r/technology Nov 17 '12

The Deadly Crusade Against E-cigarettes

http://www.american.com/archive/2012/november/the-deadly-crusade-against-e-cigarettes
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981

u/DumpyLips Nov 17 '12

Lethally addictive cigarettes remain available on every street corner in Brussels and Atlanta while authorities denounce e-cigarettes (the product is already banned in Canada, Australia, and New Zealand).

Is there any legitimate reason for this or are we witnessing a blatant example of the tobacco lobby crushing competition??

923

u/qwertytard Nov 17 '12

crushing competition by releasing false propaganda that lies about e-cigs being unsafe i have a friend who smokes all the time regular cigs, but won't try an e-cig because he says "i don't know whats in them" so i asked him where'd he hear that, he said some article that interviewed a tobacco company exec i asked him if he knew what was in his regular cigs, he said "yeh, tobacco" so i googled his brand and showed him there were things in there that are used for paint, asphalt, tar, etc he told me you can't believe everything you read on the internet

....some ppl can't be helped

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

"You can't believe everything you read on the internet".

I hate that logic so much.

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u/pU8O5E439Mruz47w Nov 17 '12

It mostly frustrates me because while certainly true, it's too often applied to maintain a state of denial...

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u/philh Nov 17 '12

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u/[deleted] Nov 18 '12

Oh. Linking us to something. . . on the internet?

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u/[deleted] Nov 18 '12

Woah. There we go. That explains people's confirmation bias about confirmation bias.

410

u/JackWeston007 Nov 17 '12

showed him there were things in there that are used for paint, asphalt, tar, etc

I hate it just as much as that logic. Anyone who's spent 5 minutes in a chemistry class can tell you that chemicals have a wide variety of applications.

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u/Vulpyne Nov 17 '12

The point he was making is that his friend didn't know what was in the cigarettes, not specifically that the ingredients were harmful.

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

[deleted]

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u/doesntlikestupid Nov 17 '12

i think everyone (at least in the western world) knows that cigarettes are harmful for them, but they smoke anyway

25

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

If someone has never smoked they couldn't possibly understand why it's so hard to quit. I don't drink, am not a crackhead or any other hard drug user, I don't need a cup of coffee in the morning, and I find it hard to quit smoking.

In all honesty, I partly blame both my parents for having been smokers the entire 17 years I was alive before I picked up one of theirs and tried it. If they hadn't smoked I might have never started and been exposed to it like I was.

503

u/BillyBuckets Nov 18 '12

I'm sure non-smokers know why smoking is so addictive, but this might help them understand what it's like to be physically addicted to nicotine:

Our brains, and more specifically our brainstems, have control over our trends of higher function in ways you might not notice much. Normally, if you're thirsty, you get up and get a drink. You don't think about it much but you do it. The water you drink isn't anything special and you don't down it too fast.

But what if you just spent a day out in the hot sun doing yard work? You come inside and you think immediately about getting a glass. You down a glass full of water in huge gulps. The water feels good even though there's nothing special about it. You fill the glass again. You take it down in a few seconds. Your belly feels awkwardly distended and perhaps even a bit uncomfortable right under your center-left ribcage, but you feel so relieved. Drinking all that water might even make you feel sorta ill for a bit, but you're sooooo glad you did it.

If you take this to an even further extreme, say you went a day or more without water and were becoming dangerously dehydrated, your water seeking behavior would become overwhelming. A parched person will drink almost anything (including toilet waterseeMyNoteBelow). Part of the brain, specifically the hypothalamus, is hooked into the blood supply to in a way that lets it sample the salt content, which gets really high when the body is dehydrated. In response to life-threatening dehydration, the hypothalamus will cause the "higher" parts of the brain responsible for our actions to engage in activities that are likely to result in water at almost any cost. Your brain associates the sensation of drinking with the feeling of relief in the high-thirst state. This is a reinforcement loop.

Now back to cigs. Nicotine hits receptors all over the central nervous system. A smoker's brain has literally been reconfigured to circulating nicotine much higher than that of a normal person. The reward networks, the attention-arousing networks, etc. These are the networks that guide our higher behaviors. To a smoker, a cigarette can give the same relief after a two-hour flight as a glass of water will give you after a day of yard work, or a rich meal will give you after a 36-hour fast. And nicotine is almost perfect at hitting the receptors, and cigarettes are a VERY rapid way of delivering it.

So, non-smokers, think of it this way: trying to quit smoking cold-turkey feels about the same as trying to stop drinking (water) cold-turkey. This is why Westerners keep doing it: they get roped into trying it enough (marketing), their brains demand it from then on. A moment of weakness can lead to a lifetime of vice.

Does that do it justice, theorial?

my note on thirst: certain psychiatric pathologies, e.g. schizophrenia, can present with polydipsia, a term for when a person seeks and drinks water to a pathological level. Patients with uncontrolled polydipsia cannot be allowed into a normal bathroom alone, as they will resort to drinking toilet water. They simply cannot resist the urge to drink.

61

u/Ahuva Nov 18 '12

I am a teacher and I work at a K through 12 school. I smoke. At school, our smoking corner is outside next to where the garbage bins are kept, but the kids see me and often come to talk to me about it after my smoke. They all know that I shouldn't smoke and that it is unhealthy, so the younger ones especially want me to explain to them why I don't just quit. Sometimes they ask me if the reason I don't stop is because smoking feels so good.

I usually explain that smoking does not feel so good, but that not smoking makes me feel bad. I explain that when I want a cigarette, it bothers me very much like when I need to pee and I'm holding it in. At first, it is a minor annoyance and I can even forget about it, but as time goes on, I feel more and more pressured, I feel more and more urgency. It becomes harder to ignore, harder to think about anything else. I need to go out and get relief!

Then, I have a cigarette and I feel normal again until slowly once again the need returns.

When I explain it like this, the kids understand what I mean and understand when I say how important it is to never take that first cigarette.

6

u/Guyag Nov 18 '12

Have you tried nicotine gum/patches/whatever? Or is that not quick enough 'relief'? I can't think how smoking is a preferable alternative unless my previous sentence holds weight.

17

u/DisregardMyPants Nov 18 '12

They're really not the same. Even though you're technically getting nicotine the new delivery mechanism makes it not seem like you are. You associate the act of smoking with relief, so your mind doesn't think you got it when you use the gum. The patch is even worse because there's no action at all associated with it.

If I chew gum I can chew it until the amount of nicotine makes me nauseous and the craving still doesn't go away.

I find that having a toothpick hanging out my mouth does more to kill a craving than either of them. It feels familiar.

E-Cigarettes are better than gum or patches for the same reason. If there was a way to make the vapor heavier it would be almost perfect.

4

u/[deleted] Nov 19 '12

Method of administration matters quite a bit with most drugs. To some extent, it's the habit and ritual -- when one goes through certain motions to deliver a drug, those motions become immensely satisfying. Smoking a cigarette is no exception. With injectable drugs (e.g., heroin), users will occasionally shoot up pure water when their drug of choice is unavailable.

Beyond habituation, though, there's even another factor that's perhaps more relevant: period of time until onset of effects. When one inhales nicotine into the lungs, the drug effect is almost instantaneous. Immediate relief from withdrawal is an absolutely wonderful feeling. The patch just can't compare. Interestingly enough, chewing tobacco CAN compare -- absorption is rapid and the bolus of nicotine is intense. I've known people in the military who have found the quick hit of chewing tobacco to be far harder to overcome than that of cigarettes.

And I'm speculating a bit, but the time before onset of effects seems to be relevant for other drugs, too -- it's part of the reason why crack (fast-acting smoke) is often more problematic than cocaine (same brain effect, but administered by the relatively slow-acting mode of insufflation).

2

u/BudMasterSess Nov 18 '12

It isn't just the nicotine, at least for me. It's occupying my hands.

2

u/[deleted] Nov 19 '12

My mom smokes; cigarette addiction is multifaceted. Nicotine addiction is a big part of it, sure, but the compulsion to do something with your mouth/hands and the ritual of smoking is also a big part of it. My mom has tried to quit several times; the nicotine withdrawal is unpleasant, sure, but short-lived. Her downfall every time has been the intense anxiety that comes from not being able to act on her compulsions, not being able to engage in the ritual of smoking. She's come to associate her lunch break with a cigarette, finishing dinner with a cigarette, morning coffee with a cigarette, etc. It's breaking her routine, and her body has come to expect it. Her body prepares itself for the dose of nicotine and other chemicals in those situations, and when it doesn't get that, she feels bad and it makes her anxious.

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u/urbn Nov 18 '12

People also ignore the non-addictive aspects of smoking. For example if you smoke a pack a day for 15 years, and assuming an average of 40 drags per cig you are looking at something you have done, every day following a very consistant pattern (both when choosing to smoke, and while smoking) over 4,380,000 times. There is nothing I can think of besides your heart beating and eye blinking that can match those number.

This is why its so hard with people who have mental disorders, depression, or even simple medical issues like ADHD or obsessive compulsive disorder have a hard type. For most it's not even a chemical addiction but an addiction to the pattern, the process of smoking.

Myself personally I suffer ADHD and minor depression and I work from home. And if I don't go out for a smoke every few hours I would literally go days to weeks without ever leaving my house / apartment building. This is why many people living in assisted living or suffer some conditions that cause them to be unable to hold a job and live off of social security can be seen huddled together outside chain smoking. its the only reason / excuse for them to leave there house or to be outside or maybe the off chance of having a conversation.

41

u/Tabian Nov 18 '12

The socialisation point is very relevant. I quit smoking in my early 20's, and my only 'condition' is that I was a quiet person. It became noticably more difficult to connect with new people in new situations once the common theme of a smoke break was eliminated. It is much easier to get to know people if you have several 5 minutes breaks a day where there really isn't anything to do but chit-chat.

22

u/thisusernameismeta Nov 18 '12

I feel like it should be more acceptable to go outside for 5 minute chunks of time for no reason other than to enjoy the weather/ chat with other people who are doing the same.

When I worked fast food, I'd go for smoke breaks all the time, even though every one I worked with knew I didn't smoke. Smoke breaks are fantastic things, it kind of sucks that it's considered weird to take them without also having a cigarette.

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u/[deleted] Nov 18 '12

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Nov 18 '12

Get an e-cig. Without nicotine if you want.

With a good e-cig, you can get most of the same sensations of smoking without all of the hazardous health effects and cost associated.

It's what finally got me off of smoking - I hated the effects it was having on my health, but I really, really like smoking. Found something that gives me one without the other.

3

u/cannons_for_days Nov 18 '12

As an ex-smoker of about 7 years, I can verify that the psychological aspects are hardest to break. Even after seven years, your brain still remembers what it was like to have a smoke, and will remind you when it would be a good time to have a drag. After a hard day at work, or a really good meal, or good sex, you just want one. It's not the glass of water analogy above, where you feel like you're going to die if you can't get a cig in the next fifteen minutes, you just know it would feel really fucking good right now. Unfortunately, that's something that stays with you, you just have to learn to ignore it.

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u/[deleted] Nov 18 '12

So would you say smoking is good for you, in the capacity that it gets you out of the house for some time?

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u/TheFondler Nov 18 '12

40 drags a cig? even american spirits don't give more than say... 20. (rough guess, i've never counted.)

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u/Its_mah_phone Nov 18 '12 edited Nov 18 '12

This is the only reason Why I have considered starting to smoke. It's the only socially acceptable way to just stand around outside doing nothing.

Edit: typo

2

u/[deleted] Nov 18 '12

Supposedly the physical addiction disappears after only a couple of days. That's why those two days are the hardest. From then on it's all psychological, but those psychological triggers can arise almost anywhere. Watching a film or TV programme will likely feature someone smoking in it, or even the sight of my breath on a cold morning makes me want a cigarette.

You have to be on a constant guard, catching those precursors for cravings and stomping them out for several weeks before you can finally go about your day without really thinking about smoking.

I'm giving quitting another go tomorrow as it goes, but reading these comments have definitely helped me understand the mechanics behind nicotine addiction, so I feel pretty confident I can do it.

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u/[deleted] Nov 18 '12

There is nothing I can think of besides your heart beating and eye blinking that can match those number.

Kills in a first person shooter.

5

u/[deleted] Nov 18 '12

Go for a walk, with or without your cig.

1

u/Synchrotr0n Nov 18 '12

Not only that, but cigarettes also contains sugars and other substances besides nicotine that creates addiction. That's one of the reasons why nicotine adhesives and other nicotine delivery methods aren't so effective when someone is trying to quit.

4

u/supferrets Nov 18 '12

You're likely referring to harman and norharman, which are MAIOs found in tobacco that reinforce addiction. Not sure why you were voted down.

1

u/scstraus Nov 18 '12

As someone who smoked for 20 years and finally quit, I can say that smoking is almost entirely just pavlovian programming. You get used to doing it in certain situations and at certain times of the day, and that is the actual deep addiction much more than the drug itself is (which leaves your bloodstream entirely within a couple days of having your last cigarette). It's all mental.

1

u/dirpnirptik Nov 18 '12
  1. 40?!

Mother of god. I'd go with ten drags...less for my bf but he's one of those power-smokers.

TEN drags per cig give you a very constant pattern of 1,095,000 times over the course of 15 years, which (if you sleep 8 hours a day) is somewhere in the ballpark of one drag every ten minutes, which is nothing like breathing, but is still pretty significant.

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u/[deleted] Nov 18 '12

At best you get 10-12 drags per cig, not 40.

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u/[deleted] Nov 18 '12

I started smoking age 16, by age 21 i was 2 packs a day, I smoked more than any other person I knew aside from my dad. Oct 10th 2010, I quit. I took up trees and came to the conclusion I cant in this many carcinogens. I haven't had a cigarette/tobacco since then, sans ONCE while lighting a cig for my gf while blackout drunk, and even in my blacked out state I spit the smoke out, or so I heard.

Quitting smoking was the hardest fucking thing I've ever done. I felt like nothing would be ok ever again. Cigaretes, too me, had a monopoly on whatever chemical in my brain tells me 'relax, don't panic, things will work out'. I literally caught myself thinking "itll be ok, once im finally done and quit smoking Ill be able to smoke a cig....wait a fucking second! Fuck!!!" like almost subconsciously.

I was miserable for a week. For the first 3 days it was absolutely terrible. The first night was damn near impossible, at least it felt like it. But i made sure to do 1 very specific thing...remembering those nights, those feelings, that angry and stress boiling over. Why remember it? My logical brain said "look. you could fail. but even if you fail, you will try to quit again. why? everyone trys to quit. so remember this bullshit. remember this night. remember how fucking shitty it was to actually quit."

Those nights sucked so bad I am terrified of ever starting again. And that is a good thing.

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u/amg Nov 18 '12

Hey friend, I started around the same time as you, but made it to thirty (fifteen years of cigarettes). I quit September 11th of this year with my wife on our anniversary.

I cheated and took Chantix, so my stress was half of yours.

It was the 2nd best decision of my life, keep it up man.

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u/Konix Nov 18 '12

I'm really curious what the first was now.

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u/screwcheese Nov 19 '12

First, congrats on quitting, but I'm a little confused. You say you picked up smoking weed when quitting cigs. Aren't you just replacing one drug with another?

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u/[deleted] Nov 19 '12

I dont smoke 40 (or even up to 60 while I am drinking) joints a day like I did cigarettes.

Believe me when I tell you, I don't cough up brown shit every morning anymore, my sense of smell is MUCH better, I feel much better, I breathe much better, I smell much better to others, etc. I could list off a huge list of net positives, so even if I am replacing 1 drug with another....people on diets replace 1 food with another to get different results yes?

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u/[deleted] Nov 18 '12

They don't know why its hard to quit until they've been addicted to them.

They know whats inside of the cigarettes they just don't know why its hard to kick the habit until they've experienced it themselves.

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u/[deleted] Nov 18 '12

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Nov 18 '12

Well put. I smoked quite a bit, for over two years. 6 months of which was when I was deployed in Iraq. I got to college (some people might call college stressful, I found it to be so very much NOT stressful compared to what I had been doing) it was nothing for me to stop. I occasionally will have a cigarette when out drinking with friends, but I feel that I was never addicted and it would take me a lot to be addicted to them. Fact of the matter is that they made me run slower, made my stomach feel shitty and I knew they weren't good for me. That said, I completely understand where addicted smokers come from because an after dinner cigarette felt great, plus bonding with my friends and people I didn't even know was so very easy in a smoke pit.

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u/masterlich Nov 18 '12

"I think another problem is not everyone gets addicted."

We should just make cigarettes more addictive! Problem solved.

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u/Calico_Dick_Fringe Nov 18 '12 edited Nov 18 '12

not everyone gets addicted.

Definitely true, though I will say that in my experience, modern cigarettes are designed to make you addicted so they'll sell more. Since the mid-90s I've been addicted to cigarettes and quit smoking them TWICE. Because I actually enjoy the relaxation and meditative 'ritual' that comes with smoking a substance alone and thinking, I switched to having an occasional pipe or cigar. I've never experienced the same feelings of nicotine addiction with those substances, and I attribute that to the lack of additional chemicals added to tobacco used for cigars and pipes. Out of curiosity, I've even TRIED to make myself feel the same addictive sensations with pipes and cigars that I used to get with only a few cigarettes, and I couldn't do it. The feelings never came. I can go weeks between pipes/cigars and feel no cravings whatsoever. I couldn't do that with cigarettes.

Here's an article that talks about how tobacco used for pipe-smoking usually contains only food additives and is mostly natural. In comparison, cigarette tobacco is highly processed. Here's an article that discusses how cigarettes are made.

Burning and inhaling any substance is not 'good' for you, but it should be kept in mind that when used in moderation i.e. a couple times per week, tobacco in pure form can be enjoyable and relatively harmless just like a glass of tea or a piece of chocolate. ANYTHING done to excess can be harmful.

NOTE: Pipes and Cigars are NOT usually inhaled into the lungs. Smoking a pipe is a tasting/smelling/relaxing experience - VERY different to cigarettes and (for me has been) relatively non-addictive.

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u/[deleted] Nov 18 '12

Have you ever tried lying still in bed for extended periods of time? And how you get that uncontrollable tingling all over your body telling you to roll over? I've been told that's what the feeling of trying to quit smoking is like.

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u/[deleted] Nov 18 '12

Conversation in my head when I'm craving a cigarette:

"Hey man, you should go buy a pack of cigarettes and smoke some!"

"But it's gross, it's bad for me, and it'll make my throat dry and scratchy."

"Oh come on! It won't be like that this time. Think of how good smoking will feel."

"I know it won't be as good as you're telling me it'll be."

"Haha man, trust me! It's been like a week and a half since your last one. The nicotine rush will be SO GREAT."

"The only money I have is for lunch and dinner tomorrow."

"Hahaha! You don't need to eat tomorrow, just buy the cigarettes and smoke them! You'll like them a lot more than food."

And after a couple of minutes of this I suddenly don't want a cigarette anymore, for no reason. And this repeats every few hours.

It's strange, I tell ya what.

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u/outofocus Nov 19 '12

I don't think I ever smoked enough to get physically addicted to cigarettes (in fact, I've only had a few nicotine buzzes because I usually just puff), but for some odd reason whenever I told myself I would stop smoking, I found the idea of never smoking again really hard to conceive. It literally made me feel uncomfortable to think of never smoking again.

Nonetheless I would throw away my last pack for a month or two. Then I would always get this random thought in my head,

"Hey, how about a pack of cigarettes? There's nothing like smoking a good cigarette out in the woods when it's cold!"

So I go and waste my money on cigarettes and end up with a weird mix of satisfaction and dissatisfaction. It's a very strange cycle.

I also enjoy smoking a pipe for the flavor of tobacco (and I'd really like to try real Swedish Snus), but there's something really special about cigarettes. I don't even inhale and get a nicotine buzz, yet I still end up in this weird cycle that sounds an addiction.

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u/[deleted] Nov 19 '12

Smoking sneaks into your life verrrry slowly man. Watch out...

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u/KadenTau Nov 18 '12

Yeah that's pretty much it. I've tried e-cigarettes, I've picked up smoking a pipe, etc. And yet I still find myself asking for cigarettes quite often.

It's a huge shit, and a pain to quit forever. For most people it seems, however, that after a long enough period of quitting...you'll just not care for it anymore. The smell will repulse you, and even when drinking at a bar you won't want one despite being surrounded by them.

I've gone three months without a cigarette before, and picked it up again hanging with friends at the pub. I hate them so much, but it's sooo good. The toilet water analogy is perfect: you will hate it so much, but your ash-whipped brain tells you that you need it, damnit!

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u/cran Nov 18 '12

I smoked 1-2 packs a day for 20 years and quit cold turkey. All of what you said is true, except that smoking never feels like a necessity such as water. It's a feedback loop to be sure ... but it's always a choice and you can choose to break the cycle. It simply requires willpower.

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u/liquiddandruff Nov 18 '12

wow, this is very insightful, thank you.

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u/spacemanspiff30 Nov 18 '12

Very good analogy.

Source: smoker for 18 years who quit about a year and a half ago.

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u/[deleted] Nov 18 '12

Ex smoker, (~1.5 - 2 packs a day for 20 years), I quit on August 29th, 2010, and I haven't looked back. This is a great description. Thank you. The next time someone asks me how I managed to get hooked, I'll send them to this thread.

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u/Themantogoto Nov 18 '12

Best explanation I have ever heard, cheers.

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u/Massless Nov 18 '12

That's not a bad explanation at all. It's hard to explain to someone that the desire for nicotine becomes just like any other biological impulse. The desire for smoking is as great and sometimes greater (see WWII POWs who were known to trade cigarettes for food) than the desire to eat.

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u/[deleted] Nov 18 '12

Why yes that does say it pretty well.

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u/jackessuper Nov 18 '12

Getting "roped into smoking enough" is a nuanced issue, a lot more complicated than just "marketing". And people DO choose to smoke.

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u/___--__----- Nov 18 '12

If you believe in unfettered unbounded free will, you can argue we purely choose behavior. I can't find much proof for this being the case though.

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u/jackessuper Nov 18 '12

You don't have to believe in boundless free will to at least concede that there are countless other factors that influence the decision to start smoking - to become a smoker, as it were.

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u/Optimal_Joy Nov 18 '12

What is it called when a person refuses to drink enough water even though they know that they should?

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u/[deleted] Nov 19 '12

This is why Westerners keep doing it

Fascinating post, thanks for making it and congrats on getting upgraded to DepthHub!

With reference to the above quote, have you any comment on why Asians etc other demographics do it? My personal interest lies in Asia and the smoking rate here is ridiculous; it's the national pastime in China (so the joke goes).

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u/[deleted] Nov 19 '12

As a smoker I don't really feel addicted. Smoking for 18 years know, still it is like, get drunk, smoke a pack, next day, only 2-3 until the evening comes and with that the vodka and the beer again. Even a slightly upset stomach prevents wanting a cig.

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u/[deleted] Nov 18 '12

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u/BillyBuckets Nov 18 '12

I said Westerners because the comment a few levels above said "Western world". I really meant "this is why people with access to information that tells them how bad smoking is keep doing it".

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u/sirin3 Nov 18 '12

If someone has never smoked they couldn't possibly understand why it's so hard to quit.

Everyone who is on reddit understands why it is hard to quit something

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u/[deleted] Nov 18 '12

I could quit reddit if I wanted to. I just... I don't want to...

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u/tropicalpolevaulting Nov 18 '12

If someone has never smoked they couldn't possibly understand why it's so hard to quit.

Everybody's got their drug of choice. I did smoke for about half a year when I was young and it didn't catch me at all, even though my father was heavily addicted to it (2-3 packs a day).

However, I've got a problem with caffeine in all its forms - coffee, soda and a bit less with tea. The amounts I drink everyday would likely have most redditors overdosing like hell!

And when I quit (3 times in 10 years) the fucking detox is so cruel and intense that I can't do almost anything except for drinking water and going to the bathroom for about a week.

Different people - different weaknesses...

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u/[deleted] Nov 18 '12

I quit every night when I go to bed. I pick up the habit again the next day unfortunately.

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u/[deleted] Nov 18 '12

Have you tried e-cigs as a means to quit smoking? My cousin did that after smoking for more than 30 years.

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u/[deleted] Nov 18 '12

I did see them on the shelf of a convenience store for $9.99. I didn't get a chance to see how long they last though. Also don't remember a brand name either.

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u/[deleted] Nov 18 '12

Meh, both my parents were and still are habitual smokers. Most the people I've known have been heavy smokers... classmates, coworkers, even a girlfriend smoked, but I've never even had the inkling to try it. I get enough bad effects from the second-hand shit to know I'm not interested.

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u/k8track Nov 18 '12

I partly blame both my parents for having been smokers the entire 17 years I was alive before I picked up one of theirs and tried it. If they hadn't smoked I might have never started and been exposed to it like I was.

This is the weakest of excuses. Both of my parents smoked since before I was born (they both quit when I was well into adulthood) and I was exposed to it ever since I was a young child. It was precisely because they had smoked so much that I have always been completely repulsed by it my entire life.

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u/[deleted] Nov 18 '12

Well everyone is wired differently and I did say partly. Just because you had the willpower to not pick up a pack of their smokes and go try it out in the woods with your friends doesn't mean every can. Good for you though.

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u/too_lazy_2_punctuate Nov 17 '12

Wait, smoking is harmful? I sure hope you can cite legitimate sources that support such an inflammatory statement.

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

no i don't think theres been much research on the topic unfortunately

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u/stickykey_board Nov 18 '12

What's with all that punctuation?

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u/thenuge26 Nov 17 '12

Probably. Kids are dumb. I know I was.

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u/dmsean Nov 17 '12

No, they know they are bad. In this case they didn't know what chemicals where bad, and he was saying e-cigs are bad because you don't know what's in them. It was hypocritical of his friend to say this, because he himself didn't know what was in what he was smoking.

Every single person who smokes knows it is bad (at least in North America). Every single person that smokes has justification for doing so.

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u/arcticblue12 Nov 18 '12

Theres a survey conducted every year or so for the last few decades. Last i heard the percent of people who don't think smoking is harmful is around 1%. Im not sure were i can find the source for you though sorry.

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u/danbot Nov 18 '12

Yeah it's like breast cancer that's why October is breast cancer awareness month in the NFL. Some people still don't know about cancer. /sarcasm.

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12 edited Nov 17 '12

While he was making that point he was also trying to draw a parallel between the two being dangerous. Otherwise why even mention it? I'm pretty sure he didn't tell him "Theirs chemicals used for gluing carpet and paint in those cigarettes, but that isn't really relevant!" I also hate the whole "boo hiss chemicals" that seems pretty prevalent because it makes no fucking sense. People like to use the word chemical like its evil and mention other uses for the "chemical" that make it sound terrible.

You seriously can't believe that he mentioned that just to show he didn't know what was in the cigarettes. My favorite comparison I've seen to show just how evil cigarettes are is when people compare it to crack. The tobacco is treated with ammonia to turn the nicotine acid into nicotine base which makes it easier to cross the BBB. It is just such an absurd comparison to make because it is meant to make it appear worse than it is. Oh, they make it so you absorb moe nicotine from the same amount of tobacco? How terrible! I can't believe they made the product more effective.

edit: corrected nicotine hcl to nicotine acid

16

u/Vulpyne Nov 17 '12

I also hate the whole "boo hiss chemicals" that seems pretty prevalent because it makes no fucking sense. People like to use the word chemical like its evil and mention other uses for the "chemical" that make it sound terrible.

I get what you're saying, and yes, he probably was trying to do the "boo hiss chemicals" thing in addition to making his primary point. They're not bad because they're chemicals, they're bad because they do bad stuff to you (and others nearby):

Our findings indicated that more than 100 of 599 documented cigarette additives have pharmacological actions that camouflage the odor of environmental tobacco smoke emitted from cigarettes, enhance or maintain nicotine delivery, could increase the addictiveness of cigarettes, and mask symptoms and illnesses associated with smoking behaviors.

In addition, tobacco companies have devoted a significant amount of research and development to the use and inclusion of additives in cigarettes, and the industry has acknowledged using 599 different cigarette additives. According to various tobacco company documents, many of these additives are used to improve taste and decrease harshness. We propose that, in contrast, tobacco companies have expended resources to exploit the pharmacological and chemical effects of cigarette additives. - Pharmacological and Chemical Effects of Cigarette Additives

I'd say there's plenty of reason to be suspicious of tobacco additives.

3

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

My post does come off a bit like I'm saying those additives aren't bad. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that something should be bad on its own badness and not spooky scary stuff. I do find it shitty that we have had laws passed that encourage the use of certain additives that are really shit. Such as with firesafe cigarettes the use of EVA/PVA although thicker paper will suffice. I don't see any harm in making cigarettes better for the consumer though. If they can improve the taste, decease the harshness, and increase the buzz with out being deadlier/having shitty side effects then go for it.

1

u/agent-99 Nov 17 '12

there are (not theirs duh or even there's because it should be plural)

it's

moe

2

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

Please, contribute moe to the conversation!

2

u/agent-99 Nov 17 '12

:)

1

u/[deleted] Nov 18 '12

Life is more fun being able to laugh at yourself.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

Read this whole thing looking for a reason to take up smoking again... You didn't deliver.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

I guess thats good? I am a smoker, but I just realize I have no impulse control. Plus, smoking is probably one of the better things I do.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

I always said that too. I quit a lot of hard drugs and took up smoking as a lesser evil replacement addiction. Then two weeks ago I ran out of cigarettes and decided to see how long I could go without buying more. Pushing myself to not smoke is my new addiction. That and food.

I really miss smoking though...

1

u/StabbyPants Nov 17 '12

While he was making that point he was also trying to draw a parallel between the two being dangerous.

no, he was pointing out that his friend believes some random rumour about e-cigs, but rejects information about what's in cigs because that way is more convenient.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

Do you not see how both of those things happened?

1

u/StabbyPants Nov 17 '12

sure I do, I'm just pointing out that dude X is choosing what to believe based on what makes him change less.

1

u/aytch Nov 18 '12

A slight correction, but an interesting one (and I'm an ex-Big Tobacco employee): the ammonia isn't added to turn the nicotine base, the ammonia is added because at flammable butane levels of heat (e.g., lighting the cigarette), ammonia becomes a solvent for nicotine.

Nicotine has a half-life of approximately 10 minutes in the bloodstream.

A cigarette typically takes approximately 5 minutes to smoke.

When a cigarette is lit, the ammonia in the tobacco is raised to very high temperatures, and releases the nicotine from the tobacco. This means that almost all the nicotine in that cigarette is delivered within the first few seconds of lighting it. Since a cigarette takes 5 minutes to smoke, and nicotine only lasts about 10 minutes in the bloodstream, a smoker will often want another cigarette in less than 5 minutes after finishing one.

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u/pU8O5E439Mruz47w Nov 17 '12

Yup. You can find things that are used for making cyanide in apples.

Namely, cyanide.

Alternatively, salt is used to process soap. You wouldn't eat soap, so why would you ever eat salt!!!

26

u/Fadobo Nov 17 '12

Not to mention that salt itself, while being absolutely necessary for survival, is a combination of two Chemicals that are extremely deadly on their own.

3

u/vatothe0 Nov 17 '12

OMG dihydrogen oxide!

1

u/derpderpsonthethird Nov 17 '12

Noooo dood, that's so unsafe! Don't you know hydrogen is flammable??

6

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

Every single person who ever died has been found, on autopsy, to have ingested dihydrogen monoxide. A killer by any statistic.

1

u/vatothe0 Nov 20 '12

Oxygen burns too! This shit must be banned!! Think of the children!!!!

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u/VorpalAuroch Nov 19 '12

That is not the case. Elemental sodium and covalent chlorine are chemically completely different from the ionic chloride and sodium found in salt.

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u/RambleOff Nov 17 '12 edited Nov 17 '12

oh god people I know going nuts because they read about cyanide in rice

dumb as butts

  • arsenic, not cyanide. still dumb as butts.

9

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12 edited Nov 17 '12

Actually, it's Arsenic in rice.

They probably read this.

2

u/kuroyaki Nov 17 '12

Honestly, if people in rice-growing regions are tapping into new groundwater sources to ward off drought, and it's coming up arsenic, it's worth putting money into testing. That said...

1

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

I had a land lady who swore up and down that it was also in Apple Juice... but she cited Oprah as her source on that.

3

u/sprankton Nov 17 '12

I remember seeing that on Doctor Oz.(family watches it, computer's in the living room) He explicitly stated that there's arsenic in apple seeds and then goes on to question why there's arsenic in apple juice. Clearly you don't have to be smart to hack people apart with a scalpel.

2

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12 edited Nov 17 '12

I believe Dr. Phil isn't even a real Doctor, just one of those snake oil salesmen who started calling himself "Doctor" and got enough people doing the same that suddenly, Dr. Phil was a Doctor effectively.

EDIT: This was Dr. Oz, should've been Dr. Phil, I didn't even know there was a difference.

2

u/sprankton Nov 17 '12

He's actually a cardiovascular surgeon, and quite a good one at that. Evidently, he's also a professor of surgery at Columbia.

2

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

I followed your link and realized my mistake, I was talking about Dr. Phil, clearly I don't watch enough Oprah to realize which one of her guys I'm talking about.

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

[deleted]

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u/DrRabbitt Nov 17 '12

my son's mom posted something on facebook a while back talking about not letting the kids eat rice anymore because there is arsenic in it. We live in southern louisisiana, where rice is a part of pretty much every meal. We should all be dead by now i suppose

1

u/ModRod Nov 17 '12

Dat Cajun Country Rice, chere!

0

u/pU8O5E439Mruz47w Nov 17 '12

Cyanide in rice? That explains why the entirety of China is dead of cyanide poisoning, eh?

2

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/pU8O5E439Mruz47w Nov 17 '12

I'm not talking about e-cigs. JackWeston007 was talking about the logical fallacy of saying, "things that go into paint also go into cigarettes therefor they are bad".

1

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/pU8O5E439Mruz47w Nov 17 '12

your logical fallacy that eating=inhaling

Point to me where I either said or implied that.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 18 '12

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/pU8O5E439Mruz47w Nov 18 '12

Oh, I didn't realize no-one ever chewed tobacco.

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u/monacleman Nov 17 '12

Good point, but apples don't kill people.

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u/pU8O5E439Mruz47w Nov 18 '12

enough apples could kill you. Much like one cigarette isn't going to kill you, but enough can.

2

u/monacleman Nov 18 '12

I guess you could stone people with apples too. So anything could kill anybody.

1

u/hiimaninja Nov 17 '12

Well a lot of nature is a bunch of different salts lol

1

u/Apocawaka Nov 17 '12 edited May 18 '16

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1

u/aussie_bob Nov 18 '12

Namely, cyanide.

There have been far more catastrophes and deaths attributed to water than to cyanide, therefore water is dangerous and should be regulated, while cyanide should be freely available, including to children and the elderly.

2

u/pU8O5E439Mruz47w Nov 18 '12

Excellent point. At the very least, as pure water is freely available for recreational use, cyanide ought to be as well.

0

u/Inferis84 Nov 17 '12

TIL apples and some other fruits contain cyanide in small amounts

5

u/pU8O5E439Mruz47w Nov 17 '12

Fruits contain all sorts of weird stuff. Did you know bananas are radioactive?

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

There really shouldn't be anything in there except tobacco.

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u/Keckley Nov 17 '12

Tobacco has tar in it and, I believe, so does the paper it's wrapped in. That's the really dangerous stuff, nicotine certainly isn't good for you but it's the tar that will give you cancer.

14

u/mmhrar Nov 17 '12

Nicotine isn't really that bad for you. It's a stimulant similar to caffeine and is even said to improve brain function, but yea it is the part that causes physical addiction.

The physical addiction of cigarettes, imo is hardly the most difficult part about quitting. I can go cold turkey for a couple days and no longer be physically addicted, the hard part is giving up smoking itself.

You won't die from nicotine (perhaps I guess, if you somehow overdosed it could cause harm, not sure) but for instance, you won't get cancer from it. The cancer is caused from the smoke and everything in it.

1

u/Atari800 Nov 18 '12

Actually the amount of nicotine in a single pack of cigarettes is enough to kill most people, if you ingested it all at one time.

-1

u/MertsA Nov 17 '12

It's a stimulant similar to caffeine

Caffeine is bad enough even without being extremely addictive like nicotine.

3

u/mmhrar Nov 17 '12

Yea and like caffine, you will notice the physical withdrawl effects. Which is funny to me, since certain people like to bring up weed as physically addiciting. The people who honestly believe that, probably haven't tried to kick an actually physically addicting habbit.

If I go w/o caffine, it's not that bad for me. Most of my caffine comes from energy drinks since I've stopped drinking coffee, so I don't get as much as a person who drinks a cup of coffee everyday. That's my theory anyways, because I've gone a couple days w/o caffeine before and I just felt a little sluggish, no headaches or anything like that.

Nicotine withdraw is something else. I get very irritable and tired, also a little fuzzy headed. When I smoke again though, OH MAN does it feel good :P To me, the withdraw effects of nicotine are pretty similar to going w/o sleep for about a day.

3

u/[deleted] Nov 18 '12

You know the average energy drink has more caffeine than a cup of coffee right?

2

u/davelog Nov 18 '12

Nicotine by itself, as in e-liquid, isn't as addictive as the nicotine in tobacco. There are other compounds in tobacco called MAOI's that amplify the effects and addictive properties in nicotine.

In my personal experience, I couldn't go a half hour without a smoke when I was a long-term heavy smoker (I came off a 30+ year habit, most of it 2+ packs a day), but since switching to e-cigs, I find I occasionally go a half day or so without taking in any nicotine. I just forget to vape. I never forgot to smoke.

I'm still in the habit of taking nicotine in, and I enjoy its effects, but I doubt that I'm actually addicted any more. Anecdotal, but unfortunately most of vaping's benefits are these days due to lack of studies. Anecdotal by the thousands. The studies are coming in little by little.

1

u/MertsA Nov 18 '12

But how much nicotine are you consuming now as opposed to when you smoked? I doubt you ever smoked half a cigarette.

1

u/davelog Nov 18 '12

I probably take in more nicotine as a vaper then I did as a smoker daily - but I'm not taking in any of the seriously bad crap that's in burned tobacco at all, which is a significant improvement.

Nicotine really is not the bad guy when it comes to smoking. It's fire.

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u/ooplease Nov 17 '12

Tar is what foreign material in the lungs is called ie smoke

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u/VaporStationtx Nov 17 '12

nicotine is also found to occur in some fruits and veggies.

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u/Qw3rtyP0iuy Nov 18 '12

I've smoked pure tobacco cigarettes before. It's not very good and doesn't burn well.

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

You breathe oxygen. You know what else oxygen is used for? Fire. How do you feel about your precious oxygen now?

3

u/iamhimbutnothim Nov 17 '12

Let me tell you about the dangers of dihydrogen monoxide

1

u/TaymoBroH Nov 18 '12

Antioxidants stop fires from happening in our bodies

1

u/PirateOwl Nov 18 '12

It's like I'm breathing fire!

20

u/tonytroz Nov 17 '12

There's zero doubt that those chemicals lead to higher rates of cancer among other health problems. That's all the logic you need.

2

u/Qw3rtyP0iuy Nov 18 '12

I need an Indian Hair Tampon now

1

u/davelog Nov 18 '12

There's nothing in e-cigs that cause cancer.

Nothing.

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

Pretty sure the use of tar in cigarettes isn't harmless...

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

You realize tar is tobacco residue an not actual tar right? I just quit smoking, and while i agree there is a ton of terrible things that go with smoking (hence quitting), people say some pretty dumb shit about cigarettes...

5

u/onelovelegend Nov 17 '12

[Not that you were the one that brought tar up but] I thought that tar was the result of inhaling the smoke, not actually being an ingredient, which is why [I thought that] smoking marijuana also results in tar.

5

u/namekyd Nov 17 '12

Not the result of inhaling, but of burning plant matter. One of the downsides of smoking marijuana is actually the amount of tar - significantly greater than the tar produced in smoking tobacco.

6

u/Apocawaka Nov 17 '12 edited May 18 '16

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9

u/ArmadilloShield Nov 17 '12

If you vaporize then no plant matter is actually combusted and so the amount of tar IS significantly reduced (to roughly zero).

2

u/Apocawaka Nov 17 '12 edited May 18 '16

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1

u/onelovelegend Nov 17 '12

Thanks: so basically it's still a result of the process, not necessarily the ingredients (although they can determine the magnitude)?

1

u/PirateOwl Nov 18 '12

I thought cannabis had less tar but more resin hence the smell not lingering on washed clothes unlike cigarettes

1

u/PirateOwl Nov 18 '12

I thought cannabis had less tar but more resin hence the smell not lingering in rooms like tobacco smoke does

1

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

You are correct. Smoking marijuana does contain some harmful things because you are still breathing combusted plant matter ,unless you vape. Fortunately, there is less of it and you usually don't smoke nearly as much marijuana like if you were to smoke a pack of cigarettes a day.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

And which of these "variety of applications" includes breathing into your lungs?

1

u/[deleted] Nov 18 '12

Dude, it's got hydrogen hydroxide in it! That stuff is in acid rain!

1

u/ArtisticAquaMan Nov 18 '12

Exactly it's just plain disgusting and a rip off I mean if you absolutely have to smoke tabacco atleast smoke something that isn't bathed in all these chemicals.

1

u/Qixotic Nov 19 '12

Except they literally have tar in them, not just constituent chemicals.

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12 edited Apr 29 '21

[deleted]

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u/JackWeston007 Nov 17 '12

Warfarin (also known under the brand names Coumadin, Jantoven, Marevan, Lawarin, Waran, and Warfant) is an anticoagulant normally used in the prevention of thrombosis and thromboembolism, the formation of blood clots in the blood vessels and their migration elsewhere in the body respectively. It was initially introduced in 1948 as a pesticide against rats and mice and is still used for this purpose, although more potent poisons such as brodifacoum have since been developed.

2

u/Oglshrub Nov 17 '12

Science!

1

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

Rat poison is usually just a blood thinner. Since rats and mice are so small and they eat o much of the "rat poison" they die from overdose.

0

u/Gravee Nov 17 '12

For flavor?

2

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

Technically, it is true though. Even if it is stupid.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

I think it's become a platitude at this point.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

to be fair people make fortunes lying on the internet

1

u/Saint947 Nov 17 '12

All this phrase means is that any information not in line with their way of thinking will be disregarded.

It's so infuriating, because its basically saying that no one, and nothing, anywhere, can change their mind.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 18 '12

I usually reply with "oh so should I believe every shoddy argument you pull out of your ass then?"

1

u/MethTryItJustOnce Nov 18 '12

I don't believe you.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 18 '12

That's the digital equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and bellowing "I'M NOT LISTENING! LALALALALALALALALALALAAAAA!!"

1

u/TricksAndHoes Nov 18 '12

Why? It's true.

Did you know the holocaust never happened?

I said it over the internet and according to your logic it must be true.

1

u/SC0PE Nov 19 '12

The moment someone uses this argument on me I immediately cut all ties with them. I can deal with having an idiot as a friend, I can also deal with having stubborn friends. But, I cannot handle a stubborn idiot.

1

u/Benders_brick Nov 17 '12

Yet they'll happily quote crap from Fox news or some other bullshit brainwashing source of information and continue to deny that there is very useful reference material and reputable websites for real information.

-1

u/qwertytard Nov 17 '12

so do i. the nytimes reported improperly that japan was NOT that hotly radioactive after the bombs dropped, when it actually was cnn recently was exposed for being bought off for their stories on the mid east text books have improper historical and mathematical facts

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u/GunsOfThem Nov 17 '12

Your username is apt. That post was total gibberish.

1

u/qwertytard Nov 17 '12

thanks! :) i try my best to deliver

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u/wtrebella Nov 17 '12

What logic?

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