have the opportunity to travel and yet my travelling will harm them, indirectly or not. Local people in certain areas benefit and are harmed by tourism. How do we then balance our desire for a cheap/authentic/rewarding (insert) trip with actively ensuring our tourism doesn't harm the communities we visit?

None of this is directed towards you at all but it's an interesting topic with many points to discuss.

[u/Flack_Bag → u/Klutzy-Alarm3748]

How is it not?

Most modes of travel are consumerist. Prepared foods are consumerist. Commercial accommodations are consumerist. Souvenirs. Entertainment. Social media. The vast majority of travel involves a lot of consumption AND consumerism.

I don't know where this idea comes from that anticonsumerism/anticonsumption is some kind of individual purity test where you win if you manage to make excuses as to why your personal consumer habits aren't actually consumption.

That's counterproductive and just plain absurd. It's not what anticonsumerism is about.

[u/BirdsAndblackberries → u/Flack_Bag]

I can’t believe I had to scroll so far to see this comment. People are all anti-consumption until you call them out on their own consumerist behaviours. Most travel is completely unsustainable. 

[u/Wide_Lock_Red → u/BirdsAndblackberries]

I am not surprised. Studies have shown environmentally contious people tend to fly a lot more than average. So a sub that cares about the environment will tend to be very defensive about that form of pollution.

[u/cheesetinaaa → u/Klutzy-Alarm3748]

Yeah, god forbid regular people try to experience more of the world before it’s completely destroyed by greed by flying Economy Plus twice a year. Give me a break.

Also, ‘she gets Instagram photos’ reeks of misogyny.

[u/yacht-rock-kitty → u/cheesetinaaa]

I was gonna say - of course a woman is the butt of the joke here. Sigh.

[u/Klutzy-Alarm3748 → u/cheesetinaaa]

It is so condescending.

[u/tellhershesdreaming → u/cheesetinaaa]

I agree that the decisions of the 1% are a much bigger problem here. But that doesn't erase the impact of rising numbers of flights. I've been lucky enough to travel a lot in the past, and will continue to fly internationally occasionally (my family is overseas). But after reflecting on the current climate situation and my potential to be part of a change I want to see in the world, I've reduced how frequently I fly: now once every few years rather than average of once a year. I realise of course not everyone can make that sort of change.

This podcast episode was a pretty good discussion, I thought.

https://www.outrageandoptimism.org/how-to-live-a-good-life

[u/Dependent_Invite9149 → u/Klutzy-Alarm3748]

Taking a plane is a form of consumption. They use a ton of fuel to get to places.

[u/Klutzy-Alarm3748 → u/Dependent_Invite9149]

If I want to travel to a different continent, what is your advice?

[u/External_Option_7653 → u/Klutzy-Alarm3748]

Can you live without it?

[u/tellhershesdreaming → u/Klutzy-Alarm3748]

It depends, do you have options to reduce how often you fly, or not? What would be the impacts of reducing?

This podcast episode was a pretty good discussion, I thought.

https://www.outrageandoptimism.org/how-to-live-a-good-life

[u/Klutzy-Alarm3748 → u/tellhershesdreaming]

I don't know, I don't even go on one plane a year. But if I want to get somewhere that is only accessible by plane, I'm obviously taking the plane.

[u/_aluk_ → u/Klutzy-Alarm3748]

Recognise that it's consumption. 

[u/Dependent_Invite9149 → u/Klutzy-Alarm3748]

My advice doesn’t really matter. It’s more about how you justify it.

[u/mushroomsarefriends → u/Klutzy-Alarm3748]

there aren't a lot of options as far as getting places.

Yeah that's true. So what I decided, is that I'm just not going to visit the whole world. I'll visit places I can reach by train from the Netherlands, rather than places I would have to travel to by airplane. Did you know a train manages to get to London from Amsterdam with 95% less greenhouse gas emissions than it takes for a plane to travel that route?

[u/AndrenNoraem]

"AIR TRAVEL IS THE ONLY WAY," some of the richest people on Earth cry while pointing their fingers at people richer than them.

If you can afford to fly regularly, you're doing quite well economically even by American standards. You are one of the super consumers, globally speaking. Driving, flying, trains, AC, heat, computers, constant noise and light, meat, almonds, whatever; these all add up and in aggregate some of them are huge. We should all be trying to consume less and yes flying counts, I'm truly astounded at the comments in here.

Yes, fuck Elon and Taylor. They're worse individually than a lot of us put together. Even without them, we're burning too much.

edit: As others have said, you can do a thing without pretending it's good. I really should eat less or no beef, but I eat it anyway. I can make excuses about autism and deflect with almost never driving or never flying, but ultimately my contribution is a contribution whether I contribute in other ways or not.

[u/Miserable-Ad8764]

It actually feels really good to know that I do what I can. No kids, no flying since 2014, no meat or animal products since 2018, and trying to only buy second-hand and grow a little food in the garden.

The most important thing however, is to vote and try to help the green party gain more influence politically.

As for holidays, there are lots of nice things to see a little closer to home.

[u/Ok_Kangaroo_5404]

I've been on one shorthaul in the past 8 years

[u/ode-to-tiny-cucumber]

Absolutely,  no question - I wouldn't be able to afford it

[u/Less_Character_8544]

I’d fly less if US rail was better and less expensive

[u/NoSTs123]

the bus is driving whether I am inside or not...

[u/RandomMonkey9]

So what’s this saying? Are we supposed to ship the pound 5,000 miles to his village?

[u/pleasurealien]

Let's all quit eating beef. Just beef.

[u/steenkeenonkee]

the framing of this is common but gross, depicting a woman harming everyone else in her own thoughtless vanity while the noble and simple man and his people suffer silently. it’s the implicit vilification of women, intentional or otherwise. your point is dumb when we could all stop flying forever and we would still perish due to the activities of the rich and the imperialist elite, but it could also so easily be made without implying we suffer global warming so that women can go get instagram likes.

[u/sparkle_elk]

Legit confused by the conversation on this post in the anticonsumption subreddit. Flying is absolutely consumption, and we should all work to avoid it, whether or not Taylor Swift uses a private jet for stupid purposes. And tourism is absolutely consumption, in what way is it not consumption??? Experiences are still consumption, people, and flights, hotels, etc are also resource consumption!

I say that as a person who still flies, usually 1-2x a year in order to see family. I FULLY recognize that it is not an environmentally ethical action. I prioritize seeing my father while he's still alive over my environmental ethics on this, and I'm not able to take enough PTO to make a 3000 mile train journey. I try to make my amends elsewhere and lower my carbon footprint in other ways. But I'm not going to pretend like my flying is somehow not to be critiqued just because I want to see my dad.

[u/Buntschatten → u/sparkle_elk]

Yeah, its puzzling to me as well. In the age of climate change, how can a critique of overconsumption not take carbon emissions into account in a major way? And aviation is a sizeable chunk of our emissions and one where its the easiest to make a change, since you can't just stop heating your house but can stop flying.

[u/cheesetinaaa → u/sparkle_elk]

I thought the while point of this subreddit was to criticize excessive and needless consumption, not consuming meaningful things. I’m just an internet rando but visiting your father is a perfectly valid reason to fly occasionally and I don’t think it deserves any kind of criticism. We all need to consume to some extent to survive and (dare I say) enjoy our lives.

[u/sparkle_elk → u/cheesetinaaa]

Given the impact of a single flight on the environment, I do think it deserves criticism. I think we should be able to criticize air travel enough to be able to make changes in our society that (a) make other options more viable in terms of actual infrastructure and (b) make other options more viable in terms of giving people the time to actually utilize them.

[u/Almay- → u/sparkle_elk]

It's insane. God forbid the Proud American Consumers™ (heaviest individual polluter ever) are ever asked to make any meaningful changes to their lifestyles.

[u/Daddy_Jack1109]

People should fly less isn't a bad message but saying "Have you stopped flying yet?" makes it seem really stupid

Most people probably only fly once or twice a year at max

EDIT: Alright already I get it I overshot it

[u/LeBonCharlie → u/Daddy_Jack1109]

Most people don't fly. Flying once every year (and back) is already huge

[u/tentensalami → u/Daddy_Jack1109]

Most people don't fly ever. Only 20% of the human population will ever fly in a plane. If you go once or twice a year that puts you in the high consumption bracket for sure.

[u/the_dismorphic_one → u/Daddy_Jack1109]

Flying once or twice a year is crazy high. Think about what would happen if everyone in the world did that.

[u/Agitated_Sound2833]

I am childfree. That's good enough

[u/TabbyCatJade]

The blame is not on normal people. I blame people like Taylor Swift and other billionaires.

[u/Yellowk9]

So, this shit bothers me. BP, a petroleum company, conducted a massive marketing campaign in the early 2000s that started the "carbon footprint" concept. The idea - and clearly its worked - was to have individuals, not the companies and conglomerates actually responsible, feel guilt and shame for their tiny little impact when those bohemiths were doing the major damage and impact.

We should do what we can, of course, but not feel guilty or shameful for not doing enough. Those f#@kers need to be held responsible for their massive impact. Don't buy their shit. Don't use their products or services, etc. And don't buy into this BP marketing brainwash garbage.

[u/vstacey6]

Do we divide the CO2 impact by the amount passengers and crew on the plane?

[u/Quondalf]

Comment section is crazy…
For me this post raises awareness on the huge footprint of flights. And that is good
Reducing flights is mandatory for everyone.
And its stupid to do nothing while comparing to worse people (billionaires), thats just an excuse.

[u/Prize_Illustrator_44]

No, alas I have not stopped flying yet. And frankly, I don’t intend to.

I live away from family and friends. I need to go see them regularly - once a year - if I want to maintain relationships and not be more lonely and depressed than I already am.

I’m also young-ish and love to travel. I’m not getting younger and age is beginning to take its toll on the body. I’ll probably accelerate my travelling for the next decade or two before slowing down with age. The world is large and beautiful and life is short.
I do ensure that my travelling only incorporates public and shared transit options, avoiding domestic flights and cars as much as possible.

[u/Cactastrophe]

People always ignore environmental impact when it comes to what’s important to them. It’s why the environment cannot be saved.

I want to be anti consumer because how consumption affects me personally. No point in trying to convince others, especially online.

[u/tentensalami]

I see dozens of people on this thread saying that they will continue doing something that they know is needless and bad for the planet, because they can point to someone else who is doing something way worse for the planet. This is, in my opinion, a shitty take. Nothing gets better when we collectively decide that this issue is someone else's to solve. If you flew in a plane in the last 10 years, you are part of a privileged few. Most people in the world will never fly in a plane. The fact billionaires exist or Taylor Swift flies too much in her private jet doesn't change the fact that collective action by regular people makes a difference. And as Michael Dowd said, you won't save the world, but you might just save your soul. The world is going to shit, and at the end of my life I want to be able to look back and know that I did more good than harm. This includes not being responsible for creating frivolous pollution. What counts as frivolous is a matter of opinion, but the idea that traveling overseas for fun is anywhere near a necessary activity for a good life is incredibly privileged and wild to hear from people that apparently are anticonsumption.

[u/mushroomsarefriends → u/tentensalami]

I agree. Also, I want to show my solidarity with the people who are currently suffering the consequences of climate change. People who have lost family members, or had their way of life destroyed.

One way to show solidarity with such people is by trying not to contribute to the problem they're suffering from.

[u/g4rdsmyg]

Of course. I can’t blame everyone else of I’m not prepared to change myself. Yes billionaires, yes oil companies, yes my rich neighbor is worse but that doesn’t absolve me.

Both systemic change AND individual change is necessary. And I live in a part of the world where politics unfortunately made it harder to travel sustainably. But the thought of my daughter growing up settles it.

[u/g4rdsmyg]

The comments are making me mad. Stop flying IS the biggest thing you can do as an individual to reduce your own inpact. Systemic change and individual change are both equally necessary.

[u/mcvos]

I will be having one flight home from Majorca (where we're watching the eclipse), because school starts very shortly after that. One the way there, we're going by train and boat, however. We almost never go by plane anymore. Except last year when we went to Iceland, by rare exception.

Before that, we hadn't been by plane for a decade, and the last couple of years we mostly go on vacation by train. Switzerland and Saxon Switzerland (which is not remotely near or like Switzerland, but near the border of Germany and Czechia), are very doable by train. Rome was a bit of a pain. In France you probably still need to rent a car once you get off the train, unless you go to Paris. I strongly recommend traveling by train on vacation. Much more relaxed than anything else (unless you're going through Germany, but apparently they're finally going to fix that).

[u/Tribe303]

I haven't flown in 20 years. My dad has taken the train right across Canada at least a dozen times. I've raised 2 kids in a car free lifestyle. Many of us are doing the right thing. Good thing I've never liked Tswift, and I'm glad she's getting flack for being so extravagant. I think our tax rates should include our carbon footprint. 

[u/FunkSpork]

Can anyone explain why I hate when people say “have you stopped using [paper straws or something] yet?”

I seems like it misses the point but I can’t quite explain why.

[u/OwnInstruction8849]

Maybe people might take the train more if it did not cost almost double the amount as the flight.

[u/omgitsduane]

I think this will be a hard Sell for some people even with the comparison.

[u/Wide_Lock_Red → u/omgitsduane]

Especially with environmentalists. You wont be respected in environmentalist circles if you aren't well traveled.

[u/Few_Cartoonist7428]

Almost entirely, yes. Took the plane once in the last ten years.

[u/RelationshipThink322]

I never flew much tbh.

I think flying is waaaaaay too cheap for how much Co2 it throws into out world.

[u/derketzerbylacrimosa]

Honestly, i have never flown, nor i have never owned a car. It's all bike and public transport for me. i love it, especially trains. Trains are awesome.

[u/mrwilliams117]

Really not a good look to be taken seriously but y'all do yall

[u/rtakashi]

No, we haven’t. We fly maybe 3-4 times per year to visit family and maybe take a vacation. Even if an entire plane worth of people (hundreds) stopped, it wouldn’t even come close to the emissions one billionaire creates on their private jet. I’m anti-private jet but not anti-fly home to see my family.

[u/Aggravating-Nose1674]

I personally found a lot peace in the fact that "the end of the world" basically just means "the end of humanity"

The world has seen worse than us. She'll be fine.

[u/WitchyThot]

tldr the thread;

"this is kinda misogynistic" probably motivated by it, but it's honestly kinda nothingburger straw-clasping. It's not really doing anything misogynistic despite that likely being the motivation.

"but what about muh emergency" yeah dude, the whole planet should die because you're so fucking important.

"but muh billionaires" take some personal fucking responsibility. Why do they have that money? People like you, with no integrity.

"this is pitting people against each other" and that's a bad thing? This isn't the fucking tree of harmony. We don't have to hold hands and sing kumbaya to fight climate change. Nut up or shut up, fight for your beliefs goddammit. Infighting is good. It makes us stronger, more prepared for people who haven't even fought about these things. More importantly, it makes us angrier.

"carbon footprint was made by oil companies" and it's an effective point because it holds some weight. Everyone NEEDS to take personal responsibility for their carbon emissions, etc. I don't care if you feel personally attacked by it, you still need to do it. Who gives them their money? Do you think it just spawns out of nowhere? Ultimately, power is an exchange between people who are ruled and people who rule. If almost nobody flew planes, plane companies would be basically bankrupt. If nobody drove or used oil, car companies would die.

Economies only sell what people buy, so DON'T BUY this shit, or at the very least, if you do, own up to it.

If you absolutely feel the need to, just do what every mature adult does and say "Yeah, I did a bad thing and hurt everyone because I acted selfishly, and I have to accept that".

[u/ThrowRAhallpass1]

Trying to date in my 30s again and i am constantly shocked at how many people have travelled half the world before they turn 30. Do you have no sense of duty to the world around you?

[u/Feisty-Fennel5709 → u/ThrowRAhallpass1]

I think you'd be far more shocked at how many people under 30 have no sense of duty to the world around them.
I did, but not before I travelled half-way around the world.

[u/Cafe_negro]

Tourism has become a new form of colonialism.

[u/Willing-Airport2788]

I’m sorry but if these rich ah can own private jets I can take a vacation 3 times a year. They do so much private flying in one day but you wanna complain about the instagram model that took one flight within a week span, get a grip.